[Patriot Motorsports USA]

Originally Posted by radz28

Yeah. THPSI went into that a bit when Magnuson released the 2650. Saturation in the huge intercoolers and such, and how they didn't want the water to move too fast but enough such that the heat transferred. He was their President at the time, I belive.

All interesting. All I know is my MATs fall 10 degrees on a 4th Gear pull every time, even 100* heat.

I have done a lot of testing on this issue with our "SpeedRacer" offshore Poker Run/race boat, making sure the water stays in the engine's cooling systems when traveling 150+ mph on water with twin 1350/1550hp QC4V engines. So we had to build a huge water-box to slow the water down going through the intercoolers which have zero restriction at the outlet due to the 1.5" diameter hoses discharging free outside the hull.

Dustin Whipple is a huge contributor to the Offshore market, so it has been with great hesitance to learn the Whipple SCs have some issues in the car market. The bricks in those things are epically huge!! I cannot imagine spinning them so much slower to make the efficient power they are capable could be a bad thing... but it is when the SCHX is not matched for the volume of rejection necessary. While designing my system, I built it with the volume of the Maggie and Whipple bricks in full consideration. I just never anticipated the gains with the OEM 1.7SC would be so huge!

Greg Kong has been killing it with ported superchargers for the 450R & new 500R outboards... everyone I know who is running them love the solid gains!

[Joshinator99]

Originally Posted by radz28

Yeah. THPSI went into that a bit when Magnuson released the 2650. Saturation in the huge intercoolers and such, and how they didn't want the water to move too fast but enough such that the heat transferred. He was their President at the time, I belive.

All interesting. All I know is my MATs fall 10 degrees on a 4th Gear pull every time, even 100* heat.

Maggie 2650 and Whipple 3.0 bricks are so far ahead of anything that can be done for the 1.7 blower. The physical limitations of the 1.7 blower case simply do not allow you to get enough brick into them regardless of what you do. Huge heat exchangers mean nothing if the bricks can’t hold up the rest of the equation… it really is that simple. The 1.7 has been punching way above its weight class with all of the good work being done to them in the aftermarket (and I tip my cap to all those guys…that’s old school hot rodding!), but my argument is that all that time and energy still doesn’t get you to 2650/3.0 land. And the 1.7 rotor pack is way less efficient with a lower horsepower ceiling at the end of the day. So just write the check and get the better blower to begin with lol.

[2023_ZL1-AUTO]

Originally Posted by Joshinator99

Maggie 2650 and Whipple 3.0 bricks are so far ahead of anything that can be done for the 1.7 blower. The physical limitations of the 1.7 blower case simply do not allow you to get enough brick into them regardless of what you do. Huge heat exchangers mean nothing if the bricks can’t hold up the rest of the equation… it really is that simple. The 1.7 has been punching way above its weight class with all of the good work being done to them in the aftermarket (and I tip my cap to all those guys…that’s old school hot rodding!), but my argument is that all that time and energy still doesn’t get you to 2650/3.0 land. And the 1.7 rotor pack is way less efficient with a lower horsepower ceiling at the end of the day. So just write the check and get the better blower to begin with lol.

But "a Kong X-Ported and over spun 1.7 Eaton whines like a B#@CH !!! That said, I am so on the fence for going to a Maggie 2650 this fall, so much so... I might have already ordered one. Hmm, Gabe, please ignore this post! There nothing to see here!

[Akura]

There are people who, for one reason or another, want/need to keep the 1.7 Eaton, so let's stick to the source of the post and try to focus on the parts being asked about. Thanks.

[Joshinator99]

Originally Posted by Akura

There are people who, for one reason or another, want/need to keep the 1.7 Eaton, so let's stick to the source of the post and try to focus on the parts being asked about. Thanks.

You can keep the 1.7, but there are people who WON’T keep the 1.7 when they understand the physics involved. And this is a forum where we discuss these topics in depth, including facts you may not want to hear.

[clg82]

Originally Posted by Joshinator99

You can keep the 1.7, but there are people who WON’T keep the 1.7 when they understand the physics involved. And this is a forum where we discuss these topics in depth, including facts you may not want to hear.

Gabe after reading this is currently changing his whole website over to big boy blower mods now..........It would even be beneficial for him to go the Magnuson route with the Cali calibration CARB approved as well....sometimes it's hard to admit you made a mistake pouring the money into the lil guy...and that's ok too.....

