[DaveC113]

Track throttle mapping from the factory is about as linear as it gets.

Race works as you describe but I think you'll find all nannies off to be faster with more experience.

[JamesNoBrakes]

1.5-2s pretty easy IME. If you can, do your first lap learning the course with all the nannies off, the lap where you aren't pushing it, that lets you gradually turn it up. Watch steering angle and throttle application, but the difference between any nannies and none is pretty dramatic for time.

[sab123]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

1.5-2s pretty easy IME. If you can, do your first lap learning the course with all the nannies off, the lap where you aren't pushing it, that lets you gradually turn it up. Watch steering angle and throttle application, but the difference between any nannies and none is pretty dramatic for time.

The first lap is kind of the worst to do with nannies off, on the cold tires, where even in race mode it starts sliding.


The other thing is that the car doesn't like to be pushed, enter a turn a little too fast and it just goes straight (my guess is that maybe the reason for that is the same as for touchy throttle: stiff shock rebound setting). Instead you have to enter the turn slow and accelerate out of it, like with an FWD car. The fast laps feel like a Sunday drive, just smooth and effortless.

[JamesNoBrakes]

Originally Posted by sab123

The first lap is kind of the worst to do with nannies off, on the cold tires, where even in race mode it starts sliding.


The other thing is that the car doesn't like to be pushed, enter a turn a little too fast and it just goes straight (my guess is that maybe the reason for that is the same as for touchy throttle: stiff shock rebound setting). Instead you have to enter the turn slow and accelerate out of it, like with an FWD car. The fast laps feel like a Sunday drive, just smooth and effortless.

I've tried it both ways. PTM Race seems a little bit safer for the first lap...but the first lap you aren't pinning it because you are learning a the course, that and a little slippage really helps to incrementally build your confidence IMO, so if you are naturally taking it a little easier on that first lap, no issues running everything off. One of the best pieces of advice I got autoXing was to turn everything off. This is the safe environment where you can really learn the car.

[sab123]

Some update:


As time got close to the national tour event, I've mounted the new tires. As the outside temperatures got finally into 70s, the car got much easier to control with PTM off. I've done a couple of events on these tires before, but in 50-degree temps with occasional drizzle, and then kept using the old tires.



So in a local event with lots of runs I've tried the PTM off, and this time I've got within 0.05 s from race mode, the best so far. And then on the next ran I went to bracket it with race mode, and went another 0.5 s faster, so here goes the parity... Though the runs were very close on the recording, I've just found more time in one section. This also got me matched with a nationally competitive driver (other than that he's done it in 3 runs, I did in 12).


Next thing, I went to an Evo school before the national tour, and since it's all practice, went with PTM off. There I've got a very valuable advice that sometimes it's better to break less or just lift earlier that improved my time by a seocnd on a sub-25-second course (and got me a couple of tenths ahead of the instructor's run). This is a really useful advice that I've got first when I started autocrossing about 25 years ago but I keep forgetting in all the excitement :-) Well, switched to PTM in race mode, and went another 0.2 s quicker. Turned it off again - and this time matched to the hundredth! Still, been more consistent in race mode.


First day of national tour, I went with race mode. The first run was not real good, and I've also hit a cone. Well, the second run will be better... NOT. No cones but 0.7s slower. I kind of overdrove it, and then the tires started feeling slippery, so probably this overheated them for the run too. Third run, still slower than first, but only by 0.2s, and then a late cone call. Which left me just before last in FS, and last Camaro, 2.2s off the leader (and my first run would be 1.5 s off if not coned).


Second day, went off course on the first run, and then decided that since my before-last place is pretty much guaranteed :-) I'll try turning PTM off. Improved by a 0.5s and clean, despite a major error (so hey, there seems to be a good potential!), and then on the last run improved by another 1 second. Which left me 1 s behind the leader for this course. So maybe PTM off is the ticket but I've also had a couple of sizable slides on the last run (and even worse on the second run), and maybe PTM in race mode could have helped me with that. The race mode seems to have a difficult moment at the start, where lifting the gas to get through the first kink makes the engine bog down. Turning PTM off avoided that, and on these two runs, especially the last run, I've had a much better start and first slalom.


