[JSH]

What have you heard about any hp increase the Harrop LT unit offers over the Edelbrock?

[ZL1Atlanta]

Haven’t seen many use the Harrop with the LT’s. Edelbrock and Magnuson jumped on the train so early that I think the market got saturated and then new owners follows those that laid the path to success. That said, it has always been known that a ported Edelbrock 2650 is about equal to non-ported Magnuson 2650 at the same blower RPM. Ported Magnuson 2650’s have seen 60-80 RWHP gains over non-ported with the same pulley’s, but the ceiling is MUCH higher if you have the fueling and belt under control, and then the engine to survive it. If stock block, you will need to sleeve it to fully utilize a ported Maggie 2650 (I know first hand).

[JSH]

Originally Posted by ZL1Atlanta

Haven’t seen many use the Harrop with the LT’s. Edelbrock and Magnuson jumped on the train so early that I think the market got saturated and then new owners follows those that laid the path to success. That said, it has always been known that a ported Edelbrock 2650 is about equal to non-ported Magnuson 2650 at the same blower RPM. Ported Magnuson 2650’s have seen 60-80 RWHP gains over non-ported with the same pulley’s, but the ceiling is MUCH higher if you have the fueling and belt under control, and then the engine to survive it. If stock block, you will need to sleeve it to fully utilize a ported Maggie 2650 (I know first hand).

It's LME's block, rated 1400. Kong told me recently that ported Eddie and Maggie are close in hp. I don't think my hpfp will support another 100 hp but Stanadyne's will. Adding more fuel is simpler than adding more air.

[ZL1Atlanta]

Originally Posted by JSH

It's LME's block, rated 1400. Kong told me recently that ported Eddie and Maggie are close in hp. I don't think my hpfp will support another 100 hp but Stanadyne's will. Adding more fuel is simpler than adding more air.

I would clarify that he meant Kong ported Eddie vs Kong ported Maggie, and at what blower RPM. This comparison has been made many times on the dyno and more importantly, at the track with verified race weights and trap speeds. That said, I’m sure you can get more out of your Eddie. Not sure about 100 WHP more, but more.

Also, LME’s 1400 HP is crank, not wheel, and they are talking turbos in that case, so parasitic loss isn’t factored in.

[KingLT1]

Originally Posted by JSH

It's LME's block, rated 1400. Kong told me recently that ported Eddie and Maggie are close in hp. I don't think my hpfp will support another 100 hp but Stanadyne's will. Adding more fuel is simpler than adding more air.

Your Ported Eddie is a 100whp short of what a Ported Maggie can do with no Meth. The IC bricks are smaller. Yes if you fog it with Meth injection to assist in cooling it will go further.

It's the same principal as guys that crack 950-1000whp on a X port stock blower. It takes a lot of meth to cool the boost down because the IC system is not even close to keeping up without it.

The Mag 2650 and Whipple 3.0 have larger cooling bricks. I believe even the 2.9 has larger bricks but less efficient rotor pack.

Just look at pics of the Mag 2650 and notice how much wider it is. That is because of the cooling bricks.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by ZL1Atlanta

Also, LME’s 1400 HP is crank, not wheel, and they are talking turbos in that case, so parasitic loss isn’t factored in.

yes, I understand that the rating is crank hp. I posted that on my LME390 thread. 1400 is 1200-1250 wheel and I'm now at 1116 wheel corrected, so I can push my build a bit further. At 8000 ft. I can add at least 250 more, but at 0 ft. I can only add say 100. I just don't see a maggie or eddie doing that. Nor can I see E85 doing that. I'm not sure about Meth but I'm sure N2O would do it.

My shop suggested removing the aero too.

[ZL1Atlanta]

Originally Posted by JSH

yes, I understand that the rating is crank hp. I posted that on my LME390 thread. 1400 is 1200-1250 wheel and I'm now at 1116 wheel corrected, so I can push my build a bit further. At 8000 ft. I can add at least 250 more, but at 0 ft. I can only add say 100. I just don't see a maggie or eddie doing that. Nor can I see E85 doing that. I'm not sure about Meth but I'm sure N2O would do it.

My shop suggested removing the aero too.