[clg82]

Originally Posted by 2023_ZL1-AUTO

But "a Kong X-Ported and over spun 1.7 Eaton whines like a B#@CH !!! That said, I am so on the fence for going to a Maggie 2650 this fall, so much so... I might have already ordered one. Hmm, Gabe, please ignore this post! There nothing to see here!

With the DSX lid on my magnuson I can barely hear my wife yell at me for mashing the GO pedal from how loud the whine is......I think the 1.7 may be louder because it's screaming from how hot it is.....

[radz28]

Originally Posted by Joshinator99

Maggie 2650 and Whipple 3.0 bricks are so far ahead of anything that can be done for the 1.7 blower. The physical limitations of the 1.7 blower case simply do not allow you to get enough brick into them regardless of what you do. Huge heat exchangers mean nothing if the bricks can’t hold up the rest of the equation… it really is that simple. The 1.7 has been punching way above its weight class with all of the good work being done to them in the aftermarket (and I tip my cap to all those guys…that’s old school hot rodding!), but my argument is that all that time and energy still doesn’t get you to 2650/3.0 land. And the 1.7 rotor pack is way less efficient with a lower horsepower ceiling at the end of the day. So just write the check and get the better blower to begin with lol.

I remember Magnuson saying that their current line-up of brick-design come from Indy or NASCAR. I think that goes back to the 2300 (or the 2nd? version), but that little guy has been a little David this whole time. It's crazy there are guys making more than 1000 with them, but I think that's well beyond they typical build. We're talking cams and fuel that aren't really meant for the street, and those kinds of build, largely, are for the strip. Not to mention how many thousands the billet snouts on some of them cost... Still - it's come SO far.

Originally Posted by 2023_ZL1-AUTO

But "a Kong X-Ported and over spun 1.7 Eaton whines like a B#@CH !!! That said, I am so on the fence for going to a Maggie 2650 this fall, so much so... I might have already ordered one. Hmm, Gabe, please ignore this post! There nothing to see here!

Those little guys SCREEM! HAHAHA!!! For cereal?! NICE! Just make sure to add a billet lid, because unless you've dropped the motor (with motor mounts or something), you're going to need one. Either THPSI or DSX has one, and I don't think there's a performance difference. Both have nice dividers and I can't remember if DSX stated anything, but I know THPSI's lid volume is slightly greater than the stock Maggie lid by a little. They both clear the ZL1 hood (which is my only gripe about a Whipple - I just wouldn't want to cut the hood - EVERYTHING else is great on that), which is the biggest consideration, since you have PI plates.

NICE!!! You're going to need a short block if you push too much further, lol.

Originally Posted by Joshinator99

You can keep the 1.7, but there are people who WON’T keep the 1.7 when they understand the physics involved. And this is a forum where we discuss these topics in depth, including facts you may not want to hear.

+2. After spending the additional $$$ for all the work discussed, those that don't know, or be on the fence, might appreciate some of this stuff. In stock form, it barely keeps up with the target power they were looking for (due to meeting crash standards), and there was just not enough room to cramp more than what we were left with. BUT - at least we could, probably agree, it's great that there are awesome products available out there, from AWESOME Sponsors, that can help with some of the inefficiencies. Still, we haven't even talked about intercooler upgrades (here anyways) and heat exchangers and other stuff that it's too early for me to remember. A little less than 10-years ago, no one thought they could get more out of this little 1.7, but the hot rodders found ways. It's, really, awesome to see what out get out of the porting, though, IMO. I didn't even know they were porting the coolant passages. GM only paid for the minimum casting and machining, but Kong has really pushed the R&D, and if I were stuck with the 1.7, it's very nice these, and other products, are available. Shoot - I still have my less-than-800-mile-1.7.

JMHO

[radz28]

Originally Posted by clg82

With the DSX lid on my magnuson I can barely hear my wife yell at me for mashing the GO pedal from how loud the whine is......I think the 1.7 may be louder because it's screaming from how hot it is.....

Billet lids, including the 1.7, FTMFW! Just you wait, as you drop pulleys soon

[clg82]

Originally Posted by radz28

no one thought they could get more out of this little 1.7, but the hot rodders found ways.

JMHO

I may sound like an old guy, or maybe a young guy when I ask this question (I'm 40). Do you consider todays "hot rodders" guys that take the 1.7 blower off and send it to get ported, have a new pulley installed and get it tuned? My idea, of a "hot rodder" back in the day was someone who'd pull the engine in their garage throw a big block in/boring/stroking etc. Seems we use old words for old guys loosely these days....just my opinion....back to the regularly scheduled program lol.....

