[2023_ZL1-AUTO]

Even with my build, I originally received a lot of comments questions the amount of rwtq compared to my rwhp #'s. I remember asking Katech about this, and if I remember correctly they mentioned: We tune on the safer side to protect the engine, we don't want you breaking anything that doesn't need broken. (I could be wrong, but it's up through my posts on my build thread somewhere!

[ZL1_1LE]

Originally Posted by 2023_ZL1-AUTO

Even with my build, I originally received a lot of comments questions the amount of rwtq compared to my rwhp #'s. I remember asking Katech about this, and if I remember correctly they mentioned: We tune on the safer side to protect the engine, we don't want you breaking anything that doesn't need broken. (I could be wrong, but it's up through my posts on my build thread somewhere!

I may have missed it, but I don't think it was Katech that did the original tune that people were questioning. This is a long thread though so I may have missed it at some point I suppose.

[ZLRob]

Originally Posted by ZL1_1LE

There is a dozen ways to skin a cat, and as we've already covered everyone's cars are different, modifications/parts/use case etc. Great info in here thus far.

This right here. There's more than one way to reach a desired outcome and to say and have the mentality that, "it's my way, or the highway" when it comes to automotive and especially the performance sector of it is just asinine.

[2023_ZL1-AUTO]

Originally Posted by ZL1_1LE

I may have missed it, but I don't think it was Katech that did the original tune that people were questioning. This is a long thread though so I may have missed it at some point I suppose.

They didn't... I was giving an example of my tune with lower out expected torque from the dig vs rwhp !

[JANNETTYRACING]

Originally Posted by ZLRob

This right here. There's more than one way to reach a desired outcome and to say and have the mentality that, "it's my way, or the highway." When it comes to automotive and especially the performance sector of it is just asinine.

Am I wrong in assuming you are talking about Me?

[ZLRob]

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

Am I wrong in assuming you are talking about Me?

I'm talking about in general. I haven't dealt with you on a personal level to know if that's how you are with folks, but I have dealt with more than my fair share of people in my years in the industry to know that that approach and methodology is going to rub people the wrong way and lose customers in the process because of it.

[KingLT1]

Originally Posted by ZL1_1LE

There is a dozen ways to skin a cat, and as we've already covered everyone's cars are different, modifications/parts/use case etc. Great info in here thus far.

edit: Jannetty where is that post you quoted from lol? I'm trying to go back and read on what page for more context but couldn't find it.

I was trying to edit it from my phone to clarify a couple things and deleted the damn thing by accident. I didn't feel like attempting to retype it all. Got too busy...was going to make a nother post when I had time.

[KingLT1]

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

Thanks for sharing.

Peak torque is where things can get ugly in a hurry, I purposely leave them a litte low there becuase in the event you get some bad gas it won't tear it self apart, it is easier on the engine components where we are doubling factory rated HP and Torque.

Torque is Mean on parts due to cycle time if that makes sense.

Example, I once destroyed a manual transmission (cleaned the teeth off 5th gear) in my Diesel truck by installing an overdrive on the back of the trans, and operating the truck at Peak torque 1400 rpm vs 1800 rpm on the highway.

The higher torque at lower rpm spreads out the power strokes hammering the parts like a giant sledge hammer.

This roughly illustrates what I am talking about.

Typically the extra torque is useless on a street tire anyway, (spinning ain't winning).

As we get further from peak torque we need to roll in more timing to keep cylinder pressure up and carry the torque and is not where the destruction occurs.

Im 61 this year, I started working on and tuning engines of all kinds starting at 5 years old thanks to my Grandfather, Tool maker and Genius and in my eyes.

I share the 56 years of engine tuning experience to help people understand why I do what I do.

Yes I agree...If I was tuning mass amounts of cars and dealing with customers that are not real knowledgeable with the subject, I for sure would be very conservative. However these cars should easily make the same TQ and HP with a stock ported blower. If the Torque is down 50+ ft lbs, that tells me the timing is light through the curve. If you don't want torque then take the PD supercharger off and run a Centri.

