[JamesNoBrakes]

Originally Posted by Casper the friendly G

What exactly was terrible about muscle cars?

Just about everything except straight line performance, which is now all about EVs anyway.

The thing is, enthusiast cars are dying out because you need to buy so much crap these days, own a house, go to college, have a family with a bunch of kids, get a boat, a side by side, and all sorts of other stuff that leaves no room. So now the best you can do is an EV SUV that will out-accelerate any muscle car. It's what people are asking for in droves, because they have to have everything at once.

Many of us saw it as a revelation when GM started building enthusiast cars. Cars that had power AND handled well. And not just one “halo” car either. G8, SS, 2nd gen CTS-V, even CTS-V wagon, C6 Z06, 1LEs, C7s and now C8s, CT-5 BWs and all the like. This is what made GM stand out. Cars that were made with manual transmissions (well, most of them anyway).

Also, have you tracked (track, not strip) your 1LE? Its made to be run over and over again with no complaint. While that may not seem like much, go do the same to some of its peers and youll see the cracks starting to form (or outright failures). In this regard, its closer to Porsche, that makes cars that can be run on a track over and over again.

But yeah, with everything else that people "have to buy" these days, about the only thing they can go for is straight-line acceleration. You are number 1 EV customer. EVs are the ultimate muscle car and you are bring them on faster going for “muscle car” characteristics.

[Casper the friendly G]

Originally Posted by 302crossram

lose 400lbs and it could be one of the best cars in the world...

too heavy is my only beef

Sounds like you want a Honda Civic.

[jamala00]

Originally Posted by Casper the friendly G

The C8 Corvettes look like sh!t, and even sound like sh!t, but the Camaros look pretty good. Nice coke bottle fuselage. 16-18 grills and tail lamps look better than the 19 plus.

I think the C8's are beautiful looking cars in their own right. You can't look at them like American muscle, you have to compare them to the Italian cars. I still prefer the front engine cars so I'd get a C7. I do think the Camaro is a better looking car though then both the C7 & C8 for sure. I won't be getting rid of my Camaro for any Corvette anytime soon.

[Casper the friendly G]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I’ll try to add a little perspective to what you’re saying here.

GM did hand market share to Ford after the drop of Gen 4. But it wasn’t for lack of trying. Gen 4 had to be ended because the F-body platform was not capable of meeting CAFE and safety requirements that were being rolled out at the time. GM tried super hard to put Camaro on a different architecture but there simply wasn’t anything usable available at the time.

For the first part of this time period I led the Powertrain Planning department and we were responsible for working with Engineering to match powertrains to vehicles. Later I was part of the Portfolio Planning group that made the business cases to place specific vehicle programs on appropriate architectures, so in both cases I was right in the middle working with people focused on trying to revive Camaro. Bringing it back on Zeta platform was pretty much a moon shot led by Bob Lutz, Ed Welburn, and Tom Stephens (VP of Powertrain). Ed had his 1st Gen parked in the GM Design studios and gave his team direction to use it as inspiration to design 5th Gen.

GM was working hard on development of a Gen 7 right up until the strategic shift to all EV for passenger cars. I had left GM by this point in time but was still in touch with people familiar with the program, some of whom are active in this forum. The decline in sedans, coupes and convertibles combined with the move to EV effectively cut the lifeline for Camaro and a whole bunch of other cars. Most of them, including Camaro, are likely to come back in EV form eventually.

(me and Ed Welburn at an Automotive Hall of Fame event)

EVs ain't going nowhere fast. They are dying on the vine as we speak.

[Casper the friendly G]

Originally Posted by Realist

I personally think GM is terrible at marketing. If you have a decent truck product it will sell with limited marketing. With Covid and supply chain issues, they could have cut marketing costs in half for the past 3 years and still sold the same number of vehicles at the same profits. Let the car mags and YouTuber promote, all ya gotta do is supply the vehicles. Now Dodge I would say is good at marketing. Just look at all GM commercials, basically EV focused for the past 2 years and new vehicle announcements but none in the showrooms. Vette and pickups oh and maybe the low end EV. I like the style of many GMs but I feel they are leading from behind. Lots of products planned which could mean lots of roll out issues, delays and a workforce resistant to change that some manufacturers don’t have to deal with. With all the employees and vendors past and present, they do have a near automatic demand for their limited short supply EV’s and other products. Just my opinion of course.

Exactly! Marketing is a joke.

[Casper the friendly G]

Originally Posted by 90503

In hindsight, I think the true picture with the Camaro will come into view once they are gone with the wind and that likely isn't too far off...

The high-end muscle cars of the '60s and early '70s were all disparaged and unpopular right around the time they ended. No one really believed it would happen but it did. Who wouldn't love to go back in time and snatch up a few Hemi Cudas or any number of other classic muscle cars?

Now is the time to do the same with the hi-end, hi-optioned Camaros. Once they quit making them, it's game on. Might take a while, but not that long, before the miracle of the modern muscle cars and their styling is fully appreciated.

Kudos to all who made the 5th and 6th Gens possible. As much as they are criticized, they will eventually be looked back on as the best of them all. My $.02

They were unpopular because they price of gas was up, insurance was up and the high end muscle cars were expensive at the time. The low end and mid priced muscle cars were a more viable option. People still wanted muscle but govt. mandates and the fake gas crises put a cap on it.