And btw Radz, wth are you doing up so early lol.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by clg82

I may sound like an old guy, or maybe a young guy when I ask this question (I'm 40). Do you consider todays "hot rodders" guys that take the 1.7 blower off and send it to get ported, have a new pulley installed and get it tuned? My idea, of a "hot rodder" back in the day was someone who'd pull the engine in their garage throw a big block in/boring/stroking etc. Seems we use old words for old guys loosely these days....just my opinion....back to the regularly scheduled program lol.....

And btw Radz, wth are you doing up so early lol.

I've got less than 10-years on you, but while I agree with you (I'm thinking a David Frieburger or a Tony Angelo-type), I think that's changed over the years. For many reasons, it's just different now, and with technology, there's no big block (they don't even really exist - maybe a Godzilla, but that's an icky FURD) that are more efficient than a stinky Coyote/HEMI/LT/LS. We're not going to take our LT4s out and swap for any LS (unless we're talking all-out drag car) or even a big block. You can run an LT4 out to near 1000, stock long block, and you couldn't do that with a big block without building it, and even then, could you cruise it around like an LT4-car (for example)?

It's different today, IMHO. I don't know that it's better, but with these kinds of GREAT products, I don't think we have to anymore. Maybe the CAI/ported blower/tune/FBO is the next gen hot rodder?

I don't know anything. Don't listen to me

OH - I get to leave earlier if I start earlier, LOL! Less traffic, too!

[2023_ZL1-AUTO]

Originally Posted by clg82

Gabe after reading this is currently changing his whole website over to big boy blower mods now..........It would even be beneficial for him to go the Magnuson route with the Cali calibration CARB approved as well....sometimes it's hard to admit you made a mistake pouring the money into the lil guy...and that's ok too.....

Well, the gloves have to come off at this point: clg82 – Why do you mostly always post and comment in such a negative manner, and take jabs at what others do to their cars? Maybe, what we do to our cars are mistakes from your point of view, but maybe not ours. Even your posts/comments about me having Katech do all the work they've done to my car is laughable. Yep, I've paid Katech a pile of money, and I'm happy with ever dollar I've spent. Did I need a Stage 2 interchiller, nope, did I want one, Yep, did I need THPSI, nope, did I want it, Yep, did I need my supercharger X-ported by Kong, Nope, did I want it X-Ported, Yep, can I afford a Maggie 2650, Yep, will I ever add a 2650 to my car, Maybe-Possibly-Probably! But, I did what I wanted, how I wanted. Did I waste money, I most certainly did and I don’t regret anything I’ve done along the way, even if it didn’t turn out to be exactly as expected. As for Gabe, he has put a lot of time and money into what he's doing, to help everyone be more informed, and most likely has help many along the way. Not everyone can afford to buy a $7000 Maggie 2650 and slap it on top their LT4. However, maybe they can swing a few thousand dollars here and there and get an X-Port and a pulley to up their power. It’s other people’s decision to mod their cars how they want, and that should be respected.

Edit: ZLElvira, you added as much data and knowledge as anyone! You and Gabe, both, have help us all navigate these waters with less guess! I appreciate both of you, test, time, and doing is expensive, and you both do it because your drive, your both car nerds and that's what makes this great!

[Patriot Motorsports USA]

Originally Posted by 2023_ZL1-AUTO

Well, the gloves have to come off at this point: clg82 – Why do you mostly always post and comment in such a negative manner, and take jabs at what others do to their cars? Maybe, what we do to our cars are mistakes from your point of view, but maybe not ours. Even your posts/comments about me having Katech do all the work they've done to my car is laughable. Yep, I've paid Katech a pile of money, and I'm happy with ever dollar I've spent. Did I need a Stage 2 interchiller, nope, did I want one, Yep, did I need THPSI, nope, did I want it, Yep, did I need my supercharger X-ported by Kong, Nope, did I want it X-Ported, Yep, can I afford a Maggie 2650, Yep, will I ever add a 2650 to my car, Yep! But, I did what I wanted, how I wanted. Did I waste money, I most certainly did and I don’t regret anything I’ve done along the way, even if it didn’t turn out to be exactly as expected. As for Gabe, he has put a lot of time and money into what he's doing, to help everyone be more informed, and most likely has help many along the way. Not everyone can afford to buy a $7000 Maggie 2650 and slap it on top their LT4. However, maybe they can swing a few thousand dollars here and there and get an X-Port and a pulley to up their power. It’s other people’s decision to mod their cars how they want, and that should be respected.

I love this post!!!


