[CTRifecta]

The 5.0 coyote engine is a true gem, and the high-revving character of it is very unique for an American muscle car. Prior to driving a 6gen camaro, I always thought I would dislike the LT1 vs the S550 coyote, however after driving both, I am super happy with the LT1. While it doesn't rev out as high, the car is overall light enough, paired with a torque monster of a motor which makes the experience just downright amazing from any gear and any rpm. I haven't even gone past 4k RPMs yet (still within break-in miles), but the LT1 just oozes with character/sound and torque (esp w the NPP exhaust). The crisp 6mt also makes it a delight to enjoy, just have to get past the annoying 1-4 skip shift...

I will fully admit that Fords sales / marketing got me, as when I began looking into a fun V8 rwd + 6mt car, S550 mustang performance pack / Mach 1 reviews were absolutely everywhere. Online articles, multi-car comparisons, YT reviews, you name it, Ford did (and still does) a great job marketing their products. This, paired with the exact opposite from Chevy with the camaro, led me towards almost buying a S550 mach 1 a few years ago! The 6gen camaro is truly under-appreciated and had so little media coverage towards the end of it's production, super frustrating, but also probably an output of declining sales and a stagnant product.

It wasn't until I did more research on the Camaro, and understood how truly advanced the 6gen alpha chassis was vs. the mustang, that I started leaning more towards the camaro. Digging up super old reviews from 2018-2019 further validated how much of a true sports car the camaro is, vs. the mustang. The best way I would describe the two is, the mustang is a true muscle car, great motor, good ergonomics, visibility etc., but lacks true sports car chassis refinement (even though it's marketed as such). The camaro 6gen is actually a true sports car, disguised as a muscle car. One back to back drive between the two, and you'll understand.

[Gen6cyl]

The camaro 6gen is actually a true sports car, disguised as a muscle car. One back to back drive between the two, and you'll understand.[/QUOTE]

That is the way I see it too.

[DevilsReject97]

Let me see here...

It's easy to talk about the Camaro vs. Mustang sales battle, but always overlook the fact that the Firebird/Trans-Am stole sales (for basically the same car). To give you an idea....they sold about 300k Firebird/Trans-Ams from 67-69.... and that was like 50k less than the Camaro sold...

The Mustang has never had to compete within Ford for anything. The Ford GT that was brought back twice was so far out of the price point that the Mustang had nothing to worry about. Meanwhile, Chevy has had the Corvette, the Impala SS, the Monte Carlo, etc, and all of these cars either cost the Camaro sales or in the case of the Corvette, cost the Camaro production as a whole.

Let's talk about the whole "Camaro is smaller, less space, etc"...

The current Mustang and Camaro are literally within .5 to 1 inch in all major dimensions interior wise. They are also very similar in height and width exterior wise. The Mustang I believe is about 9 inches longer than the Camaro however. The only real difference is the trunk opening which we can all admit the Mustang wins hands down... (was arguably the dumbest thing about the Camaro).

As for the visibility issue... it's bogus as hell and people need to quit with the fanboy nonsense. The Challenger, the Camaro, and the Mustang all have the same issues with visibility. The only reason the Mustang "feels" easier to see out of is because of the beltline sitting a little lower on the Mustang....otherwise it's pretty negligible.

Lastly, the whole sales thing is completely ignoring the fact that Ford heavily discounts and spam sales the Mustang to rental car companies.... (which GM didn't).

The current Camaro outperformed every model Mustang it went up against except the GT500, which costs about on average 40k more than the ZL1 and still only just edges it out.... despite Ford having like 5 years to build a better car...

This isn't a bash the Mustang commentary... it's a good car for what people want....and plenty of people love em...

[TheEnthusiast]

Toxic Masculinity...probably what Bara thinks about us and our cars. Which is why she killed it.

Chevy needs new leadership asap.

[cdb95z28]

Originally Posted by DevilsReject97

Let me see here...

It's easy to talk about the Camaro vs. Mustang sales battle, but always overlook the fact that the Firebird/Trans-Am stole sales (for basically the same car). To give you an idea....they sold about 300k Firebird/Trans-Ams from 67-69.... and that was like 50k less than the Camaro sold...

The Mustang has never had to compete within Ford for anything. The Ford GT that was brought back twice was so far out of the price point that the Mustang had nothing to worry about. Meanwhile, Chevy has had the Corvette, the Impala SS, the Monte Carlo, etc, and all of these cars either cost the Camaro sales or in the case of the Corvette, cost the Camaro production as a whole.

Let's talk about the whole "Camaro is smaller, less space, etc"...

