[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

Can you elaborate a bit on which aspects of visibility you're talking about? I drive 3 different cars/trucks on a regular basis and still don't see the issue with the Camaro.

- Is it the narrow rear windshield and the high rear end? The rear view camera is a 100% solution to whoever is bothered by this, so not even worth a mention. Also, many sedans have 3 giant headrests sticking up above the rear seat, which annoys me to no end, but interestingly nobody talks abot those.

- Is it the tiny quarter windows? This is problematic indeed, but (assuming side mirrors are set up correctly and the car has blind spot monitoring, ie it's a 3LT, 2SS or ZL1) only in ~1% of driving situations, which we gladly overlook. Also, this is just as bad in other comparable coupes.

- Is it the side windows? They're actually much better than on any other vehicle I drive, because the doors are very long and I get a ton of rearward visibility where normally the B pillar blocks my view on other cars

- Is it the A pillars? They're actually better than 2 of the 3 cars I drive regularly, so I don't think it's a problem with the Camaro per se.

- Is it the "widescreen format" windshield? This is absolutely a matter of perception, I see everything related to traffic, and the fact that I see half as much of the sky as in other cars feels totally irrelevant. Then again, I can kind of understand how this may look like a "slit" to people and bother them, psychologically speaking.
So I'd appreciate you thoughts here, honestly

I used to have this debate all the time on the Mustang forums. "You can't see out of it"..."It's like driving in a bathtub (or tank; take your pick)"

I've always maintained that I can see what I need to see. Sure, I can see MORE out of a Mustang, but I can see what I need to see out of my Camaro. Especially when the mirrors are correctly positioned. At the point that a following car passes out of my rear view I can immediately see it in my side view because of how my mirrors are set.

Similar to what @arpad_m says, the Cadillac SRX that used to be my daily actually had worse visibility than my Camaro. I could see MORE out of it, but the A-pillars could easily hide a human crossing in front of my vehicle. I learned to adjust to it.

[Devstrike]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Especially when the mirrors are correctly positioned. At the point that a following car passes out of my rear view I can immediately see it in my side view because of how my mirrors are set.

Similar to what @arpad_m says, the Cadillac SRX that used to be my daily actually had worse visibility than my Camaro. I could see MORE out of it, but the A-pillars could easily hide a human crossing in front of my vehicle. I learned to adjust to it.

This right here with the mirrors I am glad you mentioned this. If you set this correctly you won't have a problem. I have done this and will back you up on the fact that this is 100% true.


I forgot about the Cadillac SRX and I do agree that one is one worthy of a visibility complaint.

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

So, after summarizing 5 pages of input it seems to be any combination of

• Reduced overall market for muscle cars
• High price
• Poor visibilty, trunk access and rear seat accomodation
• Lack of advertising
• GM didn't do enough to refresh it
• Youth today are idiots and don't recognize a great car when they see one

Did I miss anything?

Nailed it. Well, except the last one , IMO it should say youth today (sadly) don't care, with a few notable exceptions.

We will probably never know the percentages these aspects contributed at, but the fact indeed is that it was a lethal combination of several factors.

[Red Chief]

-Decline of car culture/rise of gaming and cellphones
-Decline of masculinity, men compensating(poorly) with pickup trucks
-Inflation and wages not keeping up
-Lack of utility of muscle cars in general
-Styling has not improved since the original Gen5
-Dumb old guys saying they should bring back the Gen2 styling
-Stuck in the mud attitude about powertrains and utility of muscle cars; "Must be this, must be that"

[Bumbleboy92]

My younger cousin who is just getting his license has been sending me cars in his search (even though he’s a few years off lol). So far he’s gone through used CT4, CT5, BMW M340, M440, he asked about an older SS but ultimately he just wants something fast and not a coupe. I’ve been getting a lot of older CT5’s from him recently, for the right price a V could tempt me too lol

The Blackwing’s amazing but that price is a whole other world

[bishopts]

