[sr71bb]

I post this up in THIS forum because there are a few of us that are constantly chasing a better track time number but in that quest there are some important things that have to be considered in no particular order.

What is your honest assessment of what your skill level is as a driver??? My own opinion is that you want your car to be just slightly ahead of where you are as a driver. A GREAT example of this is a great driver in a MIATA spec car with less than 200HP car probably go faster around a road course faster than a intermediate level driver in a Camaro. The MIATA driver is pushing the limits of what that SPEC car can do without exceeding those limits and is doing this on a VERY consistent basis from LAP to LAP. While NO DOUBT the MIATA is WAY outclassed on the straightaways , we all have a tendancy to forget there are many more CURVES on a road course than there are straightaways.

So the bottom line is the MOST important modification for going faster is the DRIVER. Once you feel you are pushing the capabilities of the car as a driver THEN perhaps it is time to consider some MODs to the car. One of the better ways to judge where you are as a driver is to look at all your laps times in a session and see just how close those times are to each other. Typically if they are within a second or so of each other THEN you have some consistency and you are pushing the limits of where you are CURRENTLY as a driver and of where the car is as well.

What is your COMFORT level on the track??? Let's face it we all have a different level of comfort. A good example I can give relates to a road course I race frequently EAGLES CANYON RACEWAY. On the BACK straight I hit usually 135-136MPH JUST PRIOR to a end of that straight that basically goes into an almost 90 degree turn. I typically brake LATER than most people at marker number TWO. I would say MOST people would NOT be comfortable braking that late assuming their car had the capability to that.

So WHATEVER level it is that you are at, STICK to what feels comfortable to YOU. There is NO SENSE for instance in modifying your car to have a capability that you are not comfortable in exploring.

As you get better as a driver, that comfort level you have with you car will change and the things you think were NOT possible before will become attainable.

[dsm_mikey]

Agreed!

Seat time, not mods to go faster!

[AZIROC]

For a road course, I 100% agree. My zl1 was already over kill on the track. I did a pulley/full exhaust/cai and tune (plus alot of suspension work) and now it's beyond over kill and I truely never get to use ALL the power it has unless I got a long straight

My wife wanted to get into hpde and we found a very good condition '99 WS6. it's all stock engine wise but has some suspension done already. She is use to my zl1 and wants 400/500/600 hp...and I told her the stock 300ish is going to be PLENTY for the track. It's getting all new bushings, upgraded brakes and koni's/springs. I told her if she out drives the 300 hp it has, we will look into putting a new engine into it but I figure that will be a few years.

[Osbornsm]

My N/A tuned SS is plenty until I'm next to a tuned ZL-1 on slicks 🤣

But to answer your question... Yes, I am chasing times... What motivates you?

[N Camarolina]

Couldn't agree more.

The BMW CCA group that I do HPDE with likes to use the Corvette owner vs Miyata driver as the example of giving point-by to cars that are faster in the corners. There is no skill required to go slow in the corners (well below limits of traction) and then rocket down the straights.

In fact, most everyone at HPDE uses the straights as a time to check gauges and relax. So I see little reason to add HP, especially if you already have 450.

[sr71bb]

Originally Posted by Osbornsm

My N/A tuned SS is plenty until I'm next to a tuned ZL-1 on slicks ��

But to answer your question... Yes, I am chasing times... What motivates you?

What motivates me is all based on a Mark Twain statement which goes like this: "Continuos improvement is far better than instaneous perfection"

Every track day I strive to be faster than the previous ones before it. Weather and equipment permitting I have generally been able to do that. Everything else takes care of itself. I take great pride in being faster than other cars that on paper should be faster than me that can cost upwards of ten times the cost of the investment I have in my car.

[khcoaching]

Since this topic is my livelihood, yes, the driver is the single biggest variable in the total equation. I've made my living coaching motorsports for over 20 years, you would be surprised at how few people actually are willing to improve.....the percentage willing to commit is less than you think. Yep, we all want a better lap time, myself included, but committing to professional coaching is typically the last on the list after modifying your ride.

I always joke - "how is that new tune doing when you are braking 300' too early..."

Ken

[sr71bb]

Originally Posted by khcoaching

Since this topic is my livelihood, yes, the driver is the single biggest variable in the total equation. I've made my living coaching motorsports for over 20 years, you would be surprised at how few people actually are willing to improve.....the percentage willing to commit is less than you think. Yep, we all want a better lap time, myself included, but committing to professional coaching is typically the last on the list after modifying your ride.

I always joke - "how is that new tune doing when you are braking 300' too early..."

