[Camfab]

Originally Posted by radz28

Cars, dynos, how cars are strapped down, SAE or not, Dynojet or Mustang-types - the variances go on and on. What I would look for are comparisons in improvements, on the same dyno, under similar conditions, etc. Do a baseline and post-install on the same dyno, same strapping, same conditions (or use SAE), etc. These cars dyno as low as 520s and as much as 590, depending on all those, and more factors.

You’re exactly right, and that’s why I’m questioning what’s being stated. Years ago I used to frequent AA Corvettes. The guy who owns it used to be a close friend of mine. Once a year he’d do an open house day and I’d go help out on the Dyno, strapping the cars down, etc. One thing I absolutely remember was that all the C5’s were within just a few hp when stock. So when I hear these radical swings and the statement that the canned tune is designed for the significant variances between cars, I have to question that. One lt-4 to the next should have virtually no variation between cars.

The fact that this tune meets CARB specs tells me that it cannot be as off as what I’m reading here. Yes it may not be tuned for 93, however a tune that’s HORRIBLE would likely cause premature emissions failure and that’s exactly what CARB is designed to prevent.
I’m just looking for an honest evaluation of the kit, and yes perhaps in the boxed form this kit is not ideal and thus not worth the investment.
Thanks in advance for any real practical data.

[RobZL1]

Very dyno dependent. I would expect 640-670 with just the Maggie bolt-on on a dynojet, no other mods

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by Camfab

So are you saying, it essentially is worse than stock? What I don’t understand is variance between cars. I would understand variance when a car is not 100% stock. The more I read the numbers, it makes no sense to me, in your example your saying on your 100% stock car the car is at 700 with a mild tune and no other mods, yet it was below 600 on the canned tune. I see other people’s signature making 40-50hp more with the addition of a cam and headers etc. something is not adding up.

You're mixing up crank horsepower and wheel horsepower. Stock ZL1s that have 650 crank hp dyno between 540 and 570 rwhp (with a few outliers), so BMLMZ's 600 rwhp he quoted above is a 5-10% improvement over stock, which is very weak but definitely not worse than stock.

(Obviously there is great variance among dyno setups, altitudes, weather etc., these horsepower numbers are typical averages and ranges.)

[sactownbwoy]

Unless you get state ref'd the EO number is the important part. Have that and then run whatever tune you want. If you have to pop the hood, they will see or you can show the EO sticker, showing that the aftermarket supercharger is CARB legal.

[Camfab]

Originally Posted by sactownbwoy

Unless you get state ref'd the EO number is the important part. Have that and then run whatever tune you want. If you have to pop the hood, they will see or you can show the EO sticker, showing that the aftermarket supercharger is CARB legal.

You can run whatever tune you want until it’s smog time, and then it’ll show up (according to some other threads here), even if you go back to a canned tune. I don’t know if you can just get another computer and simply do a swap or if there are other indicators that show up when your car is plugged in for your smog.

[GAOLDGUY]

Originally Posted by Camfab

You can run whatever tune you want until it’s smog time, and then it’ll show up (according to some other threads here), even if you go back to a canned tune. I don’t know if you can just get another computer and simply do a swap or if there are other indicators that show up when your car is plugged in for your smog.

I'm interested in this as well. I think the results may be influenced by (1) are they just reading the OBDII port for the emissions test? If this is the case, I believe that sometimes the data being received is not necessarily accurate (ie. the Volkswagon emissions debacle). Another possibility is (2) the "emissions" copy of the canned tune is configured to guarantee that the data being written to the OBD II port is correct. That is what we would hope would be the case. There is also the tailpipe sniffer, case number (3). I don't know if these are still used but I have heard of configurations that would pass if they do the OBDII test but not pass if they do the sniffer. I'm not saying that any vendors are still doing this but this would explain why a car can have a "choppy cam" but pass an OBDII test even though it has a great deal of overlap which I assume would blow up a sniffer test.

[Camfab]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

You're mixing up crank horsepower and wheel horsepower. Stock ZL1s that have 650 crank hp dyno between 540 and 570 rwhp (with a few outliers), so BMLMZ's 600 rwhp he quoted above is a 5-10% improvement over stock, which is very weak but definitely not worse than stock.

(Obviously there is great variance among dyno setups, altitudes, weather etc., these horsepower numbers are typical averages and ranges.)

