[N Camarolina]

Originally Posted by Mark R

I don't think so. Automotive design and engine configurations are primarily driven by government mandates. That's why the V-8 is getting killed. It has nothing to do with buyer choice or preferences, or manufacturer choices and preferences.

Ordinary people are viewed as little children by the government. Once government whittles down our choices, then the consumer will make his choices from the available options.

Little Johnny might want a hamburger for lunch, but Mommy offers only PB&J or mac and cheese. When he chooses PB&J, Mommy says that's his favorite.

I'm sure there's an element of truth to this, but it isn't the only factor that determines what's put up for sale in the market place, not by a long shot.

Take for example the rise of the SUV (I like this example in particular because I hate SUVs, even though we own one). The concept first appeared in the late 80s. Heavily advertised over the next 20 years. By the early 2000s, they had certainly caught on, but there were still plenty of sedans and sports cars being built each year. Fast forward to the 2010s and sedan/sports car market sees decreasing demand and dwindling new offerings. Today it seems nearly everyone is perfectly happy either driving a boring SUV or an oversized pick up truck (most guys aren't even hauling anything in them). I don't think the government had much to do with these changes (think about it, these vehicles are less fuel efficient than a sedan, so why would the government promote or engineer their demise). It's just humans having preferences in the type of vehicle they drive and/or responding to advertising.

[Mark R]

Originally Posted by N Camarolina

I'm sure there's an element of truth to this, but it isn't the only factor that determines what's put up for sale in the market place, not by a long shot.

Take for example the rise of the SUV (I like this example in particular because I hate SUVs, even though we own one). The concept first appeared in the late 80s. Heavily advertised over the next 20 years. By the early 2000s, they had certainly caught on, but there were still plenty of sedans and sports cars being built each year. Fast forward to the 2010s and sedan/sports car market sees decreasing demand and dwindling new offerings. Today it seems nearly everyone is perfectly happy either driving a boring SUV or an oversized pick up truck (most guys aren't even hauling anything in them). I don't think the government had much to do with these changes (think about it, these vehicles are less fuel efficient than a sedan, so why would the government promote or engineer their demise). It's just humans having preferences in the type of vehicle they drive and/or responding to advertising.

I agree with you about those macro trends towards SUVs and trucks. But going forward, we will have fewer and fewer real choices.

My 2019 Jeep Grand Cherokee Trailhawk daily driver has a 5.7 liter V-8. No JGC has a V-8 any more. The 2023 Trailhawk has 1 engine choice now: a 2 liter turbo 4 hybrid, for $19,000 more than just 4 years ago. A 37% price increase, with 100 less HP.

That is not consumer choice. That is not progress. That is the government coming in to neuter our cars because they can, and because they want to. It's all about control.

[Devstrike]

There are a lot of pickup truck owners assuming it is not all talk that will jump up to a 2500 to hold on to the V8. I have seen this in various forums and Big 3 specific truck forums for the past few years now. That being said GM invested in more V8s for their trucks and SUVs. I don't think we will see the end of the V8 at least in the trucks for a while no matter what some pencil pusher in Cali throws around. With the segment we are in we don't have much to stand on. The pickup truck owners actually do they are the Big 3s bread and butter. The reason this is relevant is we will still have V8s to drop in stuff for a while like Camaros etc.

[Devstrike]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Has anyone here bought a car that has zero compromises? If so, why did you mod it?

My current Camaro. Outside of tinted windows and a dashcam I honestly do not really see a need to mod it right now outside of rear wheel and tire size. The car is perfect I can't describe how fun it is and it always puts a smile on my face. I have absolutely no issues outside of the parking brake being electronic but I digress. I never had a car that checked so many boxes and was this perfect with parking brake being the only think I can think of as a dislike. I know it is not a 1LE but it can still turn on the twisties and did fine in the autocross the V8 never disappoints and I just can't say enough about it. Only regret is I wish I could drive it more has 6k miles due to issues medically with my back and leg.

[WiggyB]

Over the years I have always thought to buy a ne car and never did. Evnethough I liked a lot of them I never had the urge to pull the trigger until now. I even sold my 81 z28 I had just fnished restoring 3 months prior to be able to get my car. Love it is an understatement. I don't have any complaints about the car blind spots, cabin space or anything else. We won't even talk about the looks because its better than any other year I can recall. Chevy all the way here so I'm very bias.

