[VaporPressure]

I'm someone who started out in a car that wasn't designed for track use. Tires, brake pads and fluid can be swapped easily but the engine/trans/diff cooling is the big deal. Once you're a little bit faster, consistently going into limp mode will ruin expensive track weekends (this was what led me to the Camaro and it may not happen on your first few weekends, but it will eventually). Swapping those cooling systems are harder to stomach because it's more work and you may be voiding warranties on a brand new car. There are probably tons of additional unexpected annoyances/costs to deal with, all to end up where a 1LE would have put you out of the box. BTW, on my ZLE I received a $11k repair for free due to the warranty (just mentioning it because you say you saved $15k by going with the cheaper model).

My advice would be to get 1LE wheels (can sell them easily if desired) and sticky tires, high temp brake fluid, and just go have fun autocrossing and tracking. If you decide you want to do more track days, consider just keeping your brand new LT1 in good condition for a sale, and look for a used 1LE with all the cooling/suspension/brake stuff taken care of. If you decide you just want to autocross, cooling isn't nearly as important and suspension/tire upgrades are pretty easy without big downsides so it probably makes sense to stick with the LT1. I do both, but all my upgrade choices have veered toward road course fun rather than AutoX competitiveness, so everyone sort of ends up with different goals once they're into it.

Originally Posted by Msquared

With open-ended lug nuts the length of the stud doesn't matter.

This gave me a chuckle because I just swapped the fronts and the studs are too long for my regular deep socket to get the street wheels back on without a spacer. So I'm waiting on a super deep socket from amazon as we speak, with the car's front/rear wheels swapped. Thankfully have 305 tires all around so it's still sort of driveable

[DieselTech69]

Thanks for the info.

So, longer studs will likely mean I cannot run my aftermarket red lug nuts on my street wheels then. Unless of course, they are long enough internally as to not bind when torqued. I'll have to measure them I suppose. I'll probably stick with no spacers then, so I'll have to find a tire/wheel setup that won't require them. Just to be clear, the purpose of spacers in the front is so that different offsets F/R aren't required and rotations are easy, correct?


@VaporPressure - I understand your train of thought here, it makes sense. TBH, if I could afford 2 cars, I'd build one for the track and one for the street. Maybe that's where I'll end up eventually anyway, as I want to have a streetable car to drive, not just a comp car. I will point out that I would not vastly modify my car until the factory warranty expires anyway (which will end up being by time and not mileage), and as a professional mechanic, all work would be done by myself (so not paying a shop). Gotta get my feet wet first.....we all know how things change over time. TBH, if I was going to get serious about track work, I'd likely go with a different car and build it for track use only, just for the fact that if I wad it up, it's my "track car".....

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by VaporPressure

This gave me a chuckle because I just swapped the fronts and the studs are too long for my regular deep socket to get the street wheels back on without a spacer. So I'm waiting on a super deep socket from amazon as we speak, with the car's front/rear wheels swapped. Thankfully have 305 tires all around so it's still sort of driveable

Haha, yeah I forgot that part, you will need a super-deep 19mm socket, lol. At this point both my ax and track wheels are 18x12 and I rarely put on my ZLE-sized PS4S setup so I don't use it much.


OP, the MSI lug nuts are very high quality and that isn't the case for 99% of lug nuts these days including OEM and even Gorilla... McGard and MSI are actually the only reliable brands of lug nuts.

The ZLE suspension is not magride and is extremely stiff vs OEM LT1, but OEM LT1 sus has softer sus than will work well with much larger and stickier wheels/tires. With ZLE sus and wheels + 200tw tires the car will handle well but you won't have quite enough brakes and cooling for track. If you do decide on a SS 1LE the sus wheels and tires will work on the SLE too. If you decide you want to use the car on track regularly I'd agree it makes more sense to buy a SLE. The other thing you can't upgrade on the LT1 is the PTM system and ABS calibrations, this can end up being another issue on track and another reason the SLE will be worth the investment. It's also the top car for FS.

[DieselTech69]

PTM system?


Why can't the ABS calibrations be upgraded/changed? I have a scantool with J2534 pass-thru capability to flash OEM software....plus I have HP Tuners as well. Not that I think my HP Tuners setup can do ABS calibrations (I'd have to check that)....but I could certainly flash a different calibration file to the ABS ECU (ex: 1LE cal), unless the 1LE uses a different ABS ECU....

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by DieselTech69

PTM system?