On the overall PAX-indexed sheet, not quite as bad though: 170th out of 270 on day 1 (would be about 135th without the cone on the first run), 82nd on day 2, and overall 123rd out of 270, or would be about 100th without that cone.


And I'm still not sure which way is better, with decent weather on decent tires PTM race mode and off are very close for me at the moment. I think there is also a difference of national courses being faster: in the same lot, the local courses are typically closer to 80 seconds, not 50 seconds, and with faster courses I think turning PTM off might be better.


BTW, speaking of tires, we had a Bridgestone RE-71RS, Nankang, and Yokohama (me), and they seem all very comparable to each other. I don't think that I've screwed up because of the tires, I think they could catch up if I could :-)

[joelster]

I'm telling you straight up, that there is no way in hell that any of the modes will be as fast as turning all of them off, with regards to autocross. A full-on racetrack is a different story. You're aggression level isn't quite there yet to have the car right on the razors edge when turning and applying power. If your driving level is taking the car to 90-95%, then you'll feel the modes interfering with what you want the car to do. My best advice for you is to do a local event, and get a co-driver that is really fast. You'll feel your own car going into turns faster, and you'll hear the rpm's that the other driver is taking the engine to. Stuff will start to click in your head.

Story time-I did a local at MBR region in PA. I was working the course, and there was a novice guy running a blue 1LE. He was mid-pack in novice. That night I found him on facebook and found out he lives 10 minutes from me. I told him to sign up for the next WNY event, and he did. On his first set of runs, I hopped in and took his car for a lap with him riding shotgun. I did a 40.0 or something. I was pushing his car to maybe 90% of what it had, talking the entire time, showing him lines, showing him how to check up in areas, to be able to apply power sooner for longer sections. It absolutely LIT A FIRE IN HIS ASS! 1 lap was all it took. He proceeded to smoke the class, and he doesn't look anything like a novice now as he smoked the class by over 2 seconds. Now he's running in CAM and doing very well.

[clyde]

I'd recommend turning off ESC completely every time (unless it's really wet) and learning. Even if one of the PTM modes can help you go a little quicker right now, it will quickly become a crutch and prevent you from becoming a better and quicker driver.

Like Joel suggested, getting fast people in your car will help, too.

The Evo schools right before a National event are a good step in that direction because the people that instruct at them know what they're doing, usually pretty good at communication, and it gets them in your car where they can demonstrate and offer advice while riding shotgun with you driving. The biggest downside is that they're limited in what they can offer because of time and everything else going on to ensure the main event can run. "Full" schools can be a lot more helpful.

[sab123]

Originally Posted by joelster

You're aggression level isn't quite there yet to have the car right on the razors edge when turning and applying power.

Half of my problem is actually the opposite: I tend to get on the gas too early and too much. And the traction control saves me from it by backing off.


The other half is about doing less braking and more early lifting the gas, so that the car is more settled before the turn.

Originally Posted by joelster

If your driving level is taking the car to 90-95%, then you'll feel the modes interfering with what you want the car to do. My best advice for you is to do a local event, and get a co-driver that is really fast. You'll feel your own car going into turns faster, and you'll hear the rpm's that the other driver is taking the engine to.

Well, the earlier settling, that second half, definitely helps with that. But otherwise entering the turns too fast doesn't work with this car at all. It won't rotate, it would just plow straight.

Originally Posted by joelster

He proceeded to smoke the class, and he doesn't look anything like a novice now as he smoked the class by over 2 seconds. Now he's running in CAM and doing very well.