Originally Posted by Bumbleboy92

My younger cousin who is just getting his license has been sending me cars in his search (even though he’s a few years off lol). So far he’s gone through used CT4, CT5, BMW M340, M440, he asked about an older SS but ultimately he just wants something fast and not a coupe. I’ve been getting a lot of older CT5’s from him recently, for the right price a V could tempt me too lol

The Blackwing’s amazing but that price is a whole other world

I will probably buy an ats-v eventually. Or i will get a v6 6th gen and swap the engine from one. Ive been interested in that engine for a while now.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by ariZona28

I still think one of the contributing factors to the Camaro's sales decline was Chevrolet was a victim of their own success. Why should I buy a new '18 when my '15 was paid for and still running/looking like new? If an individual had a nice, clean '18 why roll the dice on a new '23. Etc, etc. Combine that with a wide selection of reasonable milage used 5th and 6th Gens why buy new when someone else has already eaten the depreciation? Glad I have my two '15s and I may add a 6th Gen someday but I'm not too optimistic about what gm will be rolling out in the future.

You’ve kind of hit on it but if you look at the cars that stayed in production for long stretches you can still see what it is. The Mustang is basically the same looking car as two generations ago.

What you are touching on is that there was a pent up demand for a Camaro and the people that wanted one got a Gen5.

GM’s error was when they did clinics for the Gen6 they went out and got the Camaro Faithful and asked “what do you want in the next Camaro”. They didn’t go ask Mustang owners or other sports/muscle car owners. So when GM just put out MOHR Camaro most of those people already had one.

That and the were somewhat limited to what they could do with the Alpha architecture. It already had the Ed Welborn high belt and slammed roof.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by JT6Speed

There should have been a Z/28 to compete with the Mach 1, period.

Not everyone wants or needs a 650hp boosted ZL1, that can be for the guys who hunt Shelby's maybe. The 6th gen needed a higher output N/A track weapon. IMO they already had half the recipe with the 1LE, it just should have been badged as a Z/28 from the start with a beefed up LT1, maybe putting out 530hp or so. They could have still had a 1LE nameplate, but it would be more of what a PP2 Mustang was (same hp, better/bigger tires, aero, and some suspension).

1LE is a package, Z/28 is heritage.

I believe there was one in the works, but the car was selling so badly adding another model just went away. But to your description just rebadging a 1LE would likely have been in the spirit of the Gen4 Z. And not a bad idea. It just would have been a step back from what the Gen5 car was.

530 would have been a dream though. The Corvette got an all new engine and barely got to 495.

Good thoughts.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by bishopts

What are you even talking about? Since i like my car i can see out of it just fine but people that don't like them or own them can't see out?
Try and make that make sense.

Like i said dumb kids that just came from a sedan have problems, no one that knows how to adjust a seat and use mirrors will have problems any more than any other coupe.

Ok some people love Brussels sprouts. When I was a kid I had to burry it in ketchup to tolerate it.

You’ve fallen into ice trap of “it works just fine for me so it should be fine for everybody else”

Remember Bob Lutz said “you can sell a young man’s car to an old man but you can’t sell an old man’s car to a young man”. Same thing again.

I would have had one of the first Camaros in the Chicagoland area if they at least designed it to get two sets of golf clubs in the trunk. 2 sets fit just fine in the Gen5 and two sets fir easily in the other Alpha coupe. But for the Gen6 they made choices. So for anyone else like me? Lost sales.

As I’ve said, the Gen6 was designed for Camaro owners. It was never intended to have broad appeal.

But you are wrong about just adjusting your seat. Lol, I’m intimately knowledgeable on the SAE tools used for visibility. I even created some of those packaging tools for heavy trucks.

As MartinJim points out, you can see what you need to see. The problem with the Camaro is the “ perception” a new customer will feel when they just sit in the car in a showroom. The Welborn high belt/slammed roof results in a smaller side glass.

Glad you love yours. The question wasn’t why you love yours. The question is why you did sales continue to drop over time. You and the folks that bought and love their Gen6 Camaros was not nearly enough to sustain the car.

