[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by olrocker

And now those emission requirements are out the window.

Someone go find the tool and die sets and put them back together.

And good engineers can make them fit. Mercedes engineers made their big S Class 5 liter V8 fit in the mid-size E Class which was specifically designed for in-line 4, 5, and 6 cylinder motors.

The emissions requirements are not gone they are just dialed back a bit. The 3800 based V6 still wouldn't meet any modern requirements. The reason they don't fit has nothing to do with the number of cylinders. It's all about the 90-degree V being too wide to fit any current GM architecture. And as for the tooling, whatever hasn't been repurposed for current product programs was probably so worn out it is trashed, melted down and recycled into something else. It's a noble dream, but one that will never see daylight.

[olrocker]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

The emissions requirements are not gone they are just dialed back a bit. The 3800 based V6 still wouldn't meet any modern requirements. The reason they don't fit has nothing to do with the number of cylinders. It's all about the 90-degree V being too wide to fit any current GM architecture. And as for the tooling, whatever hasn't been repurposed for current product programs was probably so worn out it is trashed, melted down and recycled into something else. It's a noble dream, but one that will never see daylight.

You must not know about the E500. The E Class W124 chassis was not wide enough to fit the S Class W126 chassis V8 into it due the the 90degree width of the 5 liter. As I said the W124 was engineered for INLINE engines only.

Yet the engineers (with a little help from Porsche to build it because the Mercedes assembly line track was too narrow but Porsche’s wasn’t) made it happen.

The point is good engineers make no excuses. The see a problem and figure out the solution.

They don’t throw their hands up and go “eh, it don’t fit the chassis”.

For great engineers, that’s “challenge accepted!” - Not “it can’t be done”

And before you say corporate won’t let that happen, where’s the spirit of John DeLorean. Corporate wouldn’t let him put the Bonneville/Catalina 389 into the Tempest because it was against corporate policy.

But no one told DeLorean no. I know you know that story.

GM as a company metaphorically just needs to spend one night doing blow off a hookers ass.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by olrocker

You must not know about the E500. The E Class W124 chassis was not wide enough to fit the S Class W126 chassis V8 into it due the the 90degree width of the 5 liter. As I said the W124 was engineered for INLINE engines only.

Yet the engineers (with a little help from Porsche to build it because the Mercedes assembly line track was too narrow but Porsche’s wasn’t) made it happen.

The point is good engineers make no excuses. The see a problem and figure out the solution.

They don’t throw their hands up and go “eh, it don’t fit the chassis”.

For great engineers, that’s “challenge accepted!” - Not “it can’t be done”

And before you say corporate won’t let that happen, where’s the spirit of John DeLorean. Corporate wouldn’t let him put the Bonneville/Catalina 389 into the Tempest because it was against corporate policy.

But no one told DeLorean no. I know you know that story.

GM as a company metaphorically just needs to spend one night doing blow off a hookers ass.

Can't believe you mentioned DeLorean and blow in the same conversation

Very familiar with the W124 and the E500. Had to have a couple of my guys do a deep dive on it for one of the vehicle teams. When you price a vehicle in E500 territory you can take such liberties. Nobody's going to dedicate the kind of resources that went into that car for a fairly low volume, mass market car. Low volume luxury? Maybe. Low volume mass market? Flushing bank notes down the toilet would be more economical.

Let's see if that story has a modern day redo. The STLA Large platform that the Dodge Charger is now built on was also engineered for inline engines only. A lot of talk about "Hemi's back!! Charger's gonna get a Hemi!!" Thing is...it won't fit without repositioning the shock towers. That would be a major tearup on a brand new platform that hasn't even started paying for itself yet. Can it be done? Maybe. But at the very least it will be super expensive and will effect every single vehicle to be built on STLA Large.

[Patriot Motorsports USA]

Nearly everyone in this thread is focused on the wrong location..!!

In my recent travels to China, Thailand and elsewhere I have not shared with this forum, I see what is going on Globally and when it comes to vehicles, no one outside the USA really cares what we build here. There are EVs in other regions that will smoke a Tesla Plaid in any configuration and Elon lobbies HARD against those Governments to restrict their Imports to the USA and their speeds in the name of safety, to keep the international press to a minimum, but leveraged by their desire to use his rocket designs to launch their own satellites into space to keep this quiet. Dive deep into this and you will see the similarities.