Ken

Great points KEN!!! I think in some cases people want to improve but are unwilling to drive on the edge so to speak because it is too uncomfortable for them to do so. It has to do DIRECTLY with driver confidence.

I have been tutored to an extent by a GREAT driver and when I am in the passenger seat you can feel he is on the very edge of adhesion on almost EVERY turn. I can tell he is truly comfortable with that and when he goes over that edge slightly he can immediately correct. What was even more amazing to me is that within 2-3 laps in my car that he NEVER has driven before, he attained that level of comfort. The fact that he set this car up no doubt has something to do with that (LOL) but really it is mostly HIM.

The other main factor is FEAR of FAILURE. The majority of people DO NOT look at failure as the GREATEST teacher of them all. If you NEVER drive up to the edge of your car's capability how would you possibly know where it is???

For me though that is the absolute joy and thrill of driving. Pushing up to the limits of the car's capability along with your own driving ability. We ALL can get better. You can learn something from ANYBODY if your mind is open to it. To the greatest THRILL ride of them all...Road Racing.

Greg

[BanOne]

SO a bit of a different perspective. I am a novice and coming up to speed on the whole HPDE thing, trying to learn as much as I can. I went at it on my own for the first year just to get used to things and see if I wanted to do it further., I was that guy fast in the straights and slow in the corners After coaxing from a friend I signed up with Chin and had an instructor for a day at sebring. I was getting a bit faster in the morning sessions but what clicked for me was riding in his car and seeing him drive. Mostly, seeing him test the limits. The next two sessions I ended up taking a total of about 15 seconds off my times because I could see what he was saying put into practice. That was a great experience. Unfortunately, the next event at homestead I go a "coach" that was not really interested in coaching was just really there for the free track time, needless to say the day was still fun but I found myself ignoring alot of what he was saying because it felt in conflict with what I knew was going on with the car. So coaching at track events can be hit or miss if you are going to go with a coach make sure it is a true professional.

Another small point on the consistent lap times, being in novice solo it has become difficult to set consistent lap times and "get into a groove" because of the range of levels you are getting in that class, I find myself wanting to move up just so I can concentrate on my ability and not worrying about the traffic.

Bit of a long spew and I am sorry for that.

[BoilerUP]

Before I started doing HPDE in my ATS-V, I had already done power mods to get me to 600whp (twin turbo LF4 responds well to ethanol and tune).

Just 10 HPDE days in so far, in-car instruction is the single biggest thing that has made me faster. Not track pads, not Super 200s, not SPL arms, not even added power...having somebody explain the concept of weight transfer to me. Of course there were other tips and tricks as part of the instruction, but as a novice knowing I needed to accelerate passing the apex to transfer weight and get the car to rotate made a YUGE difference. That instructor taking me for a few laps in his GT4 to see it in action (even with the admitted different driving dynamics) helped everything click.

The second biggest thing is data & video review. Seeing where I did well, where I made mistakes and where I held back a bit has helped me become more consistent, and consistency helps pace.

Having a car that is capable of pace is helpful, but after the path I've taken, I kinda wish I had spent my engine mod budget on pads, tires, seat time and instruction. I don't think anybody will say "I wish I had less power" but it definitely can mask learning where the limits of traction are through experience.

[5.M0NSTER]

Great post OP! After 30+ track days in various cars with various degrees of modding I also reached the same conclusion.

Ultimate fastest time is not what I'm after. It's fastest possible with my setup. Which on the Camaro is stock except for brake pads and fluid.

Same pads, same tires, same driver. This way the gains I see I can directly attribute to Driver mod.

My lap times are within 0.3s of each other typically on a 1:30 course. So I'm very consistent and execute my line fairly well. Now the question I ask is if my line is really the fastest way around the track, and this is where the gains and fun come from.

[N Camarolina]

Originally Posted by BanOne

SO a bit of a different perspective. I am a novice and coming up to speed on the whole HPDE thing, trying to learn as much as I can. I went at it on my own for the first year just to get used to things and see if I wanted to do it further., I was that guy fast in the straights and slow in the corners After coaxing from a friend I signed up with Chin and had an instructor for a day at sebring. I was getting a bit faster in the morning sessions but what clicked for me was riding in his car and seeing him drive. Mostly, seeing him test the limits. The next two sessions I ended up taking a total of about 15 seconds off my times because I could see what he was saying put into practice. That was a great experience. Unfortunately, the next event at homestead I go a "coach" that was not really interested in coaching was just really there for the free track time, needless to say the day was still fun but I found myself ignoring alot of what he was saying because it felt in conflict with what I knew was going on with the car. So coaching at track events can be hit or miss if you are going to go with a coach make sure it is a true professional.