If the Maggie was the Be-All End-All of supercharging the LT4, just maybe all those track records that Louis Gigliotti Racing has been crushing with the ported 1.7SC could be faster...? #MaybeWithMaggie? I mean... since the gloves were left on the floor and using a MoTec, custom $30K in brakes and probably twice that in Aero alone... one would think, "Why Not Use A Maggie On It..?" Should be a drop in the proverbial bucket!

I might actually use a Whipple... bigger Bricks and I designed my SCHX system around such volume. I am crazy happy with my 4-5th gear rolling throttle to shred SC3Rs when they are warmed up torque at 2350rpms.

What I like is the throttle response and control of the 1.7L and I too will find the limits of it, data log what it can & cannot do... and then, pop on something different and start all over because I love this Camaro ZLE and while I could buy a BMW M2 Competition or the M4 or even a former LMP car would be perfect for my Road Atlanta adventures... but I love the Camaro and the community of others who love theirs too!

Meanwhile... here is Mike Skeen in a 2018 Norma/Duqueine M30 LMP3 race car that I could buy and have two years of spare parts for less money than a new C8 Z06!



EDIT

SO... you know when you catch a thread and then go back to read everything again.... yeah, I just did that.

I do love the whine... and I also love the NPP suitcase and the absolute stealth I have rolling through the paddock not making a sound, but then smoking past nearly everything and I mean everything (street legal that is..) on the track with the power this LT4 can deliver screaming for mercy!

I love that many people cannot go out and drop $30k+ on a built LTR and then add another $15-20K for supporting mods... so I help those who want to take it slow by fixing the issues the LT4 has with cooling, fueling, & tuning to make big gains while others swap cams, add bigger pulleys, and mega fuel pumps! And, while it has been mentioned (which is why I am editing this response) that we are all learning and gaining knowledge to tweak our individual needs/wants/desires for MORE POWAH as a community. So lets just effing GEAUX!!! And have some fun!!

The 60s were cool but we are so much faster... and we do it with Air Conditioning!!

[ZLRob]

I've been wrenching on engines professionally and as a hobby on the side for long enough to feel like an old dinosaur now with at least 20+ years under my belt. I've picked up A TON of knowledge along the way and I continue to learn something new everyday. Being a student of life and being receptive to understanding that you may not always have all the answers allows you to expand your own personal horizons and break down previous mental barriers about certain topics you may have previously had.

The Gen V platform is a tricky one to learn even for a experienced mechanic/ tuner. It's a miracle that these cars even run given how intricately complex they are both internally and externally. I'll be the first to admit that I felt a little in over my head at first, but once I fully committed to understanding it better, it started making more sense. This is especially true about the DI system (both mechanical and electrical) and the torque based tuning that GM switched over to on HPTuners.

That being said, once you have a general grasp of how different these engines are over their Gen III and Gen IV counterparts, you still have to remember that basic engine theory still pertains to this stuff. It's all about efficiency and maximizing airflow. That applies to everything equipped on it from the air to water cooling set ups that we have, cam sizing, and supercharger port jobs. If you overdo airflow or flow in general on any particular facet of these engines you will disturb the delicate balance of performance that these are tuned for and lose either throttle response, low end torque, powerband torque, horsepower up top or introduce overheating issues.

Some folks are okay with these losses and have their cars as dedicated track toys. There is a certain compromise that comes with setting up things certain ways. In other words, there is no such thing as a free lunch. I've always targeted in having a well balanced everyday driven street toy/ weapon. It's how I have built all of my setups and they perform very well.

I love the TVS2650 Magnuson blower, but that blower was not specifically blueprinted to work with our set ups and the fact that it moves as much air as it does requires modifications to your blower pulley setup and tune itself to overcome some of the difficulties that moving all that additional airflow presents.

I wouldn't run one on mine for a few reasons, one being emissions compliance. I do live in a state where that's a very real thing and running something like a 2650 is not allowed due to lack of certifications. The second being that these engines can and some do suffer from lack of punchiness down low if you run these right out of the box which is not my ideal situation. I want power everywhere. I could go on and on but I think you get the idea at this point. Me personally, I'm impressed with the results you can get out of porting the 1.7 blower. Just by switching over to a Jokerz full tilt ported blower and 30+ injectors netted me a solid 100+ HP increase alone and I preserved all of the power down low which is exactly how I want it and like it.

TLDR: make your LT4 as efficient and as cool as possible. Don't overspin your blower unless you have meth injection, and understand that during your build, the ideal scenario involves you (or whoever is spec'ing out things) using supporting mods which compliment and help your major mods function better or properly.