[Z06ZLE]

Originally Posted by NG329

Absolutely possible with a weight reduction, stripping down the car. Absolutely possible brother. The Viper is about 500lbs lighter than the ZL1-1LE but the Camaro is waaaay easier to drive. Just 200-300lbs would be all that is needed to get the job done.

Pretty sure the argument here is about an OEM model you can buy off the showroom floor, and not some gutted and modified-to the-nines track day special. Theoretically, a Corolla could be made to lap the Ring in under 7 mins if there were no limits as to what you could do to it.

[Z06ZLE]

Originally Posted by Z OH 6

Does the service tech get paid to test drive cars at their limits? If so, then yes, he could fall into that category.

Your congressman isn't an accountant unless he is applying his profession and expertise directly to the budget process. However, if he's actually crunching numbers and doing ya know, accountant work, then yes you could argue he's a professional in that field.

Does the school nurse have training in surgery or perform any type of surgery in any way? If not, the answer is no.

Don't need Bugs Bunny to answer these questions although I do feel like a Looney Toon created the questions.

And last of all, you continue to dodge my question about whether an "amateur" could perform a task as well as a "professional".

Very well played.

[Z OH 6]

Originally Posted by NG329

Absolutely possible with a weight reduction, stripping down the car. Absolutely possible brother. The Viper is about 500lbs lighter than the ZL1-1LE but the Camaro is waaaay easier to drive. Just 200-300lbs would be all that is needed to get the job done.

We were talking about stock vehicles or at least I was. The sky's the limit when you start modifying vehicles.

[Z OH 6]

Originally Posted by Z06ZLE

Pretty sure the argument here is about an OEM model you can buy off the showroom floor, and not some gutted and modified-to the-nines track day special. Theoretically, a Corolla could be made to lap the Ring in under 7 mins if there were no limits as to what you could do to it.

100%

[Z OH 6]

Originally Posted by george

The fact is Bill Wise does not live in Germany like many Euro car engineers/drivers who regularly are at the ring. The more familiar you are with the track, the better the time. Companies like ΒMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Audi live that track. GM does not. Bill wise had several runs but I would bet the euro companies have ring drivers that have more familiarity and thus more experience driving it. Give some Euro pro driver the ZL1 who drives that ring for those Euro companies for a couple of months and I bet whatever time is achieved will be close to the time GM ran, if not better. I’ll bet better.

Shoulda, coulda, woulda...we can all speculate about how this car is capable of running in the 6's with a dozen different variables. Or for that matter, we could also speculate that every other car on the Nurburgring list could also run much quicker with a dozen different variables too. Sure is fun to imagine...but all we have to compare is real world data.

[Z OH 6]

Originally Posted by SnakeEyeSS

Probably referring to the mythical 6th gen Z28

That's a possibility if the specs are considerably better than the ZL1 1LE in current form. My point was that a ZL1 1LE in stock form isn't capable at all of running a sub 7 second ring time. Once again, I think people need to look at the list of cars on the list that are in that category now, from a physics standpoint, it's just not possible.

I own a 2022 McLaren 720s along with my modified 800hp 2021 ZL1. The McLaren 720s weighs 3200lbs and makes 710hp, the official Ring time for that car in stock trim is 7:08. I can absolutely say that car is MUCH quicker than the ZL1 in every way, and it should be, it weighs 700lbs less and makes 60hp more from the factory, along with a superior chassis, lower center of gravity, active aero, mid engine layout, SSG transmission, etc...so those saying that a stock ZL1 1LE can run a sub 7 second Ring time are out of their damn minds because it's not possible from a physics standpoint. At the ring every tenth is A LOT, so when people speculate a car can run several tenths faster with a few variable changes, that's actually saying a lot more than they realize. There's a reason why so many supercars all run within 10-15 seconds within each other at the Ring.

[george]

A VW Porsche runs it at 6:47, faster than a McLaren 720s, but that’s not what is being challenged. That’s not the same as a challenge to the 7:16 time of the ZL1. I’m saying that car is capable of that time, taken out as it was built from the factory. I don’t think the ZL1 at its price point will be a McLaren or a Mercedes or a VW Porsche. It’s an American muscle car that cost 60K and competes well on the ring, capable of a 7:16, and perhaps a bit better under the right circumstances and conditions. I disagree that the car is not capable of a 7:16 as it ran with Bill Wise. I’m confused as to why it wasn’t challenged at the time it ran the ring and now, 6 years later we have this. The only way to solve it is to repeat the run. But that time stands unless it is officially challenged by some authority.

