[SomeGeoffGuy]

Thank you for the heads up! That is crazy that they are sending full signal to the tweeters. I guess I should have expected that from Bose. I have a pretty good stash of caps, I will get something in there.

I am not planning on a DSP yet. I am trying to divide it up into small jobs so I can actually get something done.

-Geoff

[Msquared]

Originally Posted by SomeGeoffGuy

Thank you for the heads up! That is crazy that they are sending full signal to the tweeters. I guess I should have expected that from Bose. I have a pretty good stash of caps, I will get something in there.

First, I didn't realize your car is a 2SS. None of what I wrote may apply to your car: I was referring only to the system in a 1SS 1LE, which is not Bose at all and has no standalone amp in the trunk. I am pretty sure your Bose system sends a heavily EQ'd signal to all the speakers in your car: they tailor that EQ to the frequency response anomalies of the installed speakers. They are also 2-ohm speakers, and regular 4-ohm speakers like those AFs will probably play a lot more quietly as a result. Therefore, I don't know that dropping in much more linear and accurate speakers will give you a good result: it may or it may not. I guess you can try it, but I think with the 2SS Bose system, your only good option is to use a digital interface to pull a clean digital signal from your radio module, and then start all over with amps and speakers. You can't pull full-range, non-EQd speaker outputs from the radio module like I can from my 1SS 1LE, and all the stock Bose drivers would probably sound awful on a regular amp.

Second, in my car, the dash speakers don't see the full-range signal. As I mentioned, the full-range signal first goes through a capacitor that works as a high pass filter, and then what passes through that goes to the dash speakers. They only see about 600hz and higher.

I am not planning on a DSP yet. I am trying to divide it up into small jobs so I can actually get something done.

I don't think you'll be able to just tap a DSP unit into your Bose system, either, because any inputs into it would be post-process by the Bose DSP. If you can find a digital interface like I mentioned, it will include DSP with it. That would easily be the way to go for you.

Originally Posted by p47dman

Not all 1SS have an amp. Mine did not and I added Kicker 47 Key200.4 amp to mine.

That's what I have in my 1SS 1LE. I set it up to their "biamp" option so that it takes in just the full-range front pair of speaker signals and then it actively crosses over between my dash and door speakers (Audiofrog GS25 and GS69). I fade out the stock rear speakers. It works great, was cheap and light, and it was a pretty easy install.

[SomeGeoffGuy]

Originally Posted by Msquared

I don't think you'll be able to just tap a DSP unit into your Bose system, either, because any inputs into it would be post-process by the Bose DSP. If you can find a digital interface like I mentioned, it will include DSP with it. That would easily be the way to go for you.

I am not worried about how loud it is. It sounds terrible at half volume now with all the buzzing from the doors. So if I lose 50% volume, it's fine. This car is louder at half than my 2016 was at full, too, so I am not worried about it being too quiet. Going to do some dampning work on the doors in the spring, and I can't bear to put them back together with Bose Speakers.

On top of what you said relative to DSP, my car is a convertible, so there are also two modes of the Bose EQ - top up and top down. There are a couple solutions that pull the signal pre-bose, and at some point, that is where I will head.

The thing is, every time I try to do an all-in-one project, it just takes forever. So step one speakers. Step two add a sub, step three get an amp wired post Bose, step four get the DSP and get a pre-amp signal. If I try to do all that at once, it might be years. Going to try to do one a year. Maybe two if I can keep my wife from giving me home improvement projects!

-Geoff

[SWRocket]

Originally Posted by SomeGeoffGuy

I am not worried about how loud it is. It sounds terrible at half volume now with all the buzzing from the doors. So if I lose 50% volume, it's fine. This car is louder at half than my 2016 was at full, too, so I am not worried about it being too quiet. Going to do some dampning work on the doors in the spring, and I can't bear to put them back together with Bose Speakers.

On top of what you said relative to DSP, my car is a convertible, so there are also two modes of the Bose EQ - top up and top down. There are a couple solutions that pull the signal pre-bose, and at some point, that is where I will head.