Yes, but spinning a supercharger isn’t free, it takes power. So it’s 1400 minus drivetrain loss AND parasitic loss, to get the safe estimate for WHP. The problem is, not knowing how much power the blower is eating up. The harder you spin it and the higher boost gets, the harder it is to turn.

It’s hard to say how much more you can make with your specific combo because there are many factors, but Maggie’s have been proven to make well over 1300 WHP. Not in 8k DA, but ~1500 DA, or close to the air your corrected numbers are based on.

[Joshinator99]

Originally Posted by ZL1Atlanta

Yes, but spinning a supercharger isn’t free, it takes power. So it’s 1400 minus drivetrain loss AND parasitic loss, to get the safe estimate for WHP. The problem is, not knowing how much power the blower is eating up. The harder you spin it and the higher boost gets, the harder it is to turn.

It’s hard to say how much more you can make with your specific combo because there are many factors, but Maggie’s have been proven to make well over 1300 WHP. Not in 8k DA, but ~1500 DA, or close to the air your corrected numbers are based on.

This. The further you get outside of the blower’s efficiency “sweet spot”, the worse the air temps get and the more wasted energy you get. Depending on where your blower is operating, you might be better off finding ways to get the engine airflow up at a lower boost number…. The blower might be much happier there. (Jason, that comment was for JSH not you lol…you should teach a class on this stuff haha).

[JSH]

Originally Posted by KingLT1

Yes if you fog it with Meth injection to assist in cooling it will go further.

This is what I'm looking for, specific suggestions like meth

Originally Posted by ZL1Atlanta

So it’s 1400 minus drivetrain loss AND parasitic loss, to get the safe estimate for WHP.

That's why I estimated max wheel hp at 1200-1250.

Originally Posted by Joshinator99

you might be better off finding ways to get the engine airflow up at a lower boost number

Finding ways? I can't put it on the dyno and test different mods. It's got more boost than the engine can flow now, so the "ways" are limited. Maybe better heads.

The obvious solution was to order a larger cid but I can't undo that

[CamOnlyJabroni]

Spray it with nitrous

[Evansa22]

How about different cam specs/valvetrain? You may have posted them already, but maybe that can help out in some way to be better suited for your particular application.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by CamOnlyJabroni

Spray it with nitrous

My shop proposed a $10-12k N2O system, which I and others here agree is too much. I asked him about a simple plate system but he doesn't like them.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by Evansa22

How about different cam specs/valvetrain? You may have posted them already, but maybe that can help out in some way to be better suited for your particular application.

I asked LME if they could have put more cam in it and he said no. He indicated it would jeopardize the block, but the specs are 235 / 248 .644" / .631" 1.8 / 1.8 118+4 38% FUEL LOBE

[ZL1Atlanta]

Originally Posted by JSH

That's why I estimated max wheel hp at 1200-1250.

A couple years ago I made a spreadsheet of all the stock A10 ZL1 dyno numbers I could find and averaged them out. The number was 15 I believe and the average drivetrain loss was 16% (assuming every engine actually made 650 HP). That isn’t exact science, but gives an idea. That said, 1400 x 84% = 1,176 RWHP available to you. Naturally parasitic loss has to be removed from the power the engine is experiencing, so you’d take some number away from the 1400 and then do your x 84% if you’re trying to back in what is safely left for you at the wheels. Maybe TooHighPSI will chime in as I’m sure he has a pretty good idea of what parasitic loss is from his days at Magnuson developing the blower. I know it is more than 50 HP at these levels.

None of these guidelines are exact with possible factory flaws in blocks, pistons, rods, how hard it is being ran, tuning, etc. But all of those uncertainties are why I didn’t want to sleeve a stock block when trying to max out the 2650. It gave me maybe an extra 2-300 HP and we had just dyno’d over 1300 RWHP when the stock cylinder wall cracked. That said, we ran my car at ~1,100 RWHP for over a year and 100+ passes with no issues using LME’s 1400 HP offering.

Edit: In this video he is talking about a test Kenne Bell did between one of their blowers and a 2650 on an engine/blower dyno stand. At 22 psi the 2650 took over 200 HP. Much higher than I thought!

https://youtu.be/AvJ1nLRYteE?t=485