[Jofu]

Tough crowd

[arpad_m]

This venerable forum engine has an ignore feature, and the number of users on my ignore list has grown to 30 over the years. Interestingly enough, it doesn't have a counterpart amplify or highlight feature, and I wish it did.

That second list of mine would be at least a similar size, if not larger, however, I'm afraid DaveC113 wouldn't make it. Not that he should care, I'm just saying, hopefully lightening the mood a bit in this ominous thread

[DaveC113]

Sorry to force any unwanted introspection. I'm not saying those who defeat emissions devices are bad people. It's socially acceptable in enthusiast circles, but if you polled the general public I think you'd find a vast majority of people would not be in favor of it, and I'm absolutely sure that includes people of every political persuasion. It used to be socially acceptable to drink and drive, and go back far enough and it'd include burning witches and owning slaves. Thankfully we live and learn.

It's been shown that leaded gas actually measurably decreased IQ of nearly everyone reading this, and it's also true that NOx and particulates from gas and diesel engines has had a negative impact on our health. The fact that not very many people illegally defeat emissions equipment isn't justification to do it. It also has nothing to do with climate change. These are the two most common arguments in favor of defeating emissions equipment, but they don't hold water.

I think I've made an excellent case for NOT defeating emissions equipment, and if anyone here can make a reasonable argument that isn't full of logical fallacies as to why they consider it acceptable, I'm 100% willing to consider it.

[eimarshall]

Succinctly put Dave.

[s346k]

so what if we remove cats and run our cars on ethanol? someone do some fact checking to see how it compares to the emissions standards for gasoline and cats in place.

[dmcmahan60]

Originally Posted by GreyGhost702

Don't say it's not political. It's absolutely political. It's government agencies flexing it's will. As Classic pointed out, it's always been a witch hunt. You're talking about the smallest minority of people. You know what's a bigger problem than people jaywalking on emissions laws? ****ing car theft. What are government agencies doing about that? Shit all. Why? Because they make money on it.

Speaking of The Fast & Furious franchise. It just outlines the political problem further. When people celebrate the outlaws and despise their representatives, there's a problem. And I'm not talking about the street takeover crowd, those people are just clowns better suited to making license plates.

This ^

[18.2SS.1LE]

What's next, the environmental impact of excess emissions, brake dust and tire rubber in the air from tracking your car? You don't HAVE to race your car for fun, so why negatively affect the environment when you should just use it to commute?

[GreyGhost702]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

I think I've made an excellent case for NOT defeating emissions equipment, and if anyone here can make a reasonable argument that isn't full of logical fallacies as to why they consider it acceptable, I'm 100% willing to consider it.

Like condoms, life is more fun without them.

[m6-lt1]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

I think I've made an excellent case for NOT defeating emissions equipment, and if anyone here can make a reasonable argument that isn't full of logical fallacies as to why they consider it acceptable, I'm 100% willing to consider it.

I mostly agree with what you're saying as I don't believe it's worth dealing with the raspy sound and smell for 10 HP (that's all you're getting NA) but I'll give you 2 examples.

1) Folks making big boy horsepower (think 700+ whp) kind of need to delete the cats. At those power levels you can clog the cats and that can be a very expensive ordeal.

2) There is so much emissions equipment on modern diesels and they are prone to failure. When they fail it's $$$. If I was in charge I'd make it a law for folks to be allowed to bypass that crap until the oems fix the issues with them.

[242ss1LE]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

The diesel truck modders, especially the coal rollers, are mostly to blame. But the acceptance of removing catalytic converters on street driven vehicles is also a major issue and I think that's why COBB was a target. Catless downpipes are one of the first mods many Subie folks go to. People discuss removing cats on car forums regularly, catless exhaust systems are sold in numbers that massively exceed the number of cars used only on track.

I've posted many times that it's selfish and almost sociopathic to remove emissions equipment on street cars, but oh well... this is what we get. This is the beginning, the EPA's position is that cars sold for street use may not be converted into race cars, and that's where it'll end... with EVERYTHING needing a certification that the parts sold do not cause the vehicle to produce excess emissions.

I'd like to be able to say it's just a few rotten apples but it's not, car culture has been going downhill since the Fast and the Furious. This is the inevitable result.

And don't make this political. It's not. The problem is car culture that has blatantly disregarded the law.

Thank god they are stopping cars from taking off cats I don’t know what are environment would do I mean with all these space ships taking off from space x mines in South America destroying the forest so you can have your newest iPhone or android coal mines in china and India that produce 10 times the pollution than American coal mines do but thank got they are worried about car emissions

[242ss1LE]

Originally Posted by 18.2SS.1LE

What's next, the environmental impact of excess emissions, brake dust and tire rubber in the air from tracking your car? You don't HAVE to race your car for fun, so why negatively affect the environment when you should just use it to commute?

Stop bringing real concerns og poster is working on feelings stick with feelings sad part is they have ways to combat the brake dust problem and choose not to but it’s ok let’s go after the fraction of 1 percent of people that take there cats off

[m6-lt1]

Originally Posted by 242ss1LE

Stop bringing real concerns og poster is working on feelings stick with feelings sad part is they have ways to combat the brake dust problem and choose not to but it’s ok let’s go after the fraction of 1 percent of people that take there cats off

If the above is true (started doing my own research as I don’t believe the first thing I read. So far I’ve found brakes and tires do make a lot of emissions but haven’t confirmed it’s more than exhaust pipe emissions. Have not looked very long) this means EV’s pollute more when being DRIVEN. The one thing ev drivers would say is that while their cars pollute more when being built, they pollute less over X amount of miles. If brakes really do pollute that much than that means ev’s pollute more. An ev lightning weighs more than an ev f150 therefore more brake dust and tire wear.

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by m6-lt1

If the above is true (started doing my own research as I don’t believe the first thing I read. So far I’ve found brakes and tires do make a lot of emissions but haven’t confirmed it’s more than exhaust pipe emissions. Have not looked very long) this means EV’s pollute more when being DRIVEN. The one thing ev drivers would say is that while their cars pollute more when being built, they pollute less over X amount of miles. If brakes really do pollute that much than that means ev’s pollute more. An ev lightning weighs more than an ev f150 therefore more brake dust and tire wear.

EVs often don't use brakes as much as regular cars due to regenerative braking, and while they can plow through tires it depends on the driver. Some have a chill accel mode that doesn't apply the torque as abruptly which can save tires.

On cats, if nobody had cats pollution in urban areas would be a massive issue and cost us a ton of money in healthcare and result in a decrease in quality of life and overall shorter lifespans.

I don't work on feelings, I'm an engineer. I only care about facts and reality. Those who remove cats are going to be the ones working with bias and feelings on this subject. But you can do research and know the truth if you want to.

[MyNameIs]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

The diesel truck modders, especially the coal rollers, are mostly to blame. But the acceptance of removing catalytic converters on street driven vehicles is also a major issue and I think that's why COBB was a target. Catless downpipes are one of the first mods many Subie folks go to. People discuss removing cats on car forums regularly, catless exhaust systems are sold in numbers that massively exceed the number of cars used only on track.

I've posted many times that it's selfish and almost sociopathic to remove emissions equipment on street cars, but oh well... this is what we get. This is the beginning, the EPA's position is that cars sold for street use may not be converted into race cars, and that's where it'll end... with EVERYTHING needing a certification that the parts sold do not cause the vehicle to produce excess emissions.

I'd like to be able to say it's just a few rotten apples but it's not, car culture has been going downhill since the Fast and the Furious. This is the inevitable result.

And don't make this political. It's not. The problem is car culture that has blatantly disregarded the law.

We will fix this nonsense after January.