The thing is, every time I try to do an all-in-one project, it just takes forever. So step one speakers. Step two add a sub, step three get an amp wired post Bose, step four get the DSP and get a pre-amp signal. If I try to do all that at once, it might be years. Going to try to do one a year. Maybe two if I can keep my wife from giving me home improvement projects!

-Geoff

My 2c on this...you would be better off doing things the other way. For a Bose system you need the Axxess AXDSPX-ETH1 integration device.
I would install that along with the GS25 and GS690 and use a Helix M6DSP. No sub yet)
Bridge 2 channels of the M6 to each of the 690s and you will have great sound (after tuning) Later you can add a Helix M1-X and a sub.
The 690s were designed to work well and give decent bass even without a sub. Set a 50Hz LR4 HP and a 300Hz LR4 LP on the 690s and a 300Hz LR4 HP on the GS25s. use the Helix ATM function or measuring tape to set time alignment. Audiofrog sells a great microphone that you can then use to measure and eq you system, either with the Helix TuneEQ or REW

[Msquared]

I agree with SW Rocket on this. I'm sure he knows much more about these things than I do, but we're on the same page. I can't see any way that the AF speakers are going to be tolerable (much less enjoyable) as drop-in replacements for the Bose junk. The volume/impedance situation is one thing, but the funky EQ stuff that they do to make $0.99 speakers sound decent is quite another.

If you didn't want to spring for the Helix 6ch amp right now, you could literally get any cheap (even used) 4-channel amp ($100 or less if you shop FB Marketplace) and use it to power the four AF speakers for now. In that scenario, I think you can use the Axxess controls to set EQ, delays, and filters (SWR, check me on that please). Site the amp anywhere in the trunk you want, the battery is also back there with easy-to-connect positive posts on the block next to it. It's not hard at all to run speedwire from the passenger footwell to the trunk and back for the when you're plugging in the Axxess: just pull the sill plate and the back seat bottom (5 minutes) and run the cables under the sill plate. To plug the Axxess in to the radio module, you probably don't have to pull the whole module out: I was able to plug my breakout harness into it by just removing the bottom multi-function bracket from the bottom of the dash above the passenger footwell, and then I could see and reach the plugs on the radio module that I needed. We can give more details on this when you're ready.

Then you could upgrade to the Helix later, and it would essentially drop in where the cheap interim amp is. You could also do the sub and 1ch Helix at that time, or put it off even longer. The advantage here is that you get three significant upgrade steps, and each one will give you real sonic upgrades that will be very noticeable (gratifying). The speakers are the hardest part either way. The GS25 and 690 play amazingly well even on the 50wpc of my little Kicker Key 200.4 amp. They will play a true 40hz and they are very efficient. People underestimate how low 40hz really is, because they almost never hear it (OE systems don't play that low, and neither do most home stereo systems). Depending on what you want from your stereo, you might even decide you don't need a sub.

[SomeGeoffGuy]

Originally Posted by Msquared

I can't see any way that the AF speakers are going to be tolerable (much less enjoyable) as drop-in replacements for the Bose junk.

We'll find out this spring! I am going to disagree with you that a treated door with Audiofrogs is not going to sound better than the garbage buzz machine I have now. The AF 6x9's are 92 dB efficient, which is much better than most 6x9s on the market. It might not be as loud, but there is no way that it won't sound better. I picked up a two-door kit from Resonix on their black Friday sale too (on back order of course), so I am doing it right, albeit more slowly. I want to pull the door apart once and be done with it, so I am willing to take the risk. Maybe it will suck? I will let you know!

And like I said, I plan on doing all that stuff you guys are saying. I just don't want to lose half the summer with my car torn apart (been there). I picked up a used Audison AV5.1k for a song last year. That amp will take high and low inputs, and do the crossover for a sub out - all built in. I am going to run that before I get a DSP. And yes, eventually it will get an AXXESS, a full DSP and probably another amp.