The current Mustang and Camaro are literally within .5 to 1 inch in all major dimensions interior wise. They are also very similar in height and width exterior wise. The Mustang I believe is about 9 inches longer than the Camaro however. The only real difference is the trunk opening which we can all admit the Mustang wins hands down... (was arguably the dumbest thing about the Camaro).

As for the visibility issue... it's bogus as hell and people need to quit with the fanboy nonsense. The Challenger, the Camaro, and the Mustang all have the same issues with visibility. The only reason the Mustang "feels" easier to see out of is because of the beltline sitting a little lower on the Mustang....otherwise it's pretty negligible.

Lastly, the whole sales thing is completely ignoring the fact that Ford heavily discounts and spam sales the Mustang to rental car companies.... (which GM didn't).

The current Camaro outperformed every model Mustang it went up against except the GT500, which costs about on average 40k more than the ZL1 and still only just edges it out.... despite Ford having like 5 years to build a better car...

This isn't a bash the Mustang commentary... it's a good car for what people want....and plenty of people love em...

In addition to the OP's original post, this is the most sensible post in the entire thread

[Bosse'sBoss]

Originally Posted by Evergreen6

Don't get me wrong, I love the Camaro with a small-block V8.

For better or worse, the Camaro has too much power for being "just" RWD. That's part of what makes it fun, but putting that power to the ground in a way that really sticks is also seriously fun.

An EV Camaro would need to be a dual-motor/AWD setup to satisfy anyone willing to give it a look. I assume some folks on here have driven (really driven) an EV and can see and feel the potential application to a muscle car. It won't be quite the same, but it will be different in exciting ways. There's more than plenty room for enthusiasts in an EV world.

Looks like Dodge will have the first muscle car EV on the market. We can test theirs and tell GM how to do it better. If there's still any guys around GM who worked on the 4th, 5th, 6th gen cars and have any say in an EV Camaro, I think we'll be pleased. They haven't let us down in the past.

Keep the faith?

I test drove during a weekend a dual motor Tesla, very fast car, but EVs are emotionless compared to an ICE sport car. I would never trade a V8 6MT for an EV.

[Bosse'sBoss]

This post brought me good memories, during '07 my only US Dream car was the Corvette but I needed a rear seat for my two kids to drive along, So I bought a 911 Carrera, I enjoyed tracking the car at my local PCA. At that time the beautiful '10 Camaro just showed up but I wasn't impressed by its performance, it was a heavy understeering car at the track with very bad handling. But I was really surprised when I read in MT that the '11 Mustang GT 5.0 with the Brembo package beat a BMW M3 (V8). I went to dealer tested the car and was really impressed with the strong punch of the V8 and its marvelous exhaust sound, immediately I traded my Porsche for the Mustang without any remorse. (Later on the Mustang Boss came out and it was even better). Afterwards I saw a comparison on a magazine of the 5th gen Camaro with the 1LE handling package beating the Boss. I was surprised! At that time I began to track my 5.0 , like I had done with my prior 911. I fully modified the suspension of my Mustang for improved handling and was able to keep up with a BMW M3 at the track. I was very satisfied with its performance. But again curious about the 5th gen 1LE, I tested one, and was very impressed because of its out of the box handling feeling, it was way better than my Mustang with its modified suspension. I then bought a an oustanding 5th gen red ZL1. Afterwards I made the mistake of replacing my ZL1 for a beautiful but very unreliable C7 Corvette Z51 AT, which overheated its rear gear on my first track event after a few laps. Very dissapointed of it, and again reading on MT on how a 6th gen Camaro SS beated a BMW M4, went and traded my Corvette for one.
Amazing Camaro with is Alpha chassis and lighter than my 5th gen Camaro was something else, the perfect handling muscle car with an amazing 6MT Tremec Transmission. The 6th gen Camaro is 9/10 of a C7 Corvette's performance. I still don't understand why GM let go of this precious jewel.

[Mark20242SS]

Just read through this post & I just traded my 25 Mustang GT premium for my 24 2SS and only been driving it for 4 days and the SS is far superior to the GT, I should have gotten a SS years ago. glad I did get one now though.
the SS is a real sports car, seating position, steering, shifter, handling, sound, everything. even when you close the door on the SS it sounds solid.
it is pretty much a vette with rear seats i think. I have the recaros also so they really hold you in well and you can adjust them a lot.
on the GT you can not get the seating position low enough, sit more on top of it. does everything driving wise worse than the SS, sound system was worse, too much treble, i had treble turned all the way down. the gt did have better visibility out the rear window but I am adjusting just fine backing up the SS.
Hopefully chevy will bring the camaro back again with the new small block and market it correctly to get sales up.