GM is in deep trouble with SAIC and While GM truck owners like my Father-In-Law, twice in the same truck because the dealership would only replace the busted lifters and not the BLOCK leading him to face a catastrophic engine failure... CEO Mary Barra quietly SOLD 40% of her stock. The shocking truth: our tax dollars funded the most insane corporate takeover in history!

GM handed their ENTIRE Chinese operation to state-owned SAIC for just $85 million - that's like trading a Ferrari for a beat-up Honda, but not before you bought the tech to use in the Corvette Z06, by promising Ferrari five years ahead to use their engines in the Cadillac F1 cars. Can you see the Honeymoon now? In 2024 alone, GM took $5.2 BILLION in losses while SAIC's combined market sells over 985K vehicles, their MG brand outsells Honda, Renault, and Mazda COMBINED using stolen GM technology!! Do anyone of you still think an MG is an old British Convertible?

• 70% of GM production moved outside the US after our taxed bailout
• SAIC controls GM's EV future - all developed in China
• GM became America's largest Chinese car importer, yes... all those EV Caddys and more!
• 2027 contract expiration = the END of GM as I see it. There is no way to recover this and its why you see the revisioning of the Caddy brands as I see it breaking away from GM to let that ship sink.

The math is brutal: GM's global market share crashed to 6.7% (lowest EVER) while China conquered the world with GM's own tech. This isn't just corporate failure - it's the systematic destruction of American automotive dominance funded by our taxes!

AND NOW... GM says to Americans they want to "Copy China" when in truth, we are being set up for the Sell Out TO CHINA and open our doors because we are greedy. What will happen is a percentage of the vehicles will be produced IN China and the Lobbyists will negotiate a huge Tariff deal by arguing the final assembly here will "grow American Jobs/keep factories open" or like Toyota and BMW do, just build their factories here in the USA to bypass costs of shipping.

Meanwhile, we argue about which V8 we will get and can we get an M6 with three pedals cause the infotainment system isn't big enough to distract me from shifting gears.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Patriot Motorsports USA

Nearly everyone in this thread is focused on the wrong location..!!

In my recent travels to China, Thailand and elsewhere I have not shared with this forum, I see what is going on Globally and when it comes to vehicles, no one outside the USA really cares what we build here. There are EVs in other regions that will smoke a Tesla Plaid in any configuration and Elon lobbies HARD against those Governments to restrict their Imports to the USA and their speeds in the name of safety, to keep the international press to a minimum, but leveraged by their desire to use his rocket designs to launch their own satellites into space to keep this quiet. Dive deep into this and you will see the similarities.

GM is in deep trouble with SAIC and While GM truck owners like my Father-In-Law, twice in the same truck because the dealership would only replace the busted lifters and not the BLOCK leading him to face a catastrophic engine failure... CEO Mary Barra quietly SOLD 40% of her stock. The shocking truth: our tax dollars funded the most insane corporate takeover in history!

GM handed their ENTIRE Chinese operation to state-owned SAIC for just $85 million - that's like trading a Ferrari for a beat-up Honda, but not before you bought the tech to use in the Corvette Z06, by promising Ferrari five years ahead to use their engines in the Cadillac F1 cars. Can you see the Honeymoon now? In 2024 alone, GM took $5.2 BILLION in losses while SAIC's combined market sells over 985K vehicles, their MG brand outsells Honda, Renault, and Mazda COMBINED using stolen GM technology!! Do anyone of you still think an MG is an old British Convertible?

• 70% of GM production moved outside the US after our taxed bailout
• SAIC controls GM's EV future - all developed in China
• GM became America's largest Chinese car importer, yes... all those EV Caddys and more!
• 2027 contract expiration = the END of GM as I see it. There is no way to recover this and its why you see the revisioning of the Caddy brands as I see it breaking away from GM to let that ship sink.

The math is brutal: GM's global market share crashed to 6.7% (lowest EVER) while China conquered the world with GM's own tech. This isn't just corporate failure - it's the systematic destruction of American automotive dominance funded by our taxes!

