[Chevelle vs Camaro]

Originally Posted by FollowMyLine

Need to know more about your driving habits, but the 0W-40 should cover you in all scenarios providing you’re not tracking the car on a competition-type tire.

Live in northwest (WA) daily driver. No track. Get driven hard maybe 5 minutes a week.

Still 0w-40?


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[FollowMyLine]

Originally Posted by Chevelle vs Camaro

Live in northwest (WA) daily driver. No track. Get driven hard maybe 5 minutes a week.

Still 0w-40?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I would still use the 0W-40, since it is the factory fill on your LT1, and a thicker weight oil than the 5W-30.

[N Camarolina]

Thanks Luan for posting this thread in an attempt to help clarify oil and filter choices. I watched your video and read the whole thing a few times over as well as checked the spec sheets for Supercar 0W40, ESP x3 0w-40, and Supercar 5w-50. I track my SS 1LE, and want to protect the engine as I've already blown one engine during track use. As such have a couple of questions that I hope you (or other knowledgeable forum members can answer to help me decide whether my current oil (ESP x3 0w-40) or Supercar 5w-50 is the better choice.

1) HTHS is touted as one of the most important factors for track use. ESP x3 0w-40 has a HTHS rating of 3.8, which is a decent bit higher than the Supercar 0W40 (3.5), but presumably lower than the Supercar 5w-50 (unpublished value, but presumably around 4.5 if similar to the old M1 15w-50). I'm scratching my head as to why your GM rep friend said the ESP x3 would be appropriate "in a pinch," implying it is somehow inferior to the Supercar 0w-40.
Given that the ESPx3 0w-40 is also Dexos2 certified, wouldn't it's higher HTHS value make it superior for track use to the Supercar 0w-40 ?

Might the ESP x3 it be good enough to not require the use of Supercar 0w-50?

2) The Supercar 5w-50 has a 40 degree c (100F) kinematic viscosity that is nearly twice as high as the Supercar and ESP x3 0w-40s (112 vs 69). My understanding is this stat indicates how fast oil flows when the engine is first started in a cold condition (100F), not when it's freezing cold out. So relevant to any climate all year long. It takes quite a while for OEM 0w-40 in the LT1 to get up to full operating temp under light throttle driving, so you want your oil flowing well during the warm up phase.
If you were to use the 5w-50 for DD might that potentially result in additional engine wear during start up, even if you let the engine idle for a bit? Or is 112 still thought to still be well below the threshold of what is too viscous for a cold start in an LT1 engine?

3) Our LT1 engines are supposed to use low SAPs oil, thus the Dexos2 specification. Dexos2 calls for phosphorus levels to be 700-900. Supercar 5w-50 appears to have 1100 or 1200 (see Hagler's post #45 of this thread), which seems to exceed the Dexos2 limits and is only about 100 points less than the old M1 15w-50 which GM says is no good for our Cats.
So are we sure the Supercar 5w-50 is actually safe for our Cats?

[OB0001]

Originally Posted by FollowMyLine

I would stick to the ESP 5W-30 because it is designed for the detergent burn off rates that won’t harm the catalytic converters in the exhaust system. While the levels of phosphors and zinc are the same for the high-mileage, the ESP is designed for our particulate filters in the cats. If you haven’t been using ESP oil at all, then at this point it doesn’t matter and you can either continue to use what you have been.

[mlee]

This Video is worthy of a sticky in the Servicing Section and I'll move it there after some time here in General.

Great rundown and nice to have current info especially with the 5W30 supercar version.

Only one very small note and I commented on YT. The performance manual "requires" 15W50 for the ZLE and not the SS 1LE. However it "may" be used in the SS 1LE.

Again... just an outstanding video! Subscribed!!!!

[cdrptrks]

Originally Posted by FollowMyLine

5W-50 seems to be the magic elixir. It’s heavy enough to add the additional protection needed in higher-G loads (but not quite SC3R or other high-grip tires) and as long as the car isn’t being driven in cold climates, it will work just fine. In the rare instance you may be running a cold track day (think less than 40°F) you just need to let the oil warm up for 5-10 minutes first.

Thank you for taking time to share this video and info!

The 5W-50 DexosR Supercar oil is factory fill in the C8 Corvette Z06 like you mentioned in the video. The Z06 has an available option for 140 treadwear Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 R ZP tires. Those tires should have a similar grip level to Supercar 3R from the info I can find (see below) although there don't seem to be any direct comparison articles/videos. Therefore the 5W-50 should offer a similar level of hot protection as the 15W-50 with the added benefit of faster "cold" startup flow (cold meaning the oil is at ambient temperature, not specifically winter level temperatures). API 1509 mandates specific viscosity requirements to be met to advertise an oil as -50 so even if one is slightly better they are both significantly better than a -40 oil.