It's not money, it's time. You guys will get it when you get older.


-Geoff

[SWRocket]

You can use the Axxess for DSP (TA/EQ/XO) it's just limited and not very easy compared to the Helix. but it would still put you miles ahead of no DSP.
Most of the gains in SQ in car audio are gained from sound treatment, which you've done well on, and tuning.
Also, I'm 57 lol, so I do get it. I have a set of tweeters I have been trying to get to install for the last 18 months and simply cant get making the pillar adapters.

[Msquared]

Originally Posted by SomeGeoffGuy

We'll find out this spring! I am going to disagree with you that a treated door with Audiofrogs is not going to sound better than the garbage buzz machine I have now. The AF 6x9's are 92 dB efficient, which is much better than most 6x9s on the market. It might not be as loud, but there is no way that it won't sound better... I picked up a used Audison AV5.1k for a song last year. That amp will take high and low inputs, and do the crossover for a sub out - all built in. I am going to run that before I get a DSP.

The part you seem to be ignoring is that there are no speaker outputs from your Bose amp that are even close to flat. They are almost certainly EQd to hell and back to fill in massive holes, flatten massive peaks, and artificially extend the frequency response of the crappy drivers that came in the car. Your vastly-more-accurate AF drivers* will probably do way too good a job reproducing that roller coaster of a frequency curve being sent out by the Bose amp, and you'll suddenly hear a bunch of peaks, valleys, and over-emphasized extremes of frequency. Keep in mind that this is completely different from the stock 1SS 1LE radio module, which does output a flat signal to the front speakers. We have the luxury of being able to tap that for amps that accept speaker-level inputs, but those with the 2SS Bose setup do not. I hope I'm wrong and that it sounds great. Let us know.

*I know how good they are because I have them too.

PS - I wish someone here had the equipment to accurately measure the stock speaker-level signals across the audible frequency range so we could reall see what GM gave us. I don't mean inferring the responose from SPL measurements in the cabin: that includes the driver's own response, which confuses the issue. I mean measuring the electrical frequency response at the signal wires. We need that for each variant of the Camaro's sound systems, and each pair of speakers to which they send signals. I'm an electrical moron and have no equipment, so I can't do it.

[SomeGeoffGuy]

Originally Posted by Msquared

The part you seem to be ignoring is that there are no speaker outputs from your Bose amp that are even close to flat. They are almost certainly EQd to hell and back to fill in massive holes, flatten massive peaks, and artificially extend the frequency response of the crappy drivers that came in the car. Your vastly-more-accurate AF drivers* will probably do way too good a job reproducing that roller coaster of a frequency curve being sent out by the Bose amp, and you'll suddenly hear a bunch of peaks, valleys, and over-emphasized extremes of frequency. Keep in mind that this is completely different from the stock 1SS 1LE radio module, which does output a flat signal to the front speakers. We have the luxury of being able to tap that for amps that accept speaker-level inputs, but those with the 2SS Bose setup do not. I hope I'm wrong and that it sounds great. Let us know.

*I know how good they are because I have them too.

PS - I wish someone here had the equipment to accurately measure the stock speaker-level signals across the audible frequency range so we could reall see what GM gave us. I don't mean inferring the responose from SPL measurements in the cabin: that includes the driver's own response, which confuses the issue. I mean measuring the electrical frequency response at the signal wires. We need that for each variant of the Camaro's sound systems, and each pair of speakers to which they send signals. I'm an electrical moron and have no equipment, so I can't do it.

I am not ignoring anything. My plan is my plan. I know exactly what you are saying, have known it, and am going to stick with this plan knowing full well it could suck. It could also not suck, or sound almost the same. I know this is the internet, and you think you are saving me from sticking my hand in a garbage disposal, but I assure you that this isn't a big deal.