AND NOW... GM says to Americans they want to "Copy China" when in truth, we are being set up for the Sell Out TO CHINA and open our doors because we are greedy. What will happen is a percentage of the vehicles will be produced IN China and the Lobbyists will negotiate a huge Tariff deal by arguing the final assembly here will "grow American Jobs/keep factories open" or like Toyota and BMW do, just build their factories here in the USA to bypass costs of shipping.

Meanwhile, we argue about which V8 we will get and can we get an M6 with three pedals cause the infotainment system isn't big enough to distract me from shifting gears.

Not gonna try to fact check all of this. Just gonna focus on a couple things that I know off the top of my head to be ABSOLUTELY AND ABSURDLY INCORRECT.

1st: SAIC controls GM's EV future - all developed in China. Easily disproved. SAIC is responsible for developing and manufacturing SOME of the GM vehicles sold in China. Wuling also develops and manufactures some as does a third GM JV whose name escapes me now. NONE of them have any input on vehicles developed and sold in North America, with one exception as noted below.

2nd: GM became America's largest Chinese car importer, yes... all those EV Caddys and more! - Part of this is correct, part of it is laughably incorrect. GM does import the most vehicles from China to the US. One specific vehicle...Buick Envision. A staggering 47k units sold in the US last year. Cadillac EVs are built in North America, not China

• Cadillac Lyriq - Spring Hill, TN
• Cadillac Optiq - Ramos Arizpe, Mexico
• Cadillac Escalade iQ - Hamtramck (Detroit), MI
• Cadillac Vistiq - Spring Hill TN
• Guess I can also include the Cadillac Celestiq even though most people will never see one in the wild. It's hand-built at GM's Warren Michigan Technical Center

3rd: GM handed their ENTIRE Chinese operation to state-owned SAIC for just $85 million - GM sold SAIC 1% of their holdings in the JV for $85M. I guess you just added a couple extra zeroes, so no big deal, close enough eh? What that means is that instead of 50/50 the JV is now 51% SAIC / 49% GM. That applies to decision making and capital input as well as profit splits.

4th: CEO Mary Barra quietly SOLD 40% of her stock. - Again, partially true but with a conspiratorial spin. Mary Barra DID sell 40% of her stock. She still holds over 500k shares. The big issue is WHY? The sale of the stock was executed by a company algorithm that manages stock shares and options for all GM C-Suite executives. The algorithm is designed to make the trades in a manner that prevents the potential for insider trading and the resulting trades are clearly made public. Kinda the opposite of quietly. This was not a case of MB saying "I think I'll sell some stock today", it's a case of the algorithm stating "It is recommended that this account sell X shares and options...agree or disagree and MB agreeing. GM stock is at a high point so....why not?

Based on how easy it was for me to find the falsehoods in this much of your post, just from what I know off the top of my head, I find it difficult to believe any of the rest of it. Credibility.

[olrocker]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Our forecast now shows a Chevrolet vehicle coming out of Lansing Grand River...with a 6.6L V8...with a manual transmission...nameplate undetermined...with 4 doors.

That is LITERALLY all I am willing to say on the topic. I won't be answering any questions. What I said is what I said.

Well there’s certainly smoke to your comments:

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a6..._xlipY9bFZzQmg

[MisterMarauder]

GM only makes the 6.6L L8T for truck applications. I find it extremely unlikely that will be used in a passenger car configuration. More likely, if a V8 is used, it'll be some form of the LT2.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by MisterMarauder

GM only makes the 6.6L L8T for truck applications. I find it extremely unlikely that will be used in a passenger car configuration. More likely, if a V8 is used, it'll be some form of the LT2.

Stay tuned. Remember that $888M investment in the Tonawanda (Buffalo) engine plant? V8 engines for light duty vehicles. This is the non-truck version of the 6.6L V8.

https://news.gm.com/home.detail.html...ion-plant.html

[MisterMarauder]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Stay tuned. Remember that $888M investment in the Tonawanda (Buffalo) engine plant? V8 engines for light duty vehicles. This is the non-truck version of the 6.6L V8.

https://news.gm.com/home.detail.html...ion-plant.html

Literally the first sentence in that article.