Yeah, actually I’m not mixing up crank and wheel.
Magnussons own website has the chart showing what appears to be maybe a 60whp gain and a claimed 76hp at the crank. So the 600whp seems dead on. The question remains, Is the cars drivability better or worse, another words is it losing power below 3500rpm due to a larger blower out of its efficiency range. Yeah I’m going to need more real world information.

[BMLMZ]

Originally Posted by Camfab

Yeah, actually I’m not mixing up crank and wheel.
Magnussons own website has the chart showing what appears to be maybe a 60whp gain and a claimed 76hp at the crank. So the 600whp seems dead on. The question remains, Is the cars drivability better or worse, another words is it losing power below 3500rpm due to a larger blower out of its efficiency range. Yeah I’m going to need more real world information.

Drivability was lazy. That big blower with no timing and running rich as shit from Magnusson's garbage tuner made it feel slower than stock from off the line and just running around driving.

When I went back to the dyno after having the blower on for a bit with the magnusson tune, I picked up almost 100 rwhp with Teds tune from scratch. Nothing else changed. At that point the car felt like it should for the $12k in mods it just had.

Im saying unless you are going to take this to the level it needs to be at, you are wasting a tremendous amount of cash for little to no gain. It might be more effecient, but you are not spinning it fast enough to realize any of those gains. Its a catch 22. You can do a flex fuel sensor and a tune and make the same gains with nothing more. Why do a blower that was made to make 1k HP and more just to run it at near stock boost levels and move your effeciency range well outside of what you will use it for??

I was highly disappointed with mine until Ted tuned it. Then after that I promptly ran out of low side and needed to add a JMS. Then I added a FF sensor and TCM and completely ran out of fuel around 740 to the tire. That was about E40 and I had moved away from Ted's tune to another tuner.

If you need that carb cert, then skip this blower if you have to run next to no other supporting mods and their tune. Especially for 91. You are seriously spending money for nothing.

And the maggie on these cars at these low boost levels act almost like centri blowers too. Mine would start at around 8psi and build to around 13-14. And until you got near the end of the rev range, it was still chugging to get to that peak boost. Nothing like you'd imagine a PD blower to do.

I never did, but you can remove the NOS pill in the vacuum line to the bypass and that will speed up the bypass to close, but it turns your throttle pedal into an on/off switch. Its hard to tune around to make the car smooth to drive. Imagine just about every time you touch the gas, its going to snap shut and shove max boost into the motor even at part throttle situations when you dont want that abrupt throttle response. So like I said all in all, this is not something you should do unless you already did the fuel system, CAM and headers and are ready to make 900+hp without breaking a sweat.

[Camfab]

Originally Posted by BMLMZ

Drivability was lazy. That big blower with no timing and running rich as shit from Magnusson's garbage tuner made it feel slower than stock from off the line and just running around driving.

When I went back to the dyno after having the blower on for a bit with the magnusson tune, I picked up almost 100 rwhp with Teds tune from scratch. Nothing else changed. At that point the car felt like it should for the $12k in mods it just had.

Im saying unless you are going to take this to the level it needs to be at, you are wasting a tremendous amount of cash for little to no gain. It might be more effecient, but you are not spinning it fast enough to realize any of those gains. Its a catch 22. You can do a flex fuel sensor and a tune and make the same gains with nothing more. Why do a blower that was made to make 1k HP and more just to run it at near stock boost levels and move your effeciency range well outside of what you will use it for??

I was highly disappointed with mine until Ted tuned it. Then after that I promptly ran out of low side and needed to add a JMS. Then I added a FF sensor and TCM and completely ran out of fuel around 740 to the tire. That was about E40 and I had moved away from Ted's tune to another tuner.

If you need that carb cert, then skip this blower if you have to run next to no other supporting mods and their tune. Especially for 91. You are seriously spending money for nothing.

And the maggie on these cars at these low boost levels act almost like centri blowers too. Mine would start at around 8psi and build to around 13-14. And until you got near the end of the rev range, it was still chugging to get to that peak boost. Nothing like you'd imagine a PD blower to do.

I never did, but you can remove the NOS pill in the vacuum line to the bypass and that will speed up the bypass to close, but it turns your throttle pedal into an on/off switch. Its hard to tune around to make the car smooth to drive. Imagine just about every time you touch the gas, its going to snap shut and shove max boost into the motor even at part throttle situations when you dont want that abrupt throttle response. So like I said all in all, this is not something you should do unless you already did the fuel system, CAM and headers and are ready to make 900+hp without breaking a sweat.

Thank you, this is exactly what I wanted to hear, well actually not really, but yes.