[DeuceCam]

Originally Posted by Mark20242SS

Just read through this post & I just traded my 25 Mustang GT premium for my 24 2SS and only been driving it for 4 days and the SS is far superior to the GT, I should have gotten a SS years ago. glad I did get one now though.
the SS is a real sports car, seating position, steering, shifter, handling, sound, everything. even when you close the door on the SS it sounds solid.
it is pretty much a vette with rear seats i think. I have the recaros also so they really hold you in well and you can adjust them a lot.
on the GT you can not get the seating position low enough, sit more on top of it. does everything driving wise worse than the SS, sound system was worse, too much treble, i had treble turned all the way down. the gt did have better visibility out the rear window but I am adjusting just fine backing up the SS.
Hopefully chevy will bring the camaro back again with the new small block and market it correctly to get sales up.

I test drove a few 6th gen mustangs. Great engine, but the interior felt and looked cheap, seating position was too high, and there wasn't much chassis feel through the hands, feet, and seat. It also felt heavier.

I did sit in a 7th gen performance pack GT with Recaros. At 6'1", it felt like the seat went low enough (lower than a GT350 with Recaros), but still not as low as the 6th gen Camaro seat, and I don't even have Recaros in my car.

[speedyink1]

I like my analogue tach/speedo gauge, and climate control buttons/knobs thank you very much.


I do not like the digital tachs, for some reason they've always been really bleh to me. I don't care how many styles it has, or how fancy the animations look when changing them. It somehow cheapens the experience for me, or maybe adds a disconnect between a real physical object (the engine), and what basically looks like a video game screen. Like, say you had a nice looking analogue clock. Now someone comes along and gives you a screen that has the same analogue clock displayed on it. How is that not a lesser version of the original, physical object?
The inherent nature of engine RPMs is that they 1: have a hard limit and 2: there are gears, so the information needs to climb more then once. Because of this, the speed at which this all changes means changing the display to numbers (like you can reasonably do for a speedometer) is harder to parse quickly. So we need to leave the graph system in place. At which point you can now choose A) a rotary dial or B) a bar style graph. If you prefer (A) like me, sorry, any digital replica is going to be just that, a replica of a real object. No amount of fancy animations will make it look better. If you don't care or prefer the bar graph style, I can see digital tachs not really being as much of a bother (I'm sure there's some sort of latency introduced with the tachs on a screen, but I'm not 100%)


Wow, now that I've over analyzed tachometers, I think the physical climate control point is a much simpler one. Physical buttons that can be felt out will always be safer then hunting on a capacitive surface that by nature requires your visual attention to change accurately. But that's just common sense.

[DeuceCam]

Yeah, the interior design of the 7th gen stang is not my taste, e.g., the textured trim that's made to look similar to carbon fiber, the ipad(s) stuck to the dash, no physical HVAC buttons, woefully cheap auxiliary button panel, etc. The standard seats in all late model stangs suck, in many ways. All considered, I still like 'em, but prefer the 6th gen model. At least the car is still in production.

Side note: I'm not fan of how the coyote sounds at idle or at commuter-level acceleration, I much prefer the LT1's underlying tone. However, when comparing how they sound at high rpm/wot, the coyote wins IMO, it RIPS.

[arpad_m]

I prefer the sound of the LT1/LT4 over the Coyote overall, our engines feel like they have more "substance" across the board.

The one engine sound that I slightly prefer over ours is that of the Voodoo in the GT350, that one has a crazy good brawny tinge to it because of its spooky UDUD crankshaft and twisty headers. At least it doesn't sound like a wannabe Ferrari (khm khm, C8) despite its flat plane crank.

[DeuceCam]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

the Voodoo in the GT350, that one has a crazy good brawny tinge to it because of its spooky UDUD crankshaft and twisty headers

Agreed. Even with the flat plane crank, it's overall tone still sounds closer to what *I* consider a classic 'Merican V8 sound, but with the pitch/harmonics that come with 8k+ rpm (glorious!). That said, it ain't no Nascar engine.

I personally love the C8 z06 engine. I want a z06. IMO there's nothing wannabe about volumetric efficiency. I hope Chevy puts the LT6 in more models.

[nothing_but_troub1le]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

I prefer the sound of the LT1/LT4 over the Coyote overall, our engines feel like they have more "substance" across the board.

The one engine sound that I slightly prefer over ours is that of the Voodoo in the GT350, that one has a crazy good brawny tinge to it because of its spooky UDUD crankshaft and twisty headers. At least it doesn't sound like a wannabe Ferrari (khm khm, C8) despite its flat plane crank.

I totally agree, the mustangs are so distinct, especially if its modified. You can pick out a mustang with corsa and a xpipe a mile away. Voodoo has the special sauce that makes it the perfect unique sound.