[N Camarolina]

Originally Posted by GunMetalGrey

I think I said I would post this, so here it is



There is a very quick throttle to brake transition, more than I would like, but again, I want more margin for "error" than this when I'm driving hard, sick and tired of it not able to concentrate on fast laps when I'm worried about my brake stopping me from crashing

I've been doing HPDEs now for 3 years, computer games/sims for decades. I realize lap times are a big deal to you (they are to me too!), but I feel like I need ask you a question .......

Assuming you're not on the track to make a career out of it, why is purposely slowing the process between lifting of the accelerator and applying the brake such a big deal to you?

It's only going to cost you a fraction of a second each time, and it's repeatable so you know how much time it's costing in a lap. Why not just factor that out of your lap times and instead focus on improving your skills (optimally balancing the car at each corner segment to maximize your speed through the corners) to improve your time?

[cdb95z28]

Originally Posted by GunMetalGrey

That’s true, but I thought I read that other people have this problem even with stock, OEM Pads?

Plus, I just honestly don’t think I can go back, I never liked those OEM parts for the track, their performance certainly plummets when they get hot, I don’t even like those pads for the street anymore to be honest.

Most guys running OE Ferodos are not having ice mode issues. Only a few, for whatever reason, and that seems to bring alot of attention. Honestly, go for DS2500s or DS1.11s. And slow your throttle to brake transition, it does seem super quick.

Driver induced ice mode, whether it's technique, tire or pad choice, is solvable.
Track surface induced, is a little bit more difficult to solve except to be more gentle on the pedal.


Something to also note, cold fade. A high temp pad needs heat to work properly to get in the adherent friction zone of operation. If the pad is asked to work hard when temps are still low, while the pad is in abrasive friction mode, then sometimes the pedal feel is similar to ice mode. Hard pedal with limited decel rate.

This hard pedal feel/slow decel can also appear by way of another scenario: inadequate transfer layer on the rotors (the brakes were not bedded in).


In your experiences of ice mode, are the brakes up to temp or are they still cold?

[GunMetalGrey]

Originally Posted by cdb95z28

Most guys running OE Ferodos are not having ice mode issues. Only a few, for whatever reason, and that seems to bring alot of attention. Honestly, go for DS2500s or DS1.11s. And slow your throttle to brake transition, it does seem super quick.

Driver induced ice mode, whether it's technique, tire or pad choice, is solvable.
Track surface induced, is a little bit more difficult to solve except to be more gentle on the pedal.


Something to also note, cold fade. A high temp pad needs heat to work properly to get in the adherent friction zone of operation. If the pad is asked to work hard when temps are still low, while the pad is in abrasive friction mode, then sometimes the pedal feel is similar to ice mode. Hard pedal with limited decel rate.

This hard pedal feel/slow decel can also appear by way of another scenario: inadequate transfer layer on the rotors (the brakes were not bedded in).


In your experiences of ice mode, are the brakes up to temp or are they still cold?

Yeah, my understanding is that the harder the car is pushed the more this comes up, and I am pushing my car hard.

The brake pads are definitely bedded, no doubt about that.

It happens cold and hot, beginning, middle or end of a session.

Bottom line is I’m not going to be able to do a perfectly ideal throttle to brake transfer every time, especially as I push the car harder for better lap times.

I do have a ABS brake module from a ZL1 1 LE on its way, so I should know within a few weeks weather this will work and make the difference I’m looking for, I'll let everyone know if the car accepts it and if it works at the track as hoped

[GunMetalGrey]

Originally Posted by N Camarolina

I've been doing HPDEs now for 3 years, computer games/sims for decades. I realize lap times are a big deal to you (they are to me too!), but I feel like I need ask you a question .......

Assuming you're not on the track to make a career out of it, why is purposely slowing the process between lifting of the accelerator and applying the brake such a big deal to you?

It's only going to cost you a fraction of a second each time, and it's repeatable so you know how much time it's costing in a lap. Why not just factor that out of your lap times and instead focus on improving your skills (optimally balancing the car at each corner segment to maximize your speed through the corners) to improve your time?

I totally agree except that I’m just not going to be able to do a perfectly ideal throttle to brake transfer every time, especially as I push the car harder for better lap times. I'm going to make mistakes, like in the video link I sent, and I don't think I should have to be worrying about this, especially if I don't need to.

[Gumb4mayor]

Any reports of 1LEs with the BCD package running into Ice Mode?

[cdb95z28]

Originally Posted by Gumb4mayor

Any reports of 1LEs with the BCD package running into Ice Mode?

None for me. I've run the OE copper free Bremebo pads, ZL1 sized HP1000s/DS2500s and currently DS1.11s. All used on track and street, no ice mode.

[GunMetalGrey]

My 2018 ZL1 accepted the brake module from the 2020 ZLE with no error messages or codes.

This should mean that if ZLE’s truly have no ice mode issues then my car should no longer either.

I’ll be testing the car at the track this Friday, August 18 and will report back. So far every time I’ve been to the track it has only taken a half a day to have icemode, so if I have an entire day at the track with no ice mode, I will consider it a success.