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by SMURFSUP

I love the car. Just wish they made the wireless charger big enough to actually fit a phone that can wireless charge lol

A bit of trimming might help unless you have some of the newer Ultra samsungs or a giant iPhone, those won't fit at all indeed:

[Gen6cyl]

Originally Posted by FarmerFran

Ok,

I bought mine because WAAAAA WAAAAAAAA WWAAAAAAAAAAA WAAAAAAAAAA with the top down

You savage

[ariZona28]

Originally Posted by FarmerFran

Ok,

I bought mine because WAAAAA WAAAAAAAA WWAAAAAAAAAAA WAAAAAAAAAA with the top down

OK, I'm I the only one who can visualize Fran "air shifting" while sitting at his computer or tapping on his phone?

[79 TransAm that never was]

Originally Posted by N Camarolina

I'm sure there's an element of truth to this, but it isn't the only factor that determines what's put up for sale in the market place, not by a long shot.

Take for example the rise of the SUV (I like this example in particular because I hate SUVs, even though we own one). The concept first appeared in the late 80s. Heavily advertised over the next 20 years. By the early 2000s, they had certainly caught on, but there were still plenty of sedans and sports cars being built each year. Fast forward to the 2010s and sedan/sports car market sees decreasing demand and dwindling new offerings. Today it seems nearly everyone is perfectly happy either driving a boring SUV or an oversized pick up truck (most guys aren't even hauling anything in them). I don't think the government had much to do with these changes (think about it, these vehicles are less fuel efficient than a sedan, so why would the government promote or engineer their demise). It's just humans having preferences in the type of vehicle they drive and/or responding to advertising.

The skip shift is just one of many examples of government mandated overreach into the content of our vehicles for "your safety". GM didn't create a manual trans that locks drivers out of certain gears because consumers demanded it, skip shift was the automakers reaction to government mandated CAFE standards.

People try to blame automakers for the high cost of vehicles without realizing that much of the high costs are because of government mandates.
Air bags? How many motorists demanded them? None that I can think of.

Thanks to the government (and lawyers), automakers have to memorialize every safety oriented parts torque and make sure that the required number nuts or bolts are installed. If a job station doesn't complete all of the criteria entered into the computer for that job the assembly line stops until the job is complete and up to specs. All of this is done to protect auto manufacturers from recalls and lawsuits.
As an example...Manufacturers are forced to save proof that they put on all of the lug nuts and torqued them to spec. Assembly tools had to be tied into assembly line computers and every part with a bar code on it is scanned before it can be put on a vehicle. ECM's, PCM's, Seat belts, PRNDL control modules, all could stop production even if the part can be installed safely further into production.
So when GM runs out of a safety oriented part that the government demands that GM must scan and save to their computers the assembly line stops production. if the part isn't available within 4 hours everyone is sent home costing automakers millions in lost production

I worked on a GM assembly line for over 27 years and saw first hand why cars cost so much. It wasn't because of the workers pay and benefits, it was because of stupid government mandates!

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by FarmerFran

Ok,

I bought mine because WAAAAA WAAAAAAAA WWAAAAAAAAAAA WAAAAAAAAAA with the top down

Originally Posted by ariZona28

OK, I'm I the only one who can visualize Fran "air shifting" while sitting at his computer or tapping on his phone?

I was shifting while I was reading it.

[SMURFSUP]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

A bit of trimming might help unless you have some of the newer Ultra samsungs or a giant iPhone, those won't fit at all indeed:

I will be trying this thank you!! Its just a Samsung S22

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by 79 TransAm that never was

As an example...Manufacturers are forced to save proof that they put on all of the lug nuts and torqued them to spec. Assembly tools had to be tied into assembly line computers and every part with a bar code on it is scanned before it can be put on a vehicle. ECM's, PCM's, Seat belts, PRNDL control modules, all could stop production even if the part can be installed safely further into production.
So when GM runs out of a safety oriented part that the government demands that GM must scan and save to their computers the assembly line stops production. if the part isn't available within 4 hours everyone is sent home costing automakers millions in lost production

I worked on a GM assembly line for over 27 years and saw first hand why cars cost so much. It wasn't because of the workers pay and benefits, it was because of stupid government mandates!

I fully agree with minimizing government overreach and bureaucracy boosting, costly mandates in most cases, but to be honest, your example about checking equipment built into line tooling isn't the strongest. When technology is available to scan and check, say, those lug nuts and their applied torque, do you want this not to be performed? To me, that tradeoff is on the wrong "side", because if a wheel falls off and someone dies due to a line worker making a mistake that goes unchecked and thus undetected, it's an easily preventable occurrence and thus raises a legitimate (not some frivolous, modern day BS) liability concern.