Well, that depends a lot on who is in the class :-) When the competition is not too strong, I do smoke the class by 2 seconds too, just done it a week ago :-) With more competition, I'm usually close with one of the guys who instructed at that evo school, me with FS Camaro, him with BS Corvette, sometimes I'm slightly ahead, sometimes he is, even on absolute time, let alone index. Once in a while on a particularly lucky day I beat on index a local national champion or two who have a less lucky day (we have at least 8 of them here and a bunch more people who strongly placed nationally).

[cdrptrks]

Originally Posted by sab123

Half of my problem is actually the opposite: I tend to get on the gas too early and too much. And the traction control saves me from it by backing off.

The other half is about doing less braking and more early lifting the gas, so that the car is more settled before the turn.

Well, the earlier settling, that second half, definitely helps with that. But otherwise entering the turns too fast doesn't work with this car at all. It won't rotate, it would just plow straight.

It is hard to tell just from reading what you wrote, but if you're coasting through the turns it would be faster to trail brake through them to minimize the amount of time coasting (and therefore increase average speed) in most cases. If you have some braking while turning it transfers more weight over the front wheels to prevent plowing straight (to a point... physics still apply if you enter too fast). But if you overslow while trail braking then it might cause worse times. Also if you start throttle application too soon it transfers weight towards the rear wheels and away from the front wheels which will also cause the car to understeer/plow and result in worse times because it will cause you to get back to full throttle later than you could have.

If you don't already have a data system so you can see cornering g forces after your run, it would be a good idea to get one to help analyze your runs and find things you can do to improve. Solostorm with a 10Hz GPS receiver is popular for autocross.

[joelster]

Originally Posted by sab123

Half of my problem is actually the opposite: I tend to get on the gas too early and too much. And the traction control saves me from it by backing off.


The other half is about doing less braking and more early lifting the gas, so that the car is more settled before the turn.






Well, the earlier settling, that second half, definitely helps with that. But otherwise entering the turns too fast doesn't work with this car at all. It won't rotate, it would just plow straight.







Well, that depends a lot on who is in the class :-) When the competition is not too strong, I do smoke the class by 2 seconds too, just done it a week ago :-) With more competition, I'm usually close with one of the guys who instructed at that evo school, me with FS Camaro, him with BS Corvette, sometimes I'm slightly ahead, sometimes he is, even on absolute time, let alone index. Once in a while on a particularly lucky day I beat on index a local national champion or two who have a less lucky day (we have at least 8 of them here and a bunch more people who strongly placed nationally).

Don't ever go by who's in your class that day, always go by the PAX index overall. You can get complacent if you have a big lead in your class. I race with the MBR region in PA and they don't have a pro class which drives me nuts. It's literally the same guys winning each class over and over, but if we were all in the same class, we'd have a battle on our hands. Pace yourself against a very consistent and very fast local guy. See how close you get event after event.

Oh BTW, you have a troll out there in that region lol. That Stephen Bagnall guy. Don't take advice from him. He drives a 3rd gen Camaro in CAM-T. He's literally been laughed off of most of the forums. He puts everybody on block that he doesn't agree with. I could tell you some stories lol.

[JamesNoBrakes]

Great runs today and again thanks to DaveC113 for his wheels. I think it took a few races to get the tires properly heat-cycled AND the pressure figured out, but man, last few races have been great. We did two courses today and I got 1st open on both. I'm worried they are going to class me in expert soon! 1st race was dry. 2nd race was raining. It was wet when I went...but it was wetter for the later run groups and I had great finish-laps. I have to say it again, because it's the point of many people's posts here, but you have to run this with everything off to get the most out of it. You have to learn when to brake and slow down so you can wrap around the turn and then wait until you have decreased the steering angle enough to get back on the power. We had a guy in a C8 just going "balls out" and they were never fast or consistent...and I've seen that exact same chassis turn out crazy fast times for a novice. The rain and wet is another great place to learn it, because it exaggerates everything. Run it with everything off, improve, keep modulating throttle, thinking about braking points, etc. If I could have given one piece of advice today to all the newer drivers on the courses, it would be slow down more before the turns. Just hit the brakes harder and earlier.