Why can't the ABS calibrations be upgraded/changed? I have a scantool with J2534 pass-thru capability to flash OEM software....plus I have HP Tuners as well. Not that I think my HP Tuners setup can do ABS calibrations (I'd have to check that)....but I could certainly flash a different calibration file to the ABS ECU (ex: 1LE cal), unless the 1LE uses a different ABS ECU....

Performance Traction Management... too much info to go into but it's all here on this site.

ABS uses the EBCM or Electronic Brake Control Module and while it is possible to upgrade the donor car must be the same model, just a later year, so you will not be able to install a SLE or ZLE EBCM without risking bricking your car. OTOH, it might work... For example I installed a '19+ EBCM in my '18 SLE but I had to make sure the '19+ was from the exact same car with the exact same options. This is all according to GM engineers fwiw.

This is a big deal because PTM including traction and stability controls as well as ABS are calibrated around the OEM tires. When you add grip you're now outside of these parameters and the nannies will jump in too soon. OTOH I drove a friend's ZLE with much less grip (320tw tires) and I could light up the rear tires with TC on, no problem.

In general you're best off buying a car that's closest to what you want vs modifying a car to be what you want. LT1 can be that car for modified autox classes but for track starting with the SLE will be both better and cheaper in the long run.

[DieselTech69]

I see. Isn't just turning off PTM a viable solution? I have that option for my car - I can put it in track mode and that stuff is (supposed to be) off.

I don't disagree with your premise though (starting with a car with the 1LE package).

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by DieselTech69

I see. Isn't just turning off PTM a viable solution? I have that option for my car - I can put it in track mode and that stuff is (supposed to be) off.

I don't disagree with your premise though (starting with a car with the 1LE package).

You can turn off nannies by holding down the TC off button for 8 sec. which is good for autox but not a great idea for a beginner driving on track. The SLE's PTM and ABS will be much better than the LT1's when using stickier tires.

Just saw this...

https://www.facebook.com/commerce/li...are_attachment

[TransamGTA350]

I'm in the camp of just take the car as is and go do some autocross events and Novice track days. Just upgrade your brake fluid and go. Don't worry about tires (yet), for the first few events. Once you start getting quicker, then a 2nd set of track wheels/tires makes sense. Leave the car alone as far as other modifications for now. Get seat time and work on your skills and extract as much as you can out of the car the way it is. After a while, you'll start to know what the car isn't doing for you and what you want it to do and then decide what to change. Or, you may decide that it's not worth modding this car and you move on to a different car, treating this car more as a learning tool. Nothing wrong with that. Often people start making changes to their cars way too early when really they just need more seat time.

You mentioned SCDA. I ran with them as a novice and enjoyed the experience. Their instruction and focus on safety was very good.

If you want to get into more competitive events, whether that is SCCA Autocross, Time Trials, etc., you need to look into the classes you would like to run in and evaluate how competitive your car will be and/or what it will take to get there. But, in order to be competitive, you need seat time and local autocrosses and HPDE events are a blast to do while you're learning.

The path forward will become clearer as you move along it.

[Patriot Motorsports USA]

Originally Posted by DieselTech69

I see. Isn't just turning off PTM a viable solution? I have that option for my car - I can put it in track mode and that stuff is (supposed to be) off.

I don't disagree with your premise though (starting with a car with the 1LE package).

WOW!! I spend a weekend at the racetrack and this thread totally evolves!

DT69... my Brother is in ROC and we spend a lot of time at the Rochester Yacht Club and taking the Sunseeker to A-Bay all the time!

I will stand by my decades of experience where I bought what I justified and then spent enough to have bought the truly competitive model 2-3Xover! If you like the car as a Daily, then keep it as such... but there are dozens of stolen theft recoveries that you can build into legit, class-legal cars for a fraction of the cost of buying a used, clear-title car.

Here's the real question... Have you ever driven a SS1LE or a ZLE? I ask this because as soon as you realize what is possible in this platform, nothing else matters... not even the C8 Z07 I had on order!! I had to let it go as I will wait for my ZR1X but never let go of this incredible ZLE!!

So lets talk seriously.

The LT1 has shitty pistons... so if you think upgrading the engine will be cheap, NAH... not gonna happen. The transmission ratios are slow... so nope, no performance there either. You can upgrade to the DSSV Struts and shocks to get valving like no other, and I like the firm ride!! With the proper alignment the car is laser focused!