Imo the shops that are running 10-12 degrees less timing through peak tq vs peak power are doing this to help with traction because everyone wants 1000hp and run all season tires ..and potentially keep the car on the road with a novice driver behind the wheel vs engine longevity.

I have been flogging my SLB LT1 for years with 10-11 psi and I run 17-18 degrees around peak torque and 20 up top on E60. A cam LT4 should be able to take significantly more imo. That being said I wouldn't even tune someone's SLB LT1 with boost remotely. I would likely refer them to someone else.

[JANNETTYRACING]

Originally Posted by ZLRob

I'm talking about in general. I haven't dealt with you on a personal level to know if that's how you are with folks, but I have dealt with more than my fair share of people in my years in the industry to know that that approach and methodology is going to rub people the wrong way and lose customers in the process because of it.

Thanks for clearifying.

[2023_ZL1-AUTO]

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

Thanks for clearifying.

I will say this about Ted! Over a year ago, I contacted him about additional mod work to my car. He knew then exactly how my build needed to be. And to a point, I give him kudo's for "not" taking my build on, as I wanted to do it in stages. But, today my build is mostly where he told me it needed to be. The only difference is, I think, if I would have just opened the checkbook up back then and had Ted do the build. I would be sitting on a full DI build with a Maggie and no port, probably running E50 to E60. I'm not saying that is a bad thing. I saying that would be a difference in my build from back then to now! Ted, you were spot on my friend!

[Patriot Motorsports USA]

Originally Posted by KingLT1

Yes I agree...If I was tuning mass amounts of cars and dealing with customers that are not real knowledgeable with the subject, I for sure would be very conservative. However these cars should easily make the same TQ and HP with a stock ported blower. If the Torque is down 50+ ft lbs, that tells me the timing is light through the curve.

We have been tuning masses of cars with zero input data for two decades for OEM Manufacturers, Aftermarket Tuning Tool companies and for the past ten years three OEMs for spec ECUs in various racing organizations around the World. Sure they are softer with a few more safeguards, but the difference is we also have the test vehicles where we do take it to the absolute limit, where we do lean it out so it runs clean and we know the fuel isn't low grade or any other extenuating circumstance... that's my car and our Porsche GT3 RS & Cup cars. Finding these limitations also reveals how the teams can be cheating ECU data inputs as well, so when we scan logs or see failures, the cause is known and cannot be hidden from the manufacturer, the sanctioning body's tech inspectors or in past cases warranty fraud.

So far in my engine, at 34K miles total and 14,200 track... I have no blowby, no abnormal oil analysis data, notta-DT. Over a year ago we started this LT4 journey and did not make my car a FBO LT4, but we focused upon writing a tune that the engine would use matching the usage. I had a steep learning curve, tons of wasted $$$$ on parts that do not work, so I could share my experiences and the results good or bad. Some of our ideas are not the same as the norm or what has been done for the past 10 years the ZL1 has been available, so I get it when others fall back on the old adage’s "Its worked for years, why change now?" Well, my proof is in the miles, experience, and results... (so yes, the JLT IS better than the RotoFab) which I share freely with everyone, and Gabe will share this is true when we both make/sell/resell parts for others. I feel bad for his situation because he does have the same quest I do, to help others succeed, thus my offering of help to get his car running as it should.

Unrelated to the engine, a month ago I had spent a ton of money for an ALS Charity trackday weekend at VIR... I got in three laps before the transmission adapter to route fluid by a supplier failed. It has a 140º thermostat that fails in the CLOSED position, cutting off critical cooling at the time when you need it most. I contacted the company, didn't bash them online but rather called all my customers who we have installed this part and offered them the new billet part we make that has no thermostat. I've tested this part, on track and in 1000 more miles of road testing, to work flawlessly. We still do business with that previous manufacturer on other products, but it forced me to find a better solution for myself and our customers. Again, the rising tide raises all ships.