[radz28]

There are a lot of parts of the CARB-Maggie tune that do not change, and from what I can tell, a lot of it is emissions, and the other part is drivetrain protection. Everyone expects the emissions-part, but there's a drivetrain part I'm not sure many people consider.

Unfortunately - to protect the drivetrain, and offer the warranty Magnuson does (not including the guarantee the emissions system doesn't degrade from the blower), there are compromises, and sometimes those yield a less-than-optimal result. This bigger blower consumes more power than the 1.7 (I think GM said the ZR1 consumed about 125, so I imagine this might be in the same neighborhood), so that's working against you from the start. Then - you have TM in the ECM and TCM, and there's no work in the TCM from Magnuson, so you could easily hit a TQ ceiling there. There are certain parts of fueling that remain to protect the cats', and one of the strategies there is to run rich. Then - you have to keep timing low enough that it won't live off the knock sensors on 91, AND - so you're not running the cats' too hot and destroying them. Less timing is less power (until a certain point, obviously). It's running through the OEM air cleaner, which has no modifications, and TB, which are both restrictions. It's more than that, and a lot, on top of that.

I'm not suggesting it's optimal, nor that the CARB-legal kit might be worth the money, performance-wise. You could send the 1.7 to Kong/Jokerz and make a lot more power that way while saving money, but strictly speaking - that's not legal. If a ref' started snooping around, and looked through the throttle body, and see the port job, technically - he could fail the car. SHEET - VMP goes out of it's way to get CARB numbers for intercooler upgrades (on Predator GT500s, if I recall - I know it's one of the GT500 models), so if you want to be the absolute safest, in terms of CARB - there's no other way than to go with any of the exempted kits out there (Whipple/Edelbrock), and - as far as I can see - they all end up near the same power. Although - I haven't seen a 3.2 Gen V Whipple yet. And - you have to use the tune from the kit.

Bottom line - no one can argue this is the best way to make power/$$$. BUT - if you live in CA - and are trying to go by the book - this kind of kit, as described in the EO, is the ONLY way to go. It's not reasonable to compare a custom tune to the canned-CARB-tune. Those are not the same conversation, as outlined in this thread.

[clg82]

Originally Posted by radz28

There are a lot of parts of the CARB-Maggie tune that do not change, and from what I can tell, a lot of it is emissions, and the other part is drivetrain protection. Everyone expects the emissions-part, but there's a drivetrain part I'm not sure many people consider.

Unfortunately - to protect the drivetrain, and offer the warranty Magnuson does (not including the guarantee the emissions system doesn't degrade from the blower), there are compromises, and sometimes those yield a less-than-optimal result. This bigger blower consumes more power than the 1.7 (I think GM said the ZR1 consumed about 125, so I imagine this might be in the same neighborhood), so that's working against you from the start. Then - you have TM in the ECM and TCM, and there's no work in the TCM from Magnuson, so you could easily hit a TQ ceiling there. There are certain parts of fueling that remain to protect the cats', and one of the strategies there is to run rich. Then - you have to keep timing low enough that it won't live off the knock sensors on 91, AND - so you're not running the cats' too hot and destroying them. Less timing is less power (until a certain point, obviously). It's running through the OEM air cleaner, which has no modifications, and TB, which are both restrictions. It's more than that, and a lot, on top of that.

I'm not suggesting it's optimal, nor that the CARB-legal kit might be worth the money, performance-wise. You could send the 1.7 to Kong/Jokerz and make a lot more power that way while saving money, but strictly speaking - that's not legal. If a ref' started snooping around, and looked through the throttle body, and see the port job, technically - he could fail the car. SHEET - VMP goes out of it's way to get CARB numbers for intercooler upgrades (on Predator GT500s, if I recall - I know it's one of the GT500 models), so if you want to be the absolute safest, in terms of CARB - there's no other way than to go with any of the exempted kits out there (Whipple/Edelbrock), and - as far as I can see - they all end up near the same power. Although - I haven't seen a 3.2 Gen V Whipple yet. And - you have to use the tune from the kit.

Bottom line - no one can argue this is the best way to make power/$$$. BUT - if you live in CA - and are trying to go by the book - this kind of kit, as described in the EO, is the ONLY way to go. It's not reasonable to compare a custom tune to the canned-CARB-tune. Those are not the same conversation, as outlined in this thread.