This video says Cup 2 R tires are 1.5 seconds (2.5%) faster than Cup 2 tires on a 1 minute lap. I don't know if the Z06's ZP (run flat) version has different performance compared to the non ZP version of the Cup 2 R but I'm assuming the performance is the same. Throttle House found the Camaro SS 1LE lap time with Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires was only 0.04 seconds different than Goodyear Supercar 3 tires although these tests were 2 years apart so conditions might have been more favorable during one test. Personally my best lap time is about 1.9% faster on Supercar 3R tires than Supercar 3 tires in my SS 1LE averaged across 5 different tracks. (Note that I had less sessions on the 3R tires every time so there was probably more performance in them that I didn't manage to take advantage of since I generally try to increase my pace gradually each session.)

For those who are still in warranty, it is worth it to buy the Dexos2 (2022 and earlier) or DexosR (2023+) oil as specified in your manual to cover yourself in case you have engine warranty work and the dealership requests receipts to prove that oil change(s) were done meeting the requirements in the manual. It is great if other brands meet/exceed those Dexos requirements but if they didn't go through the process to get certified then that is a technicality a dealership could use to void your warranty and force you to pay a lawyer to fight such a decision or pay for thousands of dollars of repairs yourself.

In my case I ran the old ESP 0W-40 oil (now rebranded as Supercar 0W-40) and switched to 0W-40 ESP X3 when it came out because AutoZone had a single product page with mixed inventory of both when X3 first came out. I have a Blackstone used oil analysis report with a lot of track time from both of these oils and most numbers are similar plus no concerns were noted on either report.

I had the new ESP 0W-40 X3 oil in my car when it required engine warranty work due to a misfire which seemed to be caused by a failed lifter (non AFM in my case but the AFM lifter actuation doesn't happen on 6 speed manual cars like mine anyways). I was running Supercar 3 tires at the time. Surprisingly no oil/filter receipts were requested (I did my own oil changes for a few years leading up to this point) and there was no mention of a used oil analysis being done by the dealership.

I have continued running the 0W-40 ESP X3 after the warranty repairs and so far so good (knock on wood) after visiting 14 different tracks since then. I used 3R tires for 7 sessions total (at 3 different tracks) during this time without issues but it seems like a good idea for me to switch to the Supercar 5W-50 oil going forward.

[cdrptrks]

Originally Posted by FollowMyLine

So, what happens if I leave the 15W-50 in the car and do not switch back to 0W-40? Another excellent question. I’m so glad you brought your thinking cap.

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with leaving 15W-50 in your car, depending on where you live. The downside to this is that you get less cold-weather protection, and your fuel mileage will suffer minimally and in theory, you’ll lose a tiny bit of horsepower. Think less than 1 mile per gallon or a hand full of horsies. However, depending on environment, your mileage may vary.

Mobil1 says "Up to 70% of engine wear may occur during the first 3 seconds of startup".

Amsoil says "most engine wear happens at startup" and "An engine is considered “cold” after it’s sat long enough to cool to ambient temperature, typically overnight. When it’s time to start your vehicle in the morning, the thicker oil doesn’t flow as rapidly as it does at operating temperature, leaving components vulnerable for a short time. Therefore, even in warmer climates, the motor oil’s cold-start capability matters for vehicle longevity."

Update: I think this might be an incorrect conclusion:

Based on this info, I would only use 0W or 5W oil unless the car is trailered to the track and not driven on the street because the 15W oil is going to increase wear due to slower flow every time you start the car when the oil is at ambient temperature (not just in cold winter temperatures) compared to 0W or 5W oil.

[FlukeSS]

Well that probably explains why my engine blew up. Why there was no spun bearing material in the oil filter, why there was no knocking, why there were no warning lights, why the engine just locked up without symptom.

Did not use ESP/Supercar used European standard 0w40 oil.

Wish I would have known this about 7 weeks ago.

[cdrptrks]

Your mods (including increased horsepower and tune) were much more likely to cause a catastrophic engine issue than running Mobil1 0W-40 European Car Formula instead of ESP or Supercar in my opinion.

[N Camarolina]

Originally Posted by cdrptrks

Mobil1 says "Up to 70% of engine wear may occur during the first 3 seconds of startup".

Amsoil says "most engine wear happens at startup" and "An engine is considered “cold” after it’s sat long enough to cool to ambient temperature, typically overnight. When it’s time to start your vehicle in the morning, the thicker oil doesn’t flow as rapidly as it does at operating temperature, leaving components vulnerable for a short time. Therefore, even in warmer climates, the motor oil’s cold-start capability matters for vehicle longevity."

Based on this info, I would only use 0W or 5W oil unless the car is trailered to the track and not driven on the street because the 15W oil is going to increase wear due to slower flow every time you start the car when the oil is at ambient temperature (not just in cold winter temperatures) compared to 0W or 5W oil.