Originally Posted by SOCAL.M6.ZLE

1. I pulled my engine out at 2K miles to do my "at the time" very budget H/C package. That was 3 years ago now, and boy have a learned alot since then... What I can say with extreme confidence is that I would have done 85% of my build differently if I started with a fresh build today.
   
2. It's that learning curve that I, and many others have tried to steer people towards... to avoid some of the back and forth I have done myself...
   
3. The cost of doing all the back and forth, testing part, spending 3 months to tweak several parts of the car, just to do it all over again 3 months later for the sake of science, is the overhead of becoming a better resource and technical advisor to you all.
   
4. Although I could live 3 more lives and still not know as much as many of you on the board hear like Ted, King, Mega, David, and more... The more eyes, the more testing, the more mistakes we all collectively make, and share... the more we learn and grow as a community!
   
5. That said... my new short block will be rated for a reliable 1,200hp... which means it should be very happy at 900whp... and yes, I am going to be running the super boring BTR Stage.I cam (with a fuel love shaved down to 32% for a happier HPFP)
   
6. I think my last question may have been lost in the mix.... but did anyone else decide to try out some roller tip rockers? My builder says they do wonders for preventing the oblong valve guide wear... Let me know!

1. I would have bought the BMW... lighter, AWD and definitely easier to mod!
   
2. Wait... "Back & Forth..?" I think Gabe and I could have a contest on who can remove the bumper cover faster and re-install without losing any fasteners or stripping the torx screws!
   
3. OMG!! The parts shelves in my shop's storage room are full of parts that I bought, tested, cursed and had to start all over because they did not work! I'm on my fifth GM Oil Fill Tube right now!!
   
4. A Rising Tide Raises ALL SHIPS! Together we ALL WIN!! This is why I do this... I could be on the water in the Bahamas right now instead of fabbing parts from 6am til 8pm all day, then coming home to edit videos or write a new blog post to my website.
   
5. I'm still not completely sold on changing the cam right now as I am at the limit of what the tires can hold on the road course. I will definitely change the lifters, valve springs and use the Tx Speed roller tip rockers to reduce the friction on the valvestems. I love the monster torque my car makes off the corners and the PTM knows how to keep the eLSD in check so the application of power doesn't shred the tires. When I do build a new engine, it will be through LME in Houston as I have known their commitment to excellence for decades.
   
6. I ordered the rockers after our phone call... I won't have them installed by the weekend but I will before Daytona coming up. Definitely will seek to find if the upper RPMs are smoother since I am going to lighten the pushrods as well.

Ted, my brother and I did exactly as you said when we were tuning my car last year... we would let it drop below 2000 rpm and through the entire range, made changes by stabbing the throttle while loading the Mustang Dyno and unloading it to simulate traction loss in an effort to see if the PTM would kick in or we would have any timing pull to affect the torque to the tires. We were monitoring a lot of things. What's relevant to this conversation is that we were just then changing the oil pressure control to come in before 5,500 RPM and it would take nearly a full second for the gauge to respond. By 6,000 rpm the oil would swing to beyond 80psi by pegging the gauge. I think its quite critical to make sure this oil control is addressed when pushing these engines as hard as we do.

When we dyno the car, we do so in 7th gear (10L90E equivalent of M6 4th gear 1:1 ratio) and we pull all the way from the dig to simulate coming off the corner at Road Atlanta turn 7, pushing it all the way to 165+mph which is the back straight speed. We do these pulls, back to back without cool-downs so when we get to the track, 20-30 minutes of run time are a non-issue. We hammer the car on the dyno to see if the wheelspin reveals a knock or the disruption of the systems causes an intervention.

This video is a YEAR ago when developing our Oil Cooler Systems, ethanol blend and cooling upgrades. The car has 2.0" ARH headers, no cats, OEM NPP Suitcase, Brisk RR14S plugs, Katech wires, ATI Balancer with a 9.17" lower pulley and completely stock SC with the noise plate removed on the Baby RF airbox. The valve covers have never been off the car, she still has the stock cam and everything GM built it with. This is what you can get when you do not tune for soft, customers and looking for what can possibly fail, and yet... I have no bearing issues on the same OEM GM LT4. My engine builder Jerry (nametag on the engine... cannot remember his last name while typing this) must have had a great day!