My stereo sucks now, I estimate a 20% chance it is worse with the AFs in the door, and even if it is, I will just be one summer. I am coming up on my third summer living with terrible factory sound, so I think I can handle it. I am not painting over a Monet painting here, I am taking the art that a dog made on a pee pad and throwing it in the trash, then putting out a new pee pad for the next art installation.

In terms of the current Bose woofers in the doors - I would bet money that they perform well on paper. They have extended low frequency because of the noise cancellation - which generally runs well below 100 Hz. I bet they go down to 30 Hz or lower to cancel the exhaust 2nd and 4th order drones. I'll save them if anyone wants to run them through an analyzer.

-Geoff

[SomeGeoffGuy]

Originally Posted by SWRocket

You can use the Axxess for DSP (TA/EQ/XO) it's just limited and not very easy compared to the Helix. but it would still put you miles ahead of no DSP.
Most of the gains in SQ in car audio are gained from sound treatment, which you've done well on, and tuning.
Also, I'm 57 lol, so I do get it. I have a set of tweeters I have been trying to get to install for the last 18 months and simply cant get making the pillar adapters.

I used to listen to Dark Side of the Moon all the time. But now, every time I listen to the words of "Time" it just makes me sad.

"You are young and life is long
And there is time to kill today
And then one day you find
Ten years have got behind you
No one told you when to run
You missed the starting gun".

A high end DSP is the ultimate goal. I wish there was a better way to get the pre-amp signal, though. The Axxess just basically ends up being a $500 line out converter to get signal to your $1000 Helix. A local Helix installer spent ten minutes assuring me that he could get the stock signal EQed properly, so I asked him how he could do two different modes to automatically account for the top up and down? He just looked at me like "What?"

I hear NAV-TV's new hardware is in Beta testing, so maybe I will have a choice in 2026 or so whenever I get everything else done. (Probably not cheaper though unless Pac Audio makes something...)

-Geoff

[Msquared]

Originally Posted by SomeGeoffGuy

In terms of the current Bose woofers in the doors - I would bet money that they perform well on paper. They have extended low frequency because of the noise cancellation - which generally runs well below 100 Hz. I bet they go down to 30 Hz or lower to cancel the exhaust 2nd and 4th order drones. I'll save them if anyone wants to run them through an analyzer.

The AF GS690s go down to 42hz at -3dB, which is actually pretty low as 6x9s go. I bet the Bose speakers on their own don't approach that. It takes real money in materials to make that happen, whereas the whole point of the 2SS system is to spend as little on materials/hardware as possible - but use lots of those cheap drivers - and then make it sound decent with lots and lots of EQ. Hell, Bose made a huge company doing this with home stereos many decades ago. I bet those 6x9s in your doors are the equivalent of an Aliexpress 6x9 and won't go much below 60hz at -3dB. But they have a massive spike in the EQ starting around 60hz and lower to make up for it, and because they also have similar speakers in the deck, they can make it work. If you look those speakers up, they are almost identical to the 6x9s in the doors of 1SS cars, with teeny little magnets that can't possibly drive the kind of excursion required to get an honest 40hz from a 6x9.

It would be interesting to get a legit frequency response for them, though; just as it would to get the response of their input signals. If you ever get them measured somehow, let us know what you find out.

[p47dman]

That's what I have in my 1SS 1LE. I set it up to their "biamp" option so that it takes in just the full-range front pair of speaker signals and then it actively crosses over between my dash and door speakers (Audiofrog GS25 and GS69). I fade out the stock rear speakers. It works great, was cheap and light, and it was a pretty easy install.
__________________
Matt Miller
2020 SS 1LE






Yup, super simple and very cost effective for what you get. She sounds great. Although, I have entertained the idea of a sub in the trunk drivers side.

[speedyink1]

Originally Posted by p47dman

That's what I have in my 1SS 1LE. I set it up to their "biamp" option so that it takes in just the full-range front pair of speaker signals and then it actively crosses over between my dash and door speakers (Audiofrog GS25 and GS69). I fade out the stock rear speakers. It works great, was cheap and light, and it was a pretty easy install.