[Number 3]

A key piece of data that I’ve never seen is the % of female buyers, Mustang vs Camaro.

I do recall in the Gen4 timeframe that Camaro V8 sales were about on par with Mustang V8 sales.

And this touches on the Reuss comments that a next Gen car would have to be more practical which I interpret as having broader appeal which can be further thought to mean appeal to women buyers.

Now if GM wants to just slot a new Camaro into the old Corvette market and have a V8 only and price it like a low volume car ($55,000 for a base Camaro?) and give up all pretentious of it being just a “sporty coupe” that would be interesting.

[Mark20242SS]

Maybe it is because I have driven Mustangs for the past several years, had 2 S550's and 1 S650 recently, but I had no problem adjusting to the Camaro, just use your 3 mirrors. be aware of what is around you.
we even are having a little snow this morning and I put it in snow mode and took it easy and no issues. I do see other people driving too fast though, kinda worries me. I had the pilot sport 4 all seasons put on.
In the past with the Mustangs I would run michelin or bridgestone snow tires.
hardly anyone runs snow tires here though.
I am holding out hope that GM will bring back the Camaro soon, especially since they are bringing out the new gen small block engines.
not sure what else I would get if they don't bring it back in the future.
since the Camaro is so much better than Mustangs, would be hard to go back to GT Mustangs now.
what else would all go to if you could not get another Camaro in the future?
pretty limited choices now.

[m6-lt1]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

Can you elaborate a bit on which aspects of visibility you're talking about? I drive 3 different cars/trucks on a regular basis and still don't see the issue with the Camaro.

- Is it the narrow rear windshield and the high rear end? The rear view camera is a 100% solution to whoever is bothered by this, so not even worth a mention. Also, many sedans have 3 giant headrests sticking up above the rear seat, which annoys me to no end, but interestingly nobody talks about those.

- Is it the tiny quarter windows? This is problematic indeed, but (assuming side mirrors are set up correctly and the car has blind spot monitoring, ie it's a 3LT, 2SS or ZL1) only in ~1% of driving situations, which we gladly overlook. Also, this is just as bad in other comparable coupes.

- Is it the side windows? They're actually much better than on any other vehicle I drive, because the doors are very long and I get a ton of rearward visibility where normally the B pillar blocks my view on other cars.

- Is it the A pillars? They're actually better than 2 of the 3 cars I drive regularly, so I don't think it's a problem with the Camaro per se.

- Is it the "widescreen format" windshield? This is absolutely a matter of perception, I see everything related to traffic, and the fact that I see half as much of the sky as in other cars feels totally irrelevant. Then again, I can kind of understand how this may look like a "slit" to people and bother them, psychologically speaking.
So I'd appreciate your thoughts here, honestly

I’ll start by saying you and I have talked about one specific visibility issue where when you are stopped at an angle trying to make a left turn, we can’t see anything to our right. That being said, I THINK the Mustang and others like it would suffer from that too. The rear quarter windows are smaller so MAYBE it’s only a Camaro issue but I can’t say for sure as I never got into one of those situations when I had a Mustang. Anyway that’s one visibility issue that I have figured out how to compromise and avoid. I accept that it may be an issue with ALL coupes, I just haven’t tried that turn in anything else besides sedans which you can see out of in that specific situation.

The narrow rear windshield I don’t care about at all. Never had an issue there but I know some people like to be able to see more out of it. I only use my rearview camera on track because obviously every ounce of visibility helps there.

The side windows are what is the biggest shock to me when I get into other cars. I actually agree at times, the longer side windows have helped me see better than out of my truck/prior hatchback at a specific kind of turn. That being said I can’t see anything when I look out of them to the side very well. Specifically in parking areas where I’m trying to make sure I don’t run anything over. As Martin said, I see what I NEED to see well enough. It just would be nice to be able to see more. Other manufacturers have figured out how to do it, so it’s just a bit frustrating that GM didn’t. I could see way more out the side of a C6 Z06 than my Camaro. Also a helmet does not fit through the windows and some larger items in general that I’d like to be able to grab when people hand me stuff.

