[Cardiak]

I was wondering if the Camaro/GM fan club would try to find a way to validate the ZLE or ZR1 over the GTD in track performance. The ZLE stands no chance no matter what mods are done. It already has trouble putting down the same power that the GTD comes with. It's not very glued to the track at that power level. The GTD apparently makes more downforce than the ZR1 so it should be MORE capable on smaller/technical tracks. The impressive thing to me was how the GTD managed to have a higher average speed with so much less power and much more weight.

[Joshinator99]

Originally Posted by Cardiak

I was wondering if the Camaro/GM fan club would try to find a way to validate the ZLE or ZR1 over the GTD in track performance. The ZLE stands no chance no matter what mods are done. It already has trouble putting down the same power that the GTD comes with. It's not very glued to the track at that power level. The GTD apparently makes more downforce than the ZR1 so it should be MORE capable on smaller/technical tracks. The impressive thing to me was how the GTD managed to have a higher average speed with so much less power and much more weight.

You do realize the ZR1 already beat the GTD time *without* a professional driver, right? Adding a pro driver would chop another 5-10 seconds off that time, turning the ZR1 vs the GTD into a bloodbath… at nearly half the cost. I like the GTD and appreciate Ford throwing big money at race car development, but let’s be realistic.

[Z OH 6]

Originally Posted by Joshinator99

You do realize the ZR1 already beat the GTD time *without* a professional driver, right? Adding a pro driver would chop another 5-10 seconds off that time, turning the ZR1 vs the GTD into a bloodbath… at nearly half the cost. I like the GTD and appreciate Ford throwing big money at race car development, but let’s be realistic.

FACTS!

[Cardiak]

Originally Posted by Joshinator99

You do realize the ZR1 already beat the GTD time *without* a professional driver, right? Adding a pro driver would chop another 5-10 seconds off that time, turning the ZR1 vs the GTD into a bloodbath… at nearly half the cost. I like the GTD and appreciate Ford throwing big money at race car development, but let’s be realistic.

Sure, but I'm saying from an overall performance standpoint, the GTD is more impressive carrying more weight with less power and still had a very close time to the ZR1. I'd like to see what the GTD can do with a few bolt ons giving it 1K+ HP.

[Patriot Motorsports USA]

Originally Posted by Z OH 6

While I understand the point you're trying to make that electronic assists should be well understood to extract a good time out of the car, I disagree that a pro driver will not beat GM's engineers by a significant margin on a track as long as the Ring. Misha has already reviewed the video footage and provided a breakdown of the Ring lap on Youtube and showed that the GM engineers did not take ideal lines very often, so he estimated there was probably 10 seconds left on the table. I trust his expertise of the track which matters a lot on a 7 minute lap.

I know Misha and his points are extremely valid, we have discussed such over the past several months and he has been instrumental in several projects I am currently working on. My Daughter and Son-In-Law were just there and rented one of his cars last month while at The Ring. The learning curve on the ZLE/ZR1 nannies is pretty steep... I am going on 18 months of active testing and its a massive pucker curve to trust it. Imagine being in a full aero car like an F1 and having to push the speed through where the tire grip falls off but just a few more notches of speed and the aero gives you all the grip you need. Its a hard and very expensive pill to take.

Originally Posted by Cardiak

I was wondering if the Camaro/GM fan club would try to find a way to validate the ZLE or ZR1 over the GTD in track performance. The ZLE stands no chance no matter what mods are done. It already has trouble putting down the same power that the GTD comes with. It's not very glued to the track at that power level. The GTD apparently makes more downforce than the ZR1 so it should be MORE capable on smaller/technical tracks. The impressive thing to me was how the GTD managed to have a higher average speed with so much less power and much more weight.

Easy fixes for the ZL1 or ZR1 to beat the GTD; Active Aero and zero drag while going straight. Has anyone here run any of the Shift Sector or Mile events with a ZLE? Removing the rear wing is an easy 10-15mph at the top end... closing up the front grill and the side Aux HX ducts offers another 5-mph gain. SO... the GTD is using a $25K DRS system and guess who sells that to Multimatic under a license agreement...? MISHA! GM turned the DRS system down.

I have seen the GTD run at the track and there was one at VIR this weekend doing unimpressive laps. Hands down if the GTD was so amazing, do you think Ford would have gone on tour to every track in the USA to break some records or would at least TRY to establish one or two..? Its a hyped car just like every Shelby made. Put any one of them on a track for five laps and they are cooked.