Another small point on the consistent lap times, being in novice solo it has become difficult to set consistent lap times and "get into a groove" because of the range of levels you are getting in that class, I find myself wanting to move up just so I can concentrate on my ability and not worrying about the traffic.

Bit of a long spew and I am sorry for that.

Most of us an in this do it to get the rush of controlling something that is near the edge of being out of control, and to do it consistently. For someone in the novice group looking to move up, there are several things I suggest you consider, both to make you fast, AND to keep you SAFE:

1)Always remember that you are in a road going car with road devised safety systems. That means the seat belt and air bag system was designed for ~50mph impacts at most. On the track, if you impact a wall or natural barrier, you likely will be exceeding that speed. So everything we do should be with an eye toward keeping the car on the track or regaining control in time to keep the car on the track surface.

2) To keep you and everybody else safe, you as the driver have several things to manage, and it's not just about your car control. You have to have high situational awareness of the other cars around you (keeping your vision up looking ahead as well as using your mirrors often). You also have to monitor all the flag stations that could be warning you of an upcoming danger on or near the track (a car that has spun out, fluid or debris on the track).

When you are a novice, it is very mentally taxing and difficult to manage both your car control AND these additional responsibilities. It takes seat time to train your brain to make some of these tasks get handled by your subconscious. In-car instructors can monitor your ability to manage these tasks as well as shoulder some of the load until you are more capable.

3) Approaching and pushing the limit SAFELY takes knowledge and skills that must be learned. While it may be helpful for an instructor (or Youtube PDR recordings) to show you just how fast your car can safely go through corners, this is not enough to make it possible or safe for YOU as a novice to do the same. So, be humble about being a novice (which it sounds like you are) and accept that you don't know what you don't know.

4) Building on #3, instructors and classroom time are what will build both your skills and your confidence level. It sounds like so far you've had mixed results with your instructor experiences. I'd suggest that you find an HPDE organization that puts a high priority on instructor quality and overall safety, as this definitely is not equal between different HPDE organizations. At the risk of ruffling some feathers here with others, I'd say that you want an organization that provides instructors at least for the novice and intermediate levels, and maybe even advanced level. Private (for profit) HPDE groups tend to make in-car instructors completely optional or only provide them for novice students, and many of the non-profit ones only guarantee instructors for novice group. Conversely, BMW CCA (I tend to do these events) and Porsche (there may be some others as well, but I haven't been able to find them) provide instructors for every run-group level, though they typically will approve you to run solo in the last 1 or 2 session of a weekend. Check motorsportreg website for upcoming events in your area as it captures most organizations offerings with exception of Porsche (PCA) who seem to have their own website.

The potential for learning never stops, so it's nice if the instruction doesn't either. But I'll acknowledge that as you get more advanced you are expected to be able to self-diagnose your errors as well as become more capable of learning through solo practice.

5) Traffic on the track should not be viewed as a hindrance. In fact, I'd argue in the intermediate and advanced run groups, it makes track time both more fun and a better learning tool.

As you advance in your skills and run group, passing will start to occur at more difficult locations on the track (the ends of straight aways, and eventually in corners). So you will not be entering a corner on the ideal line (it might be least ideal line) and you will need to make adjustments in your speed and control inputs to successfully navigate the corner at "best possible speed," which is not that much slower than the optimal line.

Initially, it is a scary and uncomfortable thing to accelerate to make a pass on a short-straight, knowing that you are on the wrong side of the track and will need to execute the braking corrrectly to stay ahead of the other car as well as make the corner and exit reasonably well. But, this is something that the better HPDE organizations help prepare you for. For my upper intermediate skill level, BMW CCA has you do 1 session of the weekend doing on track exercises where drive the entire track with another car next to you or pass only in the corners.

6) Before you go driving your car to the limit, you need to know how to regain control once you lose traction (either in the front wheels, or in the rear wheels). Do a few wet skid-pad exercises with an HPDE group. It can help immensely to help you both learn what to look for on the track (sensory clues) and how to recover control.

[5.M0NSTER]

One thing I should add. My philosophy has been that hooked up is faster than sliding around. When I push harder I slide around more, and lap times suffer. I am very confident in my ability to catch the slides, and stay on line. But Pros can slide around and pick up time. So I can still work on staying on throttle and fixing excessive side slip with steering inputs only. This, in addition to fine tuning the line is where I see my driver mod potential.

[Briland_1LE]

You can mod your car in ways that make it safer on track. Brake system upgrades to handle extra abuse, some aero to reduce lift, suspension components that reduce deflection and give you a better more consistent geometry.