[DaveC113]

ZL1s are the best looking for sure, except wheels... SS 1LE wheels are far better imo. OP should get a ZL1 front end and SLE wheels if it's such a big deal to him.

I bought the car mostly for it's performance, but I wish they made the car a little more practical as far as interior functionality and visibility. It's not bad, but the contrast with the M2 for example, is pretty huge and the M2 still looks really good.

[Alan47717]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

IMO the original 6th gen Camaro team did just that with the 2016-2018 design—it was still masculine and angled just enough to carry some of the heritage across while also being a modern sports car in terms of capabilities. The 2019 refresh messed up the original design language in the front and rear, now the car doesn't look consistent, it's half Honda Accord, half Camaro, except for the ZL1 where GM didn't even bother to redesign the front end. There clearly are people who like the redesign, but sales numbers haven't improved tangibly, and subjective tastes aside, the design inconsistency is undeniable, it's not a matter of personal preferences.

Just FYI, some ex-GM members, e.g. Number 3 religiously visit these topics to claim that visibility, small rear legroom/headroom and lack of trunk space are the reasons the Camaro is going away while the Mustang enjoys a 7th generation, which was originally caused by GM's mistake in listening to enthusiasts about the design instead of designing the car for mass market appeal and usability.

I'm not saying this has no merit, the car clearly has less everyday usability than the Challenger in the above areas, but it's also abundantly clear that GM hasn't given a rat's behind about the Camaro since late 2018 when the Camaro team was disbanded, all of the above shortcomings would've been easily fixable if they cared. Camaro powertrains haven't seen an iota of improvement either, adding the A10 to the SS is just a reconfiguration, and of course zero marketing/sales efforts have been expended, so low sales volumes are absolutely expected. (Interestingly, these latter points are never conceded by the same ex-GM employees, by the way.)

Um, ex-GM employee here, who has made no secret of my opinion that GM has utterly failed to keep this car alive with marketing, updates or any other way. GM's marketing department has always been the worst of the big three (with the occasional exception of Cadillac & Corvette). Anybody care to argue that point? Examples are aplenty.

That said, l love the styling of my 2022 1LT and I get nothing but positive comments from everyone I know as well as strangers. I don't use it as a DD so the visibility and access issues don't bother me. A faux sports car would have had zero interest to me.

[Smokin19]

After reading thru this thread with many insights I think it will come down to this ultimately. The buying public will determine the future of the automobile. Whether it's all EV, ICE or any variation. The cost, styling, ease of use and necessity will determine buyer interest. I believe we are headed to leasing vehicles not owning them in the future it just makes more sense. Go to the store pick one out bring it back in two years and get another. Tesla is already selling them thru stores like buying from Amazon. This change will be bring automobiles to strictly a form of transportation. The thrill we know today will not be there in the future.

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by Alan47717

Um, ex-GM employee here, who has made no secret of my opinion that GM has utterly failed to keep this car alive with marketing, updates or any other way. GM's marketing department has always been the worst of the big three (with the occasional exception of Cadillac & Corvette). Anybody care to argue that point? Examples are aplenty.

That said, l love the styling of my 2022 1LT and I get nothing but positive comments from everyone I know as well as strangers. I don't use it as a DD so the visibility and access issues don't bother me. A faux sports car would have had zero interest to me.

Lots of people argue it's not a "real sports car" because of it's size and that it has rear seats...

It has 99% useless rear seats, absurdly small trunk opening and front windows you can't get a helmet through. IMO, they could've mitigated those issues without a radical departure from the current design.

[LT1gen6]

For all those that believe GM is terrible at marketing, what exactly would you do differently? And, please describe some missed target audiences, and how you would reach and appeal to them.

As far as Gen 6, GM builds, and has built as many as they could sell. It's definitely a niche and enthusiast vehicle. Those who care about such things know.

[PizzzzzaForPresident]

Originally Posted by Casper the friendly G

Actually it bombed just like the Challenger was bombing until Dodge came out with a very aggressive ad campaign. The Challenger was bombing so bad they were planning to discontinue it.

That's pure nonsense. What year did this supposed ad campaign start? The first? Its sales were steadily increasing year over year from day one.

[LT1gen6]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I’ll try to add a little perspective to what you’re saying here.

Thanks for sharing your GM inside perspective, Mr. Martin. Your presence in this forum is appreciated and valued. Best wishes, sir!

[laynlo15]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

Lots of people argue it's not a "real sports car" because of it's size and that it has rear seats...

It has 99% useless rear seats, absurdly small trunk opening and front windows you can't get a helmet through. IMO, they could've mitigated those issues without a radical departure from the current design.

Back seat is good for my Helmet, Racing jacket and pants. Otherwise they could have just left it out. I take it out when drag racing since it weighs 28 lbs so easy to remove and I made my own seat delete for the track. Trunk is kinda small but I can still get almost all my golf clubs in except the driver and 3 wood. It's a great car overall but not perfect, good enough for me to have bought 2 Gen6s since 2016. I'm 71, so in the fall I'll be selling my 2022 Lt1 with Maggie and Toohighpsi Port Injection, someone will get a 9 second street car you can drive anywhere. Then I'm buying a new Caddy Ct4V-Blackwing, drove one a few weeks back and loved it. It has a small back seat and trunk, maybe I just like those small areas.