[Z OH 6]

Originally Posted by george

A VW Porsche runs it at 6:47, faster than a McLaren 720s, but that’s not what is being challenged. That’s not the same as a challenge to the 7:16 time of the ZL1. I’m saying that car is capable of that time, taken out as it was built from the factory. I don’t think the ZL1 at its price point will be a McLaren or a Mercedes or a VW Porsche. It’s an American muscle car that cost 60K and competes well on the ring, capable of a 7:16, and perhaps a bit better under the right circumstances and conditions. I disagree that the car is not capable of a 7:16 as it ran with Bill Wise. I’m confused as to why it wasn’t challenged at the time it ran the ring and now, 6 years later we have this. The only way to solve it is to repeat the run. But that time stands unless it is officially challenged by some authority.

I'm not sure if you're debating with me or someone else here. The ZL1 1LE costs 80K with the 1LE package and its no longer a muscle car, its a sports car but I've never questioned the value of this car. I've been telling people for years the ZL1 is the best bang for the buck under 100K. I also never debated the 7:16 time that was run with Bill Wise. It sounds legit to me and Bill is perfectly capable of driving that car at the limit. My debate is with those that think this car is many tenths quicker or even a sub 7 second car at the Ring. That run won't be repeated most likely unless someone privately funds it. Its very expensive for manufacturers to test at the Ring so most choose not to. It is however a valuable tool for tweaking suspension and handling characteristics which is why the ZL1 1LE was there to begin with. Now that the car is about to be out of production, there's no need to run it again, at least from GM's standpoint.

[HemiDave]

Originally Posted by Z06ZLE

Pretty sure the argument here is about an OEM model you can buy off the showroom floor, and not some gutted and modified-to the-nines track day special. Theoretically, a Corolla could be made to lap the Ring in under 7 mins if there were no limits as to what you could do to it.

Wrong.

This was about Al O stating they were working towards breaking the Viper ACR road course records with a ZLE and getting a Camaro sub 7 at the Ring.

That would be an OEM car.

[HemiDave]

Originally Posted by Z06ZLE

Very well played.

Nope…..

[HemiDave]

Originally Posted by Z OH 6

We were talking about stock vehicles or at least I was. The sky's the limit when you start modifying vehicles.

Al O was talking about a stock Camaro and you said Al was “ Out of his mind.”

So you think you know better than the Chief Engineer of Camaro, and you think GM Chassis Engineer, Bill Wise, is a pro racer.

Interesting...

[HemiDave]

Originally Posted by Z OH 6

Sure is fun to imagine...but all we have to compare is real world data.

Since you imagine Bill Wise is a pro racer then there’s no limits here.
You certainly aren’t limiting yourself to “…real world data.”

Carry on….

[NG329]

Originally Posted by Z OH 6

We were talking about stock vehicles or at least I was. The sky's the limit when you start modifying vehicles.

Ah, I see. I guess I was looking at it from a "Total Platform" perspective. My guess is that if GM substituted Aluminum, CF, or Titanium in select places where they have steel, the car would have been priced well into the six figures. They likely sacrificed a few seconds to keep the cost down.

Case in point, if you just spend $3,500 for a set of carbon fiber doors, you would shed 100lbs (There are other ways to get there I'm just using the doors as an example). In theory, if that nets you a tenth every time you accelerate out of a turn, over the 154 turns at the Nurburgring you are looking at 15.4 seconds quicker lap in theory. Factor in a modest +- delta of 5 seconds and you can reasonably expect a 7:05 lap. Add in the stickier Michelin Cup 2R (These were not deployed with the car for GM political reasons) and there's your 3-5 seconds over the course of the run.

At the end of the day, and to your point, GM didn't get a 7min or sub 7min lap done. However, my point is that if you read in between the lines, the potential is definitely there without going too crazy. On the flip-side, not many cars under $100k can have the same success....... being able to run world class times with just a small budget. For example, the $50k Toyota Supra is worlds apart from the $250k GR Supra. You have to throw at least $100k+ at most cars to get them to compete at a high level. Meanwhile, a stock ZLE in the right hands with some tweaks can lap toe to toe with some SCCA champions. I mean, I just find that really impressive.

[NG329]

Forgot to mention....

Whether you view him as a pro or not, Bill Wise absolutely had that car on the limit for the entire 7 minutes and the first 2 min on cold tires. I just don't know how much more you could have asked of the car, regardless of who's driving.

Respect that man's Gangsta!