[sab123]

Originally Posted by joelster

Don't ever go by who's in your class that day, always go by the PAX index overall. You can get complacent if you have a big lead in your class.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying too. Though PAX seems to be based on the national events, and those tend to be faster than the local events, even when running in the same lot. It gets really ridiculous when PAX gets applied to the first-gear courses.

Originally Posted by joelster

Oh BTW, you have a troll out there in that region lol. That Stephen Bagnall guy. Don't take advice from him. He drives a 3rd gen Camaro in CAM-T. He's literally been laughed off of most of the forums. He puts everybody on block that he doesn't agree with. I could tell you some stories lol.

Yeah, I know Stephen. With this car, we're usually close on time too.



For the "brake vs lift", I think there are multiple of things to it. One is that trail-braking is easier to do in long fast corners where you have a long braking zone. When you have a tight group of slow turns, it's real easy to brake just a little too late and get the line a little late in the first turn, and more late in the second turn, getting worse and worse, pinching the exit from the last turn and ultimately forcing you to slow down when you need to be accelerating.


The second thing about slaloms in particular and connected turns with no straights between them in general is that it really pays to carry more speed in the turns with a smoother line instead of accelerating and braking. When you're accelerating and braking, you give up the lateral g-force, and if you don't have a sizable straight after exiting the turn, the trade-off results in a loss. I have a few in-car videos from over 10 years ago with my 4th-gen Camaro. One run does an acceleration exiting each turn and braking before the next one, making little straights between the turns, the other run just carries speed in a smoother line. You can hear the difference in the engine sound easily. The second run feel much less exciting but ends up much quicker, probably by a couple of seconds if I remember right.



The third thing is that in my previous cars I've tried to set them up such that they would get a little unstable under trail braking, and I essentially could adjust the rotation a good deal by adjusting the braking. Not so with this car, to get it to turn in, you really need to let go of the brakes. Yeah, some trail-braking works but only very little. When seeing that oops, I'm not making this turn as-is, it's push the brake, release, then turn in more, not the other way around. With a really big mistake on speed, it's even unwind the steering, brake, release, turn in again. My guess is that it's probably caused by the rebound setting on the front shocks being pretty harsh.

[sab123]

I've been driving on a course with a long 1st-gear section after the start yesterday, and I've had this insight about lifting, i.e. engine braking: On an RWD car when we do the engine braking, we're braking with the rear wheels only. But we're still braking, so there is still the weight transfer to the front and increase of the front contact patches, only without any braking force on the front wheels, it all goes towards turning. The rear wheels on the other hand get both light and have the braking force on them, so the total result is that the car gets more twitchy (minus the counter-action by the 5-link rear suspension).



Some 15 years ago I used to have a Fox-body Mustang as a club race car, with the rear drum brakes that didn't do much but keep the car stable. The car also had a clutch-based LSD, and my friend had put a few extra clutch disks into it, so it was almost solid. So I've developed this method for the turns: At the end of the braking zone, when already turning in, I'd downshift and that would break off the rear wheels and start the car rotating. Then I'd quickly get on the gas, to keep the car rotating and power out of the turns.

[JamesNoBrakes]

The whole point is to not break the rear wheels though. I can do some great drift turns that are fun and rotate the car, but it's not fast. It's not fast and it's not tight. The guy I saw above in a C8 was breaking the rear end loose around every turn. And that chassis has much better dynamics for putting the power down with mid-engine. That doesn't fix bad driving though. I like either here or in the other thread where someone was discussing how to roll the throttle on as you are rolling the steering angle out. Finessing this is key. Braking before a turn IMO you are going to be significantly overpowering the engine braking anyway, then you'll keep an amount of throttle in so that it's not "coasting with engine braking". Then you'll roll the power on as you are taking the steering angle out.