What I'm trying to say is this is a spectrum—one extreme is zero freedom and maximum safety, the other is doing nothing or just the bare minimum in terms of safety and security, then good luck to y'all.

Everyone has a different "comfort zone" on this specific spectrum, but unfortunately there are so many of these decisions in life, with so much information and subtlety attached, not even considering lies and deceit, that most people don't have the energy or mental capability to make educated decisions about them and just want something that is "very safe". Sad, but true.

The airbag is another slightly moot example. I've been on this forum for 5 years and numerous crashes have been reported by members where airbags made a huge difference. Now airbags could definitely be made optional if someone doesn't want crash protection, but then I wonder how much cheaper that would make cars, surely people mixing and matching the 8 or so airbags in the Camaro will result in complexity on the assembly line that will diminish the cost savings.

Fuel economy standards is a much better example, however. Those aren't advantageous beyond a certain point (of practical unfeasibility) and are basically aimed at gradually outlawing internal combustion engines at the federal level, which is definitely the kind of interference you spoke up against.

Just my 2 cents', as usual.

[79 TransAm that never was]

In all cases employees can quickly shut the line down and correct anything that is wrong. It's when the government gets involved that I take issue with. I've seen numerous instances where the computers f-up, go down for unexplained reasons, etc. and when this occurs the line automatically shuts down even though employees can still do their job, do it safely, and without any risk to the consumer.
Perhaps I should have been more specific when it comes to wheel assembly, my bad. Numerous times we lost hours of production due to government mandated computers that forced us to document everything to do with the tires, from mounting to final assembly. If a car company can't manufacture a safe vehicle without the governments interference, then they won't be in business long. But, when an assembly plant is micro managed by computers it's prone to way too many problems caused by computer errors.


We'll have to agree to disagree about air bags. However if you were to look back at their history you'll find that air bags came into play the same time as CAFE standards. Why is that? Because government mandated CAFE standards were impossible to meet without manufacturers lightening the weight of the vehicle with thinner steel and plastics making those vehicles unsafe to ride in.

Ever increasing government CAFE standards are exactly what is forcing manufacturers to switch over to electric vehicles. Manufacturers aren't switching because of consumer demand for electric vehicles, they're being forced to switch due to ever rising government CAFE standards.

Originally Posted by arpad_m

I fully agree with minimizing government overreach and bureaucracy boosting, costly mandates in most cases, but to be honest, your example about checking equipment built into line tooling isn't the strongest. When technology is available to scan and check, say, those lug nuts and their applied torque, do you want this not to be performed? To me, that tradeoff is on the wrong "side", because if a wheel falls off and someone dies due to a line worker making a mistake that goes unchecked and thus undetected, it's an easily preventable occurrence and thus raises a legitimate (not some frivolous, modern day BS) liability concern.

What I'm trying to say is this is a spectrum—one extreme is zero freedom and maximum safety, the other is doing nothing or just the bare minimum in terms of safety and security, then good luck to y'all.

Everyone has a different "comfort zone" on this specific spectrum, but unfortunately there are so many of these decisions in life, with so much information and subtlety attached, not even considering lies and deceit, that most people don't have the energy or mental capability to make educated decisions about them and just want something that is "very safe". Sad, but true.

The airbag is another slightly moot example. I've been on this forum for 5 years and numerous crashes have been reported by members where airbags made a huge difference. Now airbags could definitely be made optional if someone doesn't want crash protection, but then I wonder how much cheaper that would make cars, surely people mixing and matching the 8 or so airbags in the Camaro will result in complexity on the assembly line that will diminish the cost savings.

Fuel economy standards is a much better example, however. Those aren't advantageous beyond a certain point (of practical unfeasibility) and are basically aimed at gradually outlawing internal combustion engines at the federal level, which is definitely the kind of interference you spoke up against.

Just my 2 cents', as usual.

[95 imp]

Originally Posted by 302crossram

lose 400lbs and it could be one of the best cars in the world...

too heavy is my only beef

Been saying that since day 1.

As far as visibility, cargo space, and cramped cockpit/"un-useable" back seat goes, they have all been a trait of the Camaro since 1967. The Second Gen was the worst IMO (although it is the best looking) and it also had the record amount of sales (1979).