(Note I already have a 2019 ZL1 brake module in my 2018 and it did not make a difference regarding ice mode)

[mcbat8]

Originally Posted by Baddawg53

I get it going into turn 9, downhill short straight and hard braking zone with a little steering angle. I know you're familiar with it, I watched your 1:22 lap in your Tesla ... Flying!!!

Friend of mine has a 2020 SS 1le, when he was completely stock he wouldn't get it there. I'm curious what happens now that he's got a square setup.

Fortunately didn't experience ice mode going into T9. Brake felt pretty good all day. Car even dealt with low grip surface in T7 very well.

T9:
https://youtu.be/CT5DO8Fm4aM?t=71

T7:
https://youtu.be/CT5DO8Fm4aM?t=56

[GunMetalGrey]

Originally Posted by GunMetalGrey

My 2018 ZL1 accepted the brake module from the 2020 ZLE with no error messages or codes.

This should mean that if ZLE’s truly have no ice mode issues then my car should no longer either.

I’ll be testing the car at the track this Friday, August 18 and will report back. So far every time I’ve been to the track it has only taken a half a day to have icemode, so if I have an entire day at the track with no ice mode, I will consider it a success.

(Note I already have a 2019 ZL1 brake module in my 2018 and it did not make a difference regarding ice mode)

Most importantly, this should mean that everybody else can do this to their car as well instead of having to sell their car and buy a different model, or change the driving style severely or forgo modding and upgrading in their car to make it faster

[GunMetalGrey]

Update; wasn’t able to go to the track yesterday, will have to wait to test until August 31

[GunMetalGrey]

Last update on this, I went to the track to test the ZLE brake module with high hopes and expectations, however, I was disappointed, Ice Mode still exists even with the ZLE.

While it was relatively minor compared to other experiences, I have had all sorts ranging from Minor to Significant, so whether or not the ZLE limits ice mode to only minor experiences, I do not know, however, it was enough for me to keep the lack of confidence I have in my car and it’s stopping ability, and I will not be willing to experience this moving forward anymore which means no more tracking for me, as this has taken all the fun out of tracking my car, and pushing it to the limit.

I will be selling a bunch of my track gear, including brake pads and helmet and Hans device, so feel free to check the classifieds

[DaveC113]

That sucks. I don't think it's ice mode though, it's probably trying to keep you from spinning due to brake + steering inputs. Makes sense it's less severe in the ZLE due to the OEM 3R tires having more grip.

Do you think initiating braking with less steering input could solve the issue? I know it sucks to have to adjust your driving style to suit the car, but tons of folks track these cars without incident. I do think you should have bought a ZLE to begin with, but it's a bit late for that.

Maybe it's just time to move on to a real race car. I recently saw Camaro GT4Rs on sale for $125k. I wish I could afford one! I've driven one in Automobilista 2 on my Fanatec sim rig, if that's anywhere close to what it can do IRL it's capabilities are likely far larger than anyone's balls, assuming they aren't a pro race car driver. Bonus is it still has remnants of an OEM interior, so if you can get a VIN from a wrecked Camaro and use that to register it via salvage title, it'd also be CAM-C legal.

[Christian1LE]

Originally Posted by GunMetalGrey

Last update on this, I went to the track to test the ZLE brake module with high hopes and expectations, however, I was disappointed, Ice Mode still exists even with the ZLE.

While it was relatively minor compared to other experiences, I have had all sorts ranging from Minor to Significant, so whether or not the ZLE limits ice mode to only minor experiences, I do not know, however, it was enough for me to keep the lack of confidence I have in my car and it’s stopping ability, and I will not be willing to experience this moving forward anymore which means no more tracking for me, as this has taken all the fun out of tracking my car, and pushing it to the limit.

I will be selling a bunch of my track gear, including brake pads and helmet and Hans device, so feel free to check the classifieds

Get rid of the car and go with a track dedicated C5 or C6 corvette?

[N Camarolina]

Before you make any big-time decisions involving selling the car, consider looking inward.

A lot of us have contributed ideas to the topic you started, and it seems that the most likely culprit, backed up by careful PDR analysis by Ken, is too aggressive a transition from full throttle to full brake. Adapting your driving style to this may not cost you and lap time at all (or a negligible amount at the most). But your posts indicate you seem to want to find an equipment solution to this problem rather than a driving style solution (slightly slower transition from throttle to break).

I'd suggest you first go back to basics and focus on consistent smoother driving. Looking at some of the videos on your YT channel, sometimes your inputs are smooth, but other times you are over-driving the car (overly aggressively throttle to brake transition, aggressive steering input while under braking, too much throttle tip in on exit).

Practicing to be consistently smooth is a mental discipline that a good driver needs to have on the track. It will avoid your ice-mode problems, provide more predicable cornering, and I doubt it will slow you down much at all on track. In fact, on a road course race track, smooth inputs and carrying maximum speed through the corners is usually leads to the best times. Conversely, simply switching to another car with your current driving inconsistences may simply transfer or cause new problems in the vehicle you switch to.

I hope you stick with it!