[radz28]

I just added a Katech dual-drop-in bucket. I am still completely happy with it, after some self-inflicted troubles. But - I have a new issue that I'm having trouble wrapping my head around. I was hoping for advice.

To start:

• I began with a full tank of gas. Gauge read full and HPTuners' SCANNER agreed.
• As I drove, fuel gauge and SCANNER fuel level agreed
• SCANNER showed DESIRED and ACTUAL FUEL PRESSURE agreed 99% of the time. There was one instance where LOW-SIDE FUEL PRESSURE (LSFP) dropped, but I believe that was a tune issue, as I was playing with that table. As I continued driving, fuel level dropped, as expected - there were no weird spikes, or dips, or fluctuations.
• This weekend, I drove enough I got down to an indicated 30% fuel level, and the car died. It stalled first; I was able to restart; it died, again, after a few hundred feet; it would not start again
• I could hear the fuel pump prime every time I tried starting the car, as it usually does. So - it seems like it was running, as commanded. SCANNER could manually turn it on, too. I re-flashed a few older tunes where I had NO issues, but it would not fire back up and fuel pressure remained nearly zero.
• No DTCs or anything like that. I cleared anyways, but there was no change in behavior.
• I added 5-gallons of fuel. Fuel level increased to 50%, and the car immediately started, and ran. It started and ran the following day with no issue. Fuel level continued to indicate around 50%, and the car behaved as usual; no problems.
• Dropped the fuel tank. I drained around 8-10 gallons of fuel (I drained about 4-gallons initially, and later, I filled 1-5.5 gallon fuel jug, and about 0.5-1.0-gallons in another; total drained from this tank of ABOUT 9-10 gallons). My point is I measured how much I drained with known capacity jugs.
• Removed jet pump (from the driver's side saddle) and everything seemed completely fine. There was nothing note-worthy. Lines appeared to be connected, and the float was unencumbered.
• Pulled the primary pump (passenger's side - duh) and everything seemed fine, too. Float and lines didn't seem to interfere with each other (unlike my first attempt - all my fault). Everything, literally, seemed completely fine. No lines in the new Katech bucket seemed twisted or damaged or anything. Of course - I can't see in the tank, so there IS a chance of that... There were no indications of any kinks or twists in any of the lines that I could see, but I could be missing something.
• I'm running almost a completely stock tune file for the primary pump. In all of the past tunes, except for the single time I referenced above, the actual and desired pressures tracked each other. I'm controlling the aux' pump with my REFLEX, but I wasn't getting into hardly any boost, so there was no need to trigger that pump, nor did it come on much, at all. I'm still polishing that in the tune though.
• There's no trash or any debris in the tank, and nothing else about the tank that showed any obvious signs that would seem to cause this issue.
• There are a pair of DW400s in the bucket, and from what little I can see, they seem to be fine. No wires were burned or anything that I could see. Again - it was running fine after adding the 5-additional-gallons.

I'm a little stumped. I was wondering if I twisted one of the transfer lines to and from the jet pump. Nothing stood out when I lifted the primary pump a little, but it's impossible to see everything while it's connected to the lines in the tank, so there's a good chance I can't see an issue. When I pulled the primary pump out, there was nothing, at all, that stood out, in any way. There is NOTHING at all that seems strange, nor would cause this. I was thinking it could be a sender issue, but the amount of fuel I started this drive with, AND the total I had to add to restart the car added-up pretty close to what was indicated, so I feel a little good it's not either of those. The car wasn't near empty, so that seems to add up. The lines seemed connected fine, so I feel like the transfer function could be just fine. What I'm left with is a primary pump shitting out, and that upsets me a little considering I have less than a couple hundred miles on this brand new set-up. I know things can happen, but after getting good brand stuff, I'd think it would last a little longer. Or - I'm completely off-base...