I have ZERO issues with blind spots to the side since my mirrors are adjusted right. I don’t even think I have any blind spots I did have issues with the sensors though but I figured out I had to clean the ones in bumper as those are connected to the mirror

I do have issues with the a pillar but I think that’s an issue with all cars these days.

I do dislike how small the windshield is. Sometimes I have to adjust my head to see a light turn green if I am first in line. My main issue is I feel I could see over the hood better in the C6/7 and Mustang than my Camaro.

To summarize everything I wrote, I see what I need to, it would just be nice to see MORE as I am able to in other sports cars. My bigger issue with the Camaro is a lack of interior storage space, slightly less space to reach in the back of the Camaro and the trunk opening is annoying. I need a bigger cooler for track days but I am stuck using a smaller one. One of the reasons I daily a truck now is so I can tow my Camaro and EASILY fit everything I need.

I can’t imagine taking it on a road trip but taking my Mustang on one was great. Didn’t have any issues. I can’t imagine taking see people feeling a bit claustrophobic after sitting in the Camaro for a while due to its tank like nature.

[cthulhucaller]

I daily drive my '22 SS, about 10k miles per year. There is once in a while when it's annoying that I can't get something in the trunk, but can usually wedge stuff in the passenger seat for the ride home. Visibility stopped being a worry on day two of driving it, once I had all my mirrors figured out. Considering the first time I ever drove a 6th gen, it was from Detroit to Atlanta (actually the first start, straight from Joe's dealership to the interstate headed south) I got used to it quicker than most. What is funny, is that if my drive my wife's civic somewhere, it's like sitting in a movie theater with that huge screen in front of me. She is afraid to drive my car, and never has done.

Having had a mess of Camaros and Corvettes in the past, I can say that this has been hands down my favorite daily driver yet. I also fully understand why most people don't want one. The area I live in is covered up with pickups, all the makes of CUV type cars, and a ridiculous amount of Teslas. Most people in my area can afford cars they like, and those are the types of cars they appear to like. It is what it is.

When I say best daily driver, I'm going with the whole experience. For me, it's never really a matter of having to drive, but getting to. I actually enjoy the driving, and one of the side benefits is that I get where I need to be. Most of the time, I don't take the shortest path, or the fastest, but I would rather take the more enjoyable routes. The right car keeps it that way.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by cthulhucaller

I daily drive my '22 SS, about 10k miles per year. There is once in a while when it's annoying that I can't get something in the trunk, but can usually wedge stuff in the passenger seat for the ride home. Visibility stopped being a worry on day two of driving it, once I had all my mirrors figured out. Considering the first time I ever drove a 6th gen, it was from Detroit to Atlanta (actually the first start, straight from Joe's dealership to the interstate headed south) I got used to it quicker than most. What is funny, is that if my drive my wife's civic somewhere, it's like sitting in a movie theater with that huge screen in front of me. She is afraid to drive my car, and never has done.

Having had a mess of Camaros and Corvettes in the past, I can say that this has been hands down my favorite daily driver yet. I also fully understand why most people don't want one. The area I live in is covered up with pickups, all the makes of CUV type cars, and a ridiculous amount of Teslas. Most people in my area can afford cars they like, and those are the types of cars they appear to like. It is what it is.

When I say best daily driver, I'm going with the whole experience. For me, it's never really a matter of having to drive, but getting to. I actually enjoy the driving, and one of the side benefits is that I get where I need to be. Most of the time, I don't take the shortest path, or the fastest, but I would rather take the more enjoyable routes. The right car keeps it that way.

Well said. The bold is what sets people on this site apart from the general populace. We want to experience every aspect of driving, whereas people who want cookie-cutter CUVs want to be able to manage all of their errands and responsibilities when they drive. Then there's the people who buy a vehicle based on whether or not it has "full self driving" so all they have to do is arrive.