^^^This.....I have the modifications that I have in my signature....I went with the 2650 and CARB legal tune because of SMOG issues. Just my .02 but IF you plan on living the rest of your life in California, and are worried about smog than I would forego the Magnuson and keep the car stock, you won't use the majority of the stock power let alone a Magnuson sitting on the 405 anyways....... as some have stated the 12K price tag is indeed a lot for what you are getting. I use a tool that allows me to switch between the CARB legal tune a base 91 tune and a base 91 tune with fuel additive and the difference between the 3 tunes is night and day....IF you don't plan on living here for the rest of your life and only plan to be here a couple of years the 2650 is an incredible starting point for a build that can be beneficial down the road. I will report back with what my dyno numbers were (if anyone cares) between the 3 tunes I mentioned above......

[BMLMZ]

Originally Posted by radz28

There are a lot of parts of the CARB-Maggie tune that do not change, and from what I can tell, a lot of it is emissions, and the other part is drivetrain protection. Everyone expects the emissions-part, but there's a drivetrain part I'm not sure many people consider.

Unfortunately - to protect the drivetrain, and offer the warranty Magnuson does (not including the guarantee the emissions system doesn't degrade from the blower), there are compromises, and sometimes those yield a less-than-optimal result. This bigger blower consumes more power than the 1.7 (I think GM said the ZR1 consumed about 125, so I imagine this might be in the same neighborhood), so that's working against you from the start. Then - you have TM in the ECM and TCM, and there's no work in the TCM from Magnuson, so you could easily hit a TQ ceiling there. There are certain parts of fueling that remain to protect the cats', and one of the strategies there is to run rich. Then - you have to keep timing low enough that it won't live off the knock sensors on 91, AND - so you're not running the cats' too hot and destroying them. Less timing is less power (until a certain point, obviously). It's running through the OEM air cleaner, which has no modifications, and TB, which are both restrictions. It's more than that, and a lot, on top of that.

I'm not suggesting it's optimal, nor that the CARB-legal kit might be worth the money, performance-wise. You could send the 1.7 to Kong/Jokerz and make a lot more power that way while saving money, but strictly speaking - that's not legal. If a ref' started snooping around, and looked through the throttle body, and see the port job, technically - he could fail the car. SHEET - VMP goes out of it's way to get CARB numbers for intercooler upgrades (on Predator GT500s, if I recall - I know it's one of the GT500 models), so if you want to be the absolute safest, in terms of CARB - there's no other way than to go with any of the exempted kits out there (Whipple/Edelbrock), and - as far as I can see - they all end up near the same power. Although - I haven't seen a 3.2 Gen V Whipple yet. And - you have to use the tune from the kit.

Bottom line - no one can argue this is the best way to make power/$$$. BUT - if you live in CA - and are trying to go by the book - this kind of kit, as described in the EO, is the ONLY way to go. It's not reasonable to compare a custom tune to the canned-CARB-tune. Those are not the same conversation, as outlined in this thread.

I forgot about the porting too for the stock blower. By adding an FF sensor, E50, Kong port and maybe a lower pulley if you want to get frisky, you can easily make more power than the maggie on a stock car with maggie tune. There are plenty of mods that will hide well and not be able to be found in a ref inspection. They really want to see cold air intakes, aftermarket pullies that dont look stock and also noise level out of the exhaust. If you grab yourself a drop in K&N airfilter and do the OEM FF sensor, the port, a lower crank pulley and a real tune, you will be making probably 700 to the tire easy with an E blend. Keep the stock airfilter and put it back in the box if you have to go in for inspection. Obv keep the stock exhaust intact as well. But keep in mind you are about out of options at that point.

You'll need a TCM unlock and tune if you want to get above that low to mid 700 threshold. And then it just get way more indepth from there. I've said it before and will say it now, these are the most expensive cars in this class to mod. For the guy who wants to keep one stock and just cruise and enjoy a yearly drag event or just car shows, its a fantastic car. Or to go to the roadcourse and enjoy the GM engineering at its finest iteration for the pony style car. This is it.

If you want to roll race the homies on the highway, or be a force at weekly test and tune nights at the drag strip, get a hellcat or coyote with a blower. These are the worst cars to mod past 700hp. The worst. Hellcats make 800 to the tire with a lower, injectors and E. Thats it. And much more with real mods. I have a 22GT now with a Gen V whipple 3.0 and it made 740 on the stage one kit on e20 with injectors and headers only. Im less into this car than I was in the ZL1 stock purchase. Forget the maggie.

[RobZL1]

I'd be interested to see the dyno difference between the tunes.

[clg82]

Originally Posted by RobZL1

I'd be interested to see the dyno difference between the tunes.

I'll post up when I get home this afternoon.