The platform is amazing... but you cannot "program" the PTM to do on a SS1LE, what my ZLE can do and 90% of the owners of these cars cannot crossover to letting the Nannies couple the control of the vehicle in completely unnatural settings like flooring the throttle going into a turn and just trusting PTM-Jesus has the wheel!! The Performance Supplement manual from GM is TELLING YOU TO FLOOR it into the corners!!

Catch a flight and join us for a track day down here in SC or GA at one of our track events. We have events at VIR in October as well as Daytona. LMK!!

[DeuceCam]

Do you just want to track time or are you wanting to race competitively?

Would you be adding mods to the car yourself or paying paying someone to do it?

[DieselTech69]

@Patriot Motorsports - are you saying there is some difference in the engine build from the factory, LT1 vs. SS? Or a difference in the Tremec ratios between an LT1 and SS? My research shows no difference between the ratios on the LT1/SS, but for the ZL1 and ZLE the ratios (and torque capacity) are different (https://tremec.com/wp-content/upload...et_TR-6060.pdf). I can understand there is a difference between the ZL1 and the SS or LT1, as the LT4 is SC'd and therefore has different pistons to account for the added boost. I got your PM and I'll reach out to you at some point in the near future.


@DeuceCam - I def want some track experience, as for competitive racing that will depend on a few things, but my short answer is: most likely, yes. As stated previously, I'm a professional mechanic, so I'll be doing everything myself, to include any engine mods/rebuilds.


@TransAmGTA350 - I agree with your assessment. Seat time first. The reason I've brought up the tires is that I want to upgrade my wheels/tires for the street, but in doing so, I'd have to run something other than FS or be forced to run the stock wheel size on track, based on the rules (as I understand it).

[DeuceCam]

Good info in this thread. IIRC, there's a few members tracking their LT1's, hopefully they see this and chime in.

It's good that you are able to work on your own car because that gives you more options. For example, you could install custom dedicated oil coolers/fluid pumps for both the trans and diff, which wouldn't tax the engine coolant like the OEM SS setup does. Install a larger radiator, e.g., PWR. Put SLE, ZL1, or aftermarket brakes on the car; if it becomes a dedicated track car, ditch the e-brake in favor of better rear rotors/calipers.

That said, you still won't have the e-diff and all the features that come with it, such as PTM. AFAIK, the LT1/SS diff can't be upgraded, unless one opts for Strange 9" rear conversion from G-Force or DSS for $8k+, which could be a can-of-worms.

Best to just drive it and see what's what before making any big changes. That said, I'm assuming a bone stock LT1 isn't going to be competitive in any racing class, or I'm sure we would have heard about it by now.

If you just wanted track time, like an HPDE, that changes a lot, because there's no competition. For example, if the car got hot or brakes faded, just leave the session early with no worries.

[cdrptrks]

Originally Posted by VaporPressure

engine/trans/diff cooling is the big deal. Once you're a little bit faster, consistently going into limp mode will ruin expensive track weekends (this was what led me to the Camaro and it may not happen on your first few weekends, but it will eventually). Swapping those cooling systems are harder to stomach because it's more work and you may be voiding warranties on a brand new car.

I was going to make a similar comment. Also I think the LT1 front bumper doesn't have the internal air channels that feed the auxillary radiators even if the aux radiators were added.

My M6 SS 1LE reaches max oil temps in the 260s to 270s (°F) on track. I think the LT1 would probably overheat on track if driven hard with the coolers it is missing compared to the SS & SS 1LE. I think track use also voids the warranty on the LT1 if I remember correctly.

I'd recommend just bringing the car to autocross in stock form to try it out before doing any mods. Consider turning traction and stability control fully off if there's nothing solid around that you could hit if you spin out.

[cdrptrks]

Originally Posted by cdrptrks

I think track use also voids the warranty on the LT1 if I remember correctly.

Confirmed:

'the Camaro LT1 model is not included [in track warranty coverage]. “The LT1 is not considered track-capable, as it does not have the brakes, suspension, etc. to qualify,” Bonelli says.'

https://www.hagerty.com/media/news/w...track-driving/

Unfortunately, the majority of people I've met who have tracked their SS 1LEs frequently for several years have had at least 1 engine issue. Myself included: first a failed lifter that required cam replacement, then later spun bearings that required engine replacement. The track use warranty could save you thousands of dollars of repair costs.

Technically autocross voids the warranty even on the 1LEs that have track warranty coverage because it is timed competition but in practice I don't think they're going out of their way to check for past autocross use specifically. I would not volunteer info about autocrossing to anyone at a dealership just to cover yourself.