Would anyone have anything else they might suggest? I just ordered a new pump, so hopefully it will be here in a couple days so I can put the car back together, and get my cars back inside the garage. I don't want to reinstall the tank before I feel confident this is it. This is the THIRD time I've removed the tank, so I might just ziptie it back in this time, for the next time, lol... Again - I can hear the pump prime when I put the car into ON (but not actually START it). It runs every time I hit the button, but until I added that 5-additional-gallons, it would NOT pump more than a couple pounds (literally less than 10-psi) of pressure. Again - I drained nearly 10-gallons out of the tank after my drive, so there was already about 5-gallons in the car, which matched the 30% indicated fuel level, so it FEELS like it has to be the primary pump going out, no?... The ECM was commanding around 50-psi this whole time, and the tune files for fuel pump control were OEM settings, so what else could it be?

Thanks for any input.

[Katech_Mike]

Did you you disassemble our module?

There is a small venturi line that comes off the primary pump and runs down into the bucket. If that line is damaged in any way the venturi wouldn't want to work properly and the bucket wouldn't fill at low fuel levels.

The line I'm referencing has a small T-fitting that connects to the jet pump on the other side. It could be possible to damage the venturi line if you were to put a lot of pressure on it. Say if you were to pull on it with that jet pump line still hooked up.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by Katech_Mike

Did you you disassemble our module?

There is a small venturi line that comes off the primary pump and runs down into the bucket. If that line is damaged in any way the venturi wouldn't want to work properly and the bucket wouldn't fill at low fuel levels.

The line I'm referencing has a small T-fitting that connects to the jet pump on the other side. It could be possible to damage the venturi line if you were to put a lot of pressure on it. Say if you were to pull on it with that jet pump line still hooked up.

I did disassemble it, but didn't really understand everything I was looking at. I assumed the smallest line was the pressure line to the other side, and the return was the middle-size line (the largest being the vent tube). I will look at that jet line. Can you tell me the sizes of both that jet (feed?) line and the other line that comes back (return?) from the other side? That way I know what sizes I might need to obtain to replace what might be damaged? I'll look at these when I get home though

[radz28]

Hey Mike. Could I just overnight those smaller hoses? The T-ones? All 3, including the one that drops into the bucket? All the clamps, too? I, of course, will cover all that. I can’t really find much but there is some abrasion from jambing into and out of the tank, so if I’m here, I might as well replace themz

[Megahurtz]

I'm dealing with a CTSv now that has extremely low pressure on hot starts with the Katech dual in tanks pumps. The tune is commanding 60 psi but its getting 2-5 psi and then after a few seconds it ramps up to normal and the car runs fine. I didn't install the pumps and the tune is good but I wonder if there is some sort of setting necessary or if the customer maybe has a similar issue due to installation error.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by Megahurtz

I'm dealing with a CTSv now that has extremely low pressure on hot starts with the Katech dual in tanks pumps. The tune is commanding 60 psi but its getting 2-5 psi and then after a few seconds it ramps up to normal and the car runs fine. I didn't install the pumps and the tune is good but I wonder if there is some sort of setting necessary or if the customer maybe has a similar issue due to installation error.

I wouldn't know Jason, but I can tell you in my experience, getting these pumps in the tank are like jambing 10-lbs of sh1t into a whatever. It is tough. And it's tougher to get anything aligned and as many times as I've had that thing in-and-out (this is the 3rd time I dropped the tank, and I be I've got that thing in the tank-and-out 5-times that). The tank as some sharp edges that can really scuff and abrade the corrugated lines. I'm replacing all of the jet/venturi/transfer lines and am considering replacing the pump, just because it could have been running for a few minutes without fuel, since it is apparent that side of the tank was run completely dry. I don't want to replace the pump, but I don't want to drop the tank again, even though I'm an expert now.

Katech stated (as I'm sure you've seen) these bucket can be run with the OEM tune. I've been, pretty much running that way, slowly transitioning from the way I had it for the DSX aux' controller. Even though it will run about 10-psi higher than commanded, it doesn't seem too big a deal. I'm still playing with the REFLEX controller and bringing the secondary pump in the bucket in, but it seem like everything is falling in line.