General Motors announced plans to invest $888 million in its Tonawanda Propulsion plant to support the production of the sixth generation of GM’s V-8 engines, used in full-size trucks and SUVs.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by MisterMarauder

Literally the first sentence in that article.

General Motors announced plans to invest $888 million in its Tonawanda Propulsion plant to support the production of the sixth generation of GM’s V-8 engines, used in full-size trucks and SUVs.

There are Light Duty vehicles and there are Medium / Heavy Duty vehicles. The 6.6L L8T engines made at the Flint, Michigan plant are specifically for Medium and Heavy Duty trucks. Not SUVs. Just trucks. We're talking Silverado 4500 / 5500 and larger vehicles. They are designed for high torque at low rpm and typically do not have a high horsepower profile.

The investment at the Tonawanda plant is to make the 6.6L engines for Light Duty vehicles. Light Duty covers everything from passenger cars to 2500 Series trucks and utilities. These engines will feature high power and very good torque, but nothing like the L8T. Expect them to replace the 6.2L in full-size trucks and utilities, Corvette, CT5, and whatever the Chevrolet sedan turns out to be.

[2SS Capt]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

There are Light Duty vehicles and there are Medium / Heavy Duty vehicles. The 6.6L L8T engines made at the Flint, Michigan plant are specifically for Medium and Heavy Duty trucks. Not SUVs. Just trucks. We're talking Silverado 4500 / 5500 and larger vehicles. They are designed for high torque at low rpm and typically do not have a high horsepower profile.

The investment at the Tonawanda plant is to make the 6.6L engines for Light Duty vehicles. Light Duty covers everything from passenger cars to 2500 Series trucks and utilities. These engines will feature high power and very good torque, but nothing like the L8T. Expect them to replace the 6.2L in full-size trucks and utilities, Corvette, CT5, and whatever the Chevrolet sedan turns out to be.

6.6L, I like the sound of that!

[olrocker]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

whatever the Chevrolet sedan turns out to be.

An Impala SS 6 speed stick in the vein of the 2013-18 SS sedan would be delicious.

In black with gray interior. Black wheels. Red calipers. Black out tail lamp lenses.

It would Look perfect in my garage next to my silver Camaro

[MisterMarauder]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

There are Light Duty vehicles and there are Medium / Heavy Duty vehicles. The 6.6L L8T engines made at the Flint, Michigan plant are specifically for Medium and Heavy Duty trucks. Not SUVs. Just trucks. We're talking Silverado 4500 / 5500 and larger vehicles. They are designed for high torque at low rpm and typically do not have a high horsepower profile.

The investment at the Tonawanda plant is to make the 6.6L engines for Light Duty vehicles. Light Duty covers everything from passenger cars to 2500 Series trucks and utilities. These engines will feature high power and very good torque, but nothing like the L8T. Expect them to replace the 6.2L in full-size trucks and utilities, Corvette, CT5, and whatever the Chevrolet sedan turns out to be.

From Mary Barra herself:

Our significant investments in GM’s Tonawanda Propulsion plant show our commitment to strengthening American manufacturing and supporting jobs in the U.S.,” CEO Mary Barra said. “GM’s Buffalo plant has been in operation for 87 years and is continuing to innovate the engines we build there to make them more fuel efficient and higher performing, which will help us deliver world-class trucks and SUVs to our customers for years to come.”

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by MisterMarauder

From Mary Barra herself:

Our significant investments in GM’s Tonawanda Propulsion plant show our commitment to strengthening American manufacturing and supporting jobs in the U.S.,” CEO Mary Barra said. “GM’s Buffalo plant has been in operation for 87 years and is continuing to innovate the engines we build there to make them more fuel efficient and higher performing, which will help us deliver world-class trucks and SUVs to our customers for years to come.”

Because she has no intent of telling everybody what the product plan is until they're ready to do so. She's not gonna say "Oh, and they'll replace the 6.2L engine in the Corvette (produced at Tonawanda, by the way) and they'll go into a new car that I'm not prepared to tell you anything about".

The extension of the CT5 had not even been announced at that time, so why would / should she say anything about cars?