Still hoping to see some reply to the 3 questions I posed in post yesterday, but in the meantime, I thought I'd add a little more build upon CDRPTRKS comments on "cold start":

I believe the relevant stat to consider for cold start condition is Kinematic Viscosity @40 degrees C (100F). Here are the resultant values for the various M1 oil weights being discussed in this thread.

5w30 = 62
0w40 ESP x3 = 69
0w40 Supercar = 69
5w50 Supercar = 112
15w50 = 125

As you can see, 5W30 and both 0w40 formulations are similar, in the 60s. 5w50 has a much higher value of 112 and is far more similar in this regard to the old 15w50 (125), which has been stated by GM to be unacceptable for daily use.

This data also emphasizes an important point: Two different variable viscosity oils, both having 5W as their lower # are not necessarily going to have the same viscosity at a given temperature, in this case 40c/100F (witness 5w30 =62; 5w50=112).

Based on this, I'm left to conclude that 5w50 isn't a good idea for daily use in the LT1/LT4. Simply too much resistance to flow at 100F (cold start engine condition), and presumably will cause too much wear to engine parts while the engine/oil warms up. Perhaps the C8 Z06 engine for which the 5w50 was designed has wider diameter oil galleys (easier to flow a more viscous oil) than the LT1/LT4.

Thoughts anyone?

[cdrptrks]

Originally Posted by N Camarolina

As you can see, 5W30 and both 0w40 formulations are similar, in the 60s. 5w50 has a much higher value of 112 and is far more similar in this regard to the old 15w50 (125), which has been stated by GM to be unacceptable for daily use.

Good point. Although there is a big difference between the numbers, both are very small relative to the allowed kinematic viscosity at -15°C to -30°C for the different oil weights (attached, found here, same units
[cP absolute viscosity = mm2/s kinematic viscosity] as the numbers mentioned in N Camarolina's post above, source).

So it looks like I was wrongly assuming that there would be a significant difference between 0W or 5W and 15W at 40°C but there actually isn't. Even though the 5W-50 kinematic viscosity is almost double that of 0W-40 at 40°C, the allowed kinematic viscosity at -15°C to -30°C is 31 to 47 times greater!

It is unfortunate that I don't think the reason was officially given for why 15W-50 is unacceptable for daily use but FollowMyLine's insiders seem confident that it was only because of advertised fuel economy being tested with a different oil weight.

[cdrptrks]

Originally Posted by N Camarolina

3) Our LT1 engines are supposed to use low SAPs oil, thus the Dexos2 specification. Dexos2 calls for phosphorus levels to be 700-900. Supercar 5w-50 appears to have 1100 or 1200 (see Hagler's post #45 of this thread), which seems to exceed the Dexos2 limits and is only about 100 points less than the old M1 15w-50 which GM says is no good for our Cats.
So are we sure the Supercar 5w-50 is actually safe for our Cats?

Hmm maybe not; there is a note on the Supercar oil spec page that says "Catalytic converter compatibility (only applicable for Mobil 1™ Supercar 0W-40)". Of course the C8 Z06 must have catalytic converters...I wonder if they're somehow designed differently to tolerate this oil or if GM just figured warranty replacement of the catalytic converters for those who drive a lot into the car's cost.

https://www.mobil.com/en/lubricants/...supercar-5w-50

Also it seems that they just did a find and replace for Dexos2 to DexosR when updating the 2022 Camaro owner's manual to the 2023 version. Apparently DexosR allows a higher phosphorus limit since Supercar 5W-50 is DexosR but I doubt the catalytic converters were changed on the Camaro for 2023.

"Alternatively, larger quantities of volatile phosphorus contained in ZDDP have been linked to premature poisoning of the catalyst surface of three-way catalytic converters and is a primary reason phosphorus has been limited in certain oil specifications."
http://www.winnipegsynthetics.ca/art...ps_levels.html

[FollowMyLine]

Wow, so much activity on the thread! I'll have to dig in a bit more on the questions I missed, but I DID FIND the Oil Data Sheet on Mobil 1's website updated in 2022, which includes the latest versions of the oils listed.

Mobil 1 Oil Data Sheet - May 2022

Strange, The Oil Data Sheet I found initially had the DexosR stuff and that link doesn't. Here is a picture that I can't seem to find anymore.

[FollowMyLine]

Honestly, after looking at all of the different data between the Euro Formula ESP and the Supercar 0W-40, I can't seem to find a reason why it would not work and be safe to use. Maybe my GM insider was just covering himself by recommending the Supercar oils and the 15W-50 because it is what they have actually physically tested with.

Next time I get a chance to speak with him, I will ask him again.