[Joshinator99]

Originally Posted by Cardiak

Sure, but I'm saying from an overall performance standpoint, the GTD is more impressive carrying more weight with less power and still had a very close time to the ZR1. I'd like to see what the GTD can do with a few bolt ons giving it 1K+ HP.

The GTD had a pro driver, and a damn good one at that. It’s a big deal and if you give the ZR1 a pro driver it’s lights out for the GTD.

Modified cars don’t count towards the stock Nurburgring times and that’s an apples to oranges conversation. Besides, if you have to sink money into a $350K-$400K car, something is wrong lol

[AZ_1LE]

Originally Posted by Joshinator99

You do realize the ZR1 already beat the GTD time *without* a professional driver, right? Adding a pro driver would chop another 5-10 seconds off that time, turning the ZR1 vs the GTD into a bloodbath… at nearly half the cost. I like the GTD and appreciate Ford throwing big money at race car development, but let’s be realistic.

You do realize that he was one of the development team members, had been driving it for 7 years, done nearly 1000 laps and competed in NASA forever? I guess Chevy guys aren't going to be happy until Dale Jr has taken it for a spin

[Cardiak]

Originally Posted by Joshinator99

The GTD had a pro driver, and a damn good one at that. It’s a big deal and if you give the ZR1 a pro driver it’s lights out for the GTD.

Modified cars don’t count towards the stock Nurburgring times and that’s an apples to oranges conversation. Besides, if you have to sink money into a $350K-$400K car, something is wrong lol

Sure, but this goes beyond the Ring. It's so easy to get more power out of the Predator so I can't imagine the typical GTD owner that shows up for track days will be running on stock power. A few hundred dollars in bolt ons (pocket change for the people that can afford one) will have them faster than the average ZR1 driver. Both cars are impressive to say the least.

[Z OH 6]

Originally Posted by AZ_1LE

You do realize that he was one of the development team members, had been driving it for 7 years, done nearly 1000 laps and competed in NASA forever? I guess Chevy guys aren't going to be happy until Dale Jr has taken it for a spin

I think you mean competed in SCCA, not NASA, but the ZR1x driver was skilled but still not a pro. As I stated above, the lap time has already been reviewed and broken down on Youtube by Misha who is a Ring expert. As good as the GM drivers were, they did NOT take ideal lines which cost them time over the course of a 7 minute lap. The reason for this is not certain if they were so skilled.

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by AZ_1LE

You do realize that he was one of the development team members, had been driving it for 7 years, done nearly 1000 laps and competed in NASA forever? I guess Chevy guys aren't going to be happy until Dale Jr has taken it for a spin

Still not a pro.

I see this all the time with people on the track. They think if YOU can do it, so can I! WRONG, wrong and more wrong. You can't "do it" if you haven't put in the time to develop your skills and if you don't have aptitude.

This is like saying the dude who managed Jordan brand shoes would kick MJ's ass at his prime.

A Pro driver is a professional athlete just like any other and the thought anyone who hasn't put their entire f&*ing life into driving, and is genetically gifted on top of that, has any chance whatsoever is simply absurd. You're not as good and you're not as fast.

This is why the top pros who drive F1 cars make massive salaries. If they were a dime a dozen this wouldn't happen, but for *whatever* reason they're not easily replaceable.

The very same folks take one side of this and say a Chevy engineer, who may in fact be a top amateur driver and even approaching a lower level pro, has driven the ZR1 as quick as it can go are cheering for Max to drive the GTD. And these folks, most who have never even been to the Nurb let alone drove it, think Misha's analysis is garbage. Based on what? Your feelings?

This topic has brought out the most horrific kluge of dumba$$ery, ignorance and bias I have ever seen. If covid brought out all the wanna-be virologists, this topic has brought out similar "experts" on driving.

[Joshinator99]

Originally Posted by AZ_1LE

You do realize that he was one of the development team members, had been driving it for 7 years, done nearly 1000 laps and competed in NASA forever? I guess Chevy guys aren't going to be happy until Dale Jr has taken it for a spin

Guess the “not a pro” part is hard to understand? You realize pro drivers are paid big bucks because…they are *consistently faster*! Did you watch Misha’s breakdown of the GM driver’s performance? I’m guessing not.