[JANNETTYRACING]

Originally Posted by 2023_ZL1-AUTO

I will say this about Ted! Over a year ago, I contacted him about additional mod work to my car. He knew then exactly how my build needed to be. And to a point, I give him kudo's for "not" taking my build on, as I wanted to do it in stages. But, today my build is mostly where he told me it needed to be. The only difference is, I think, if I would have just opened the checkbook up back then and had Ted do the build. I would be sitting on a full DI build with a Maggie and no port, probably running E50 to E60. I'm not saying that is a bad thing. I saying that would be a difference in my build from back then to now! Ted, you were spot on my friend!

Thank you for the kind words.

The market and technology is ever changing and we adapt very quickly.

My personal car is used for R&D like many others.

Utilizing the newest offerings here is my mod list

New GM complete crate engine.
CNC ported heads local machine shop
JRE 3 bolt Terminator 2 cam package which includes all valve train components and Ktech oil pump.
TSP VVT delete cover and 3 bolt gear.
TSP DOD delete Valley cover.
ATI superdamper with 9.55 lower
Jokerz race ported LT4 supercharger stock upper pulley
95mm LT5 TB
Rotofab big gulp.
DSX twin pump with second FSCM controlle by ECM.
Goliath HPFP.
XDI 70 over injectors.
DSX flex fuel sensor.
E-85 with head room for more power and more E
Kooks 2 inch LT with 3 inch X pipe to stock muffler.
Calibration with Hptuners

13 psi boost

855 RWHP
916 RWTQ.

Short list for a lot of power, Ultimate driveability, fuel economy and Too much power for Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2Rs

The engine is still outflowing the supercharger shown by the higher Torque than HP

This build was originally planned with a Maggie 2650 but when we did the project we ran out of 2650s Plus The Jokers ported blower was in stock and had rave reviews, so I thought it would be a good oportunity to see for my self how the new race porting would work.

Needless to say it exceeded my expectations, However I would not want to spin it any faster.

[Patriot Motorsports USA]

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

Thank you for the kind words.

The market and technology is ever changing and we adapt very quickly.

My personal car is used for R&D like many others.

ATI superdamper with 9.55 lower

13 psi boost

855 RWHP
916 RWTQ.

Short list for a lot of power, Ultimate driveability, fuel economy and Too much power for Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2Rs

The engine is still outflowing the supercharger shown by the higher Torque than HP

This build was originally planned with a Maggie 2650 but when we did the project we ran out of 2650s Plus The Jokers ported blower was in stock and had rave reviews, so I thought it would be a good oportunity to see for my self how the new race porting would work.

Needless to say it exceeded my expectations, However I would not want to spin it any faster.

AMEN!!! Boost is only a reflection of restriction and SIR, you have very little. There is a reason why those who are road racing these cars, use the stock blower. Louis Gigliotti is cracking records at every track they go to, taking he entire field to GappleBees each race weekend with OEM Ported LT4 1.7L superchargers.

"Making a bigger gate gets more horses through it... and less damage to the fence!"

Change out those Michelin Cup2Rs on the street to the Continental Extreme Contact2s and you might actually find the car more fun to drive. They have incredible cold traction, do not need the lower pressures to make you feel comfortable.

And they are $100per tire cheaper!

[ZL1_1LE]

Originally Posted by 2023_ZL1-AUTO

I will say this about Ted! Over a year ago, I contacted him about additional mod work to my car. He knew then exactly how my build needed to be. And to a point, I give him kudo's for "not" taking my build on, as I wanted to do it in stages. But, today my build is mostly where he told me it needed to be. The only difference is, I think, if I would have just opened the checkbook up back then and had Ted do the build. I would be sitting on a full DI build with a Maggie and no port, probably running E50 to E60. I'm not saying that is a bad thing. I saying that would be a difference in my build from back then to now! Ted, you were spot on my friend!

I'm not sure anyone was taking a shot at Ted here.