I wouldn't pretend to offer much advice to you for the tune. What I know is there's a lot of sh1t to move around to get than thing in the tank. And if you don't do this kind of work all the time, it's a bit tricky, and if you aren't careful, it isn't hard to damage some of these softer lines. Maybe see if the problems exist under certain conditions. For me, doing a lot of regular driving, and not turning hard, didn't slosh the fuel between the tanks much. So - that allowed the primary side to drain, completely, because it seems the aux' side wasn't transferring the fuel correctly, due to the jet pump not working right. I'm still waiting for parts to put it all back together, so I haven't finished this fiasco, but that's what it looks like. Again - adding fuel immediately corrected the problem, and I heard the primary pump kick on everytime I pressed the START button so it was pumping. Maybe, if they drive really easy for a while, and avoid sloshing the fuel around, if they end up starving the primary side out of fuel, they probably have a similar issue to mine.

I'd still do this bucket again - no regrets, and the compromise for better fueling for battling the installation is still worth it. I'm just saying it's tough.

[Katech_Mike]

Originally Posted by Megahurtz

I'm dealing with a CTSv now that has extremely low pressure on hot starts with the Katech dual in tanks pumps. The tune is commanding 60 psi but its getting 2-5 psi and then after a few seconds it ramps up to normal and the car runs fine. I didn't install the pumps and the tune is good but I wonder if there is some sort of setting necessary or if the customer maybe has a similar issue due to installation error.

The primary pump is factory controlled. So unless the pump is failing I'm not sure what else would cause the low pressure on a hot restart only. The pumps are DW400's which have proved to be very reliable.

[Megahurtz]

Originally Posted by Katech_Mike

The primary pump is factory controlled. So unless the pump is failing I'm not sure what else would cause the low pressure on a hot restart only. The pumps are DW400's which have proved to be very reliable.

Thanks for confirming. I doubt the pump is failing. It puts out the pressure requested everywhere else except hot start and then only for a few seconds. The customer ran their own fuel line so I'm going to ask if they eliminated the check valve. That could maybe explain it. Nothing else makes sense. The tune is good and the pumps are good. I was thinking something physical with fuel lines as the issue at this point.

[Megahurtz]

Originally Posted by radz28

I wouldn't know Jason, but I can tell you in my experience, getting these pumps in the tank are like jambing 10-lbs of sh1t into a whatever. It is tough. And it's tougher to get anything aligned and as many times as I've had that thing in-and-out (this is the 3rd time I dropped the tank, and I be I've got that thing in the tank-and-out 5-times that). The tank as some sharp edges that can really scuff and abrade the corrugated lines. I'm replacing all of the jet/venturi/transfer lines and am considering replacing the pump, just because it could have been running for a few minutes without fuel, since it is apparent that side of the tank was run completely dry. I don't want to replace the pump, but I don't want to drop the tank again, even though I'm an expert now.

Katech stated (as I'm sure you've seen) these bucket can be run with the OEM tune. I've been, pretty much running that way, slowly transitioning from the way I had it for the DSX aux' controller. Even though it will run about 10-psi higher than commanded, it doesn't seem too big a deal. I'm still playing with the REFLEX controller and bringing the secondary pump in the bucket in, but it seem like everything is falling in line.

I wouldn't pretend to offer much advice to you for the tune. What I know is there's a lot of sh1t to move around to get than thing in the tank. And if you don't do this kind of work all the time, it's a bit tricky, and if you aren't careful, it isn't hard to damage some of these softer lines. Maybe see if the problems exist under certain conditions. For me, doing a lot of regular driving, and not turning hard, didn't slosh the fuel between the tanks much. So - that allowed the primary side to drain, completely, because it seems the aux' side wasn't transferring the fuel correctly, due to the jet pump not working right. I'm still waiting for parts to put it all back together, so I haven't finished this fiasco, but that's what it looks like. Again - adding fuel immediately corrected the problem, and I heard the primary pump kick on everytime I pressed the START button so it was pumping. Maybe, if they drive really easy for a while, and avoid sloshing the fuel around, if they end up starving the primary side out of fuel, they probably have a similar issue to mine.