So wait, no amp necessary, just the stock 1SS 1LE amp?

Like, basically just drop these in place of the stock speakers essentially? Or did I miss the part about the amp?

I see the OP did do what I'm thinking anyway. Just curious if the volume ends up low? I mean, I think it would still be loud enough for me as I don't really like my music deafeningly loud, but I am curious. If it's the same volume as the stock speakers I'd be ok with it. A simple solution for a nicer frequency curve output is really tempting......

[Msquared]

Originally Posted by speedyink1

So wait, no amp necessary, just the stock 1SS 1LE amp?

Like, basically just drop these in place of the stock speakers essentially? Or did I miss the part about the amp?

I see the OP did do what I'm thinking anyway. Just curious if the volume ends up low? I mean, I think it would still be loud enough for me as I don't really like my music deafeningly loud, but I am curious. If it's the same volume as the stock speakers I'd be ok with it. A simple solution for a nicer frequency curve output is really tempting......

The post just above yours was really part of my post #16 four days ago. I'm not actually sure how p47dman did that!* Go back and re-read that.

The Kicker KEY200.4 is an aftermarket amp that takes speaker-level inputs, outputs 50wpc on four channels, has internal and automated DSP, and offers a couple different configurations. We both use that amp. I'm using it in it's "biamp" setup to power Audiofrog GS690s in my doors and GS25s in my dash (I have a 1SS 1LE that came with no factory amp in the trunk). It's a great setup for a cost-effective, light, and space-efficient system that sounds good.

You can't just drop in replacement speakers like the AFs. Both the door and dash get full-range front-channel signals from the radio module, and you won't want to send the full low frequencies to 2.5" dash speakers. They won't last long that way. The factor speakers have little capacitors wired across their terminals, and this creates a high-pass filter at around 600hz. It's kind of a crude crossover, I guess...sort of. The door speakers get the full range, which won't hurt them because they just can't play the high frequencies. Anyway, if you drop in new dash speakers (either 2.5" twiddlers or smaller tweeters, you either need to do a high-pass filter for them or implement a proper passive or active crossover between them and the door speakers.

Before I added that amp, I first dropped the four AF speakers and ran them off the factory speaker signals (there is an amp chip in the radio module to power them, but it's weak and of poor sound quality). I specifically chose the AF speakers because they were efficient (to work with minimal factory power) and aimed at good sound quality for a reasonable price. Also, you can email them a question and their head honcho/designer, Andy Wehmeyer, will actually reply. Anyway, the factory signals powered the speakers reasonably well. They did make a decent improvement in sound, mainly in detail and frequency extension at both ends. They played roughly as loud as the factory speakers: in the non-Bose system, the stock speakers are 4ohm and therefore you don't lose volume due to an increase in impedance with aftermarket speakers (the Bose speakers are 2ohm). What they didn't do well in this setup was integrate the dash door speakers: there was a pretty obvious transition from one to the other, and there really was no soundstage to speak of.

When I installed the GS25s in this first round, I reused the factory capacitors on the dash speakers (cut them off and added them to the new AFs), which still made for a high-pass frequency of around 600hz, just as with the stock speakers. In retrospect, that was a mistake. I should have used bigger caps that would have given a high-pass frequency of around 200hz to take advantage of the GS25's much wider frequency range compared to the stock dash speaker. I think that would have helped the speakers integrate somewhat better. I thought about trying that, but I went with the little Kicker amp/DSP instead. It made a world of difference, and it was less than $300.

I started a thread on my journey, and it details all of this. There are some other similar options out there now, and I don't know if one is better than another. However, for less than $300 and getting the DSP along with it, I see no point in just dropping replacement speakers in and trying to fiddle with capacitors for a "crossover." Just add the Kicker amp or something similar. It's easy to install (see my thread) and gives much better results.

*As an aside, if you actually own/fly/wrench a P-47D, I'm going to be super-duper impressed!