Originally Posted by Cardiak

Sure, but this goes beyond the Ring. It's so easy to get more power out of the Predator so I can't imagine the typical GTD owner that shows up for track days will be running on stock power. A few hundred dollars in bolt ons (pocket change for the people that can afford one) will have them faster than the average ZR1 driver. Both cars are impressive to say the least.

Uh, it’s easier to turn up the boost on a twin 76mm turbo engine than a supercharged engine. Again, now you’re needing to tinker with a near $400K car when the ZR1 is faster for half the price?!?

Originally Posted by Z OH 6

I think you mean competed in SCCA, not NASA, but the ZR1x driver was skilled but still not a pro. As I stated above, the lap time has already been reviewed and broken down on Youtube by Misha who is a Ring expert. As good as the GM drivers were, they did NOT take ideal lines which cost them time over the course of a 7 minute lap. The reason for this is not certain if they were so skilled.

This.

Originally Posted by DaveC113

Still not a pro.

I see this all the time with people on the track. They think if YOU can do it, so can I! WRONG, wrong and more wrong. You can't "do it" if you haven't put in the time to develop your skills and if you don't have aptitude.

This is like saying the dude who managed Jordan brand shoes would kick MJ's ass at his prime.

A Pro driver is a professional athlete just like any other and the thought anyone who hasn't put their entire f&*ing life into driving, and is genetically gifted on top of that, has any chance whatsoever is simply absurd. You're not as good and you're not as fast.

This is why the top pros who drive F1 cars make massive salaries. If they were a dime a dozen this wouldn't happen, but for *whatever* reason they're not easily replaceable.

The very same folks take one side of this and say a Chevy engineer, who may in fact be a top amateur driver and even approaching a lower level pro, has driven the ZR1 as quick as it can go are cheering for Max to drive the GTD. And these folks, most who have never even been to the Nurb let alone drove it, think Misha's analysis is garbage. Based on what? Your feelings?

This topic has brought out the most horrific kluge of dumba$$ery, ignorance and bias I have ever seen. If covid brought out all the wanna-be virologists, this topic has brought out similar "experts" on driving.

Yep!

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

Still not a pro.

I see this all the time with people on the track. They think if YOU can do it, so can I! WRONG, wrong and more wrong. You can't "do it" if you haven't put in the time to develop your skills and if you don't have aptitude.

This is like saying the dude who managed Jordan brand shoes would kick MJ's ass at his prime.

A Pro driver is a professional athlete just like any other and the thought anyone who hasn't put their entire f&*ing life into driving, and is genetically gifted on top of that, has any chance whatsoever is simply absurd. You're not as good and you're not as fast.

This is why the top pros who drive F1 cars make massive salaries. If they were a dime a dozen this wouldn't happen, but for *whatever* reason they're not easily replaceable.

The very same folks take one side of this and say a Chevy engineer, who may in fact be a top amateur driver and even approaching a lower level pro, has driven the ZR1 as quick as it can go are cheering for Max to drive the GTD. And these folks, most who have never even been to the Nurb let alone drove it, think Misha's analysis is garbage. Based on what? Your feelings?

This topic has brought out the most horrific kluge of dumba$$ery, ignorance and bias I have ever seen. If covid brought out all the wanna-be virologists, this topic has brought out similar "experts" on driving.

&odd@mn this site needs a "like" button.

[Cardiak]

Originally Posted by Joshinator99

Guess the “not a pro” part is hard to understand? You realize pro drivers are paid big bucks because…they are *consistently faster*! Did you watch Misha’s breakdown of the GM driver’s performance? I’m guessing not.



Uh, it’s easier to turn up the boost on a twin 76mm turbo engine than a supercharged engine. Again, now you’re needing to tinker with a near $400K car when the ZR1 is faster for half the price?!?



This.



Yep!

Sure, but power isn't a problem with the ZR1. It has plenty of it. The GTD has more downforce so giving it the same power as a ZR1 with a few bolt ons turns the tables. It already had a higher average speed around the track than the ZR1 with 200 less horsepower and weighing 600 pounds more.

[RobZL1]

Counterpoint: I don't give a darn either way. I can't afford either one, and I'm never going to drive on the 'Ring. I don't know Misha personally, nor do I claim to know everything about everything. Both are cool cars. If you gave me either one of them, I'd take it happily and enjoy the heck out of it. I do think it's cool that 2 US brands are both under 7 minutes on that track, though.