I'd still do this bucket again - no regrets, and the compromise for better fueling for battling the installation is still worth it. I'm just saying it's tough.

As I just mentioned to Mike, the customer just told me they ran their own low side fuel line. I suspect the check valve was removed and maybe the low side is empty when hot. Although that doesn't explain why its fine on cold starts unless it could be that the high side is trying to run a higher pressure is helping fill the low side line faster when cold so he doesn't notice. I asked for a cold start log to see if the issue is persistent when cold but maybe not noticeable.

[Megahurtz]

I wanted to follow up here incase this helps anyone in the future. There was no issue with the Katech parts themselves.

The issues my client was having:

#1) Very low fuel pressure on hot starts, causing stalling or stumbling.
- My customer replaced the low side feed line, unknowingly removing the factory check valve, and fuel was just draining back into the tank and emptying the low side line. They installed a check valve and it solved this issue.

#2) - Under WOT, low side fuel pressure commands 80psi but doesn't get much higher than 35psi. There may be an issue with the controller for the secondary pump that is causing it to not run and then pump 1 is just pushing fuel backwards through the second pump. I'm having the customer verify his wiring and secondary controller setup.

Essentially, the issues are not the fault of the fuel pumps themselves, but installation and/or wiring issues.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by Megahurtz

I wanted to follow up here incase this helps anyone in the future. There was no issue with the Katech parts themselves.

The issues my client was having:

#1) Very low fuel pressure on hot starts, causing stalling or stumbling.
- My customer replaced the low side feed line, unknowingly removing the factory check valve, and fuel was just draining back into the tank and emptying the low side line. They installed a check valve and it solved this issue.

#2) - Under WOT, low side fuel pressure commands 80psi but doesn't get much higher than 35psi. There may be an issue with the controller for the secondary pump that is causing it to not run and then pump 1 is just pushing fuel backwards through the second pump. I'm having the customer verify his wiring and secondary controller setup.

Essentially, the issues are not the fault of the fuel pumps themselves, but installation and/or wiring issues.

Thanks for following up.

This situation sounds familiar...

I ordered all the hoses that could contact the rim of the tank opening and am replacing the primary pump, just because I ran it dry for up to a few minutes - IF that.

Another thing: I've learned about the customer service of both Katech, AND Deatschwerks (DW). The Katech bucket comes with two of DW's pumps; one pump as a venturi-feed and the aux' is a standard 400. I've contacted BOTH companies and not one time have I had an attitude or even a tone like I did something wrong, or to just brush me off. DW - especially - spent a lot of time trying to help me figure out the hoses I need. BOTH were VERY helpful in sorting me out.

Even if it isn't a leak in the jet-system, I'll be eliminating the pump as a possibility by replacing in just in case, and I'll be replacing almost all of the hoses, so this should not be an issue in the future. DW also suggested some alcohol additive to help the whole fuel system last longer, due to the nature of running ethanol, and I didn't even ask, lol. I'm not done yet, as I'm still waiting for the rest of the hoses, but will follow-up, to conclude this little issue in case it's helpful for anyone else.

I still have no regrets with any of these products, and definitely recommend any of them, even right now, on the bases of customer service. That's more important than $$$, IMO.

[Megahurtz]

Soooo the installer never put the fuse in for the second pump......that was why we were having issue with WOT pressure. All is good now after the check valve and fuse. lol I'm just the tuner here.

[Ericdared]

Originally Posted by Megahurtz

Soooo the installer never put the fuse in for the second pump......that was why we were having issue with WOT pressure. All is good now after the check valve and fuse. lol I'm just the tuner here.

Lol

[Joshinator99]

Originally Posted by Megahurtz

Soooo the installer never put the fuse in for the second pump......that was why we were having issue with WOT pressure. All is good now after the check valve and fuse. lol I'm just the tuner here.

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