[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Gen6cyl

They definitely should not get a tax break if not built in the us. Scotty Killer has done a review on the way stang mach e it is built in Mexico.

So here is the issue. If the government wants EVs to, you know, stop the climate crisis, then why does it matter if it’s US made or Union made? Hmmmmmm, maybe the climate crisis isn’t quite THAT bad.

E Blazer is also going to be made in Mexico if I recall correctly.

[Need4Camaro]

My opinion is this is all just a form of control to manipulate people into spending money that profits them in some way or another. Probably in Lithium. It’s also a way to reduce the amount of people driving and reduce the amount of distance Americans can drive from their home. They’re always coming up with faster EV’s but they want us to adjust our behavior before they improve range unless you get a very expensive model.

EV’s are also not environmentally friendly. The finished product may produce zero emission but no one is going into a great detail as to how much energy it requires to mine and refine lithium, nor the toxic sludge it leaves behind, and how much Co2 it produces to create a battery where an EV just starting its life is already 4 - 5 years AHEAD of an ICE vehicle in Co2 output, not including a fact that most of our electricity still comes from fossil fuels, and while they are more efficient vehicles, they are starting so far ahead in the Co2 curve that it takes almost a decade for them to balance out in Co2 output…

What’s even funnier is these morons reduced our oil production and sent it all offshore where there are even less environmental restrictions to produce the same barrel of oil … and we get the honor to pay more for even more polluting oil while calling ourselves green. If you want an EV because the power curve and the immediate acceleration that’s one thing… but don’t buy one thinking that you’re better than the rest of society and saving the earth.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by Number 3

It needs to win with the consumer and I am concerned that the OEMs that are going “ all in” are complaining they aren’t getting the $7500 on their products. Hint, hey Mary, shouldn’t have gone all in if you needed government tax breaks to make it work. Not a stock holder but if I were, WTF?

Part of me feels like GM leadership was just watching the Tesla stock and brand take off and they woke up one morning and said we are going "All-in baby" on EVs. It's like they suddenly forgot they had an ICE business to run and transition and forgot they will be battery constrained for years and prices will need to remain high until they can get to higher scale.

They also have to prove themselves. Look at the new Toyota BEV, you would expect high quality and reliability when you think Toyota. The damn wheels are falling off their new EV, and they don't know why yet!!!! So, they are offering to buy back all the BEVs they sold since you can't drive a car where the wheels might fall off. You can't make this shit up.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/othe...8e13e3ad63cf04

[ChevyRules]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

Part of me feels like GM leadership was just watching the Tesla stock and brand take off and they woke up one morning and said we are going "All-in baby" on EVs. It's like they suddenly forgot they had an ICE business to run and transition and forgot they will be battery constrained for years and prices will need to remain high until they can get to higher scale.

They also have to prove themselves. Look at the new Toyota BEV, you would expect high quality and reliability when you think Toyota. The damn wheels are falling off their new EV, and they don't know why yet!!!! So, they are offering to buy back all the BEVs they sold since you can't drive a car where the wheels might fall off. You can't make this shit up.

It certainly feels the legacy automakers are rushing into the EV world without doing their homework.

At least the actual product that GM puts out are decent. The Bolt is not that bad of a car given the price. It’s an EV limited to be a commuter vehicle and the battery recall certainly didn’t help, but it’s a decent product still. The Lyriq and Blazer EV appear to be well designed too. We shall see how the Equinox EV turns out. I’m curious to see how that $30,000 model will equipped.

Ford definitely has a feeling of slapped an EV quickly together with the Mach E. With its thermal management system, the horrendous charging curve, and the GT’s performance throttling, it just doesn’t seem like it was a thoughtfully designed EV. Though I’m definitely curious to see how the Hummer EV fares as well in the performance category. Can it only do a quick sprint at full power before cutting power drastically?

Toyota is the furthest behind the eight ball betting the wrong way.

Hyundai and VW appear to be the best Tesla alternative at the moment with GM in the on deck circle.

And I want there to be a Tesla alternative. I love the car, but the company needs to improve everywhere else. Service, customer service, etc etc. They need competition or they can continue to behave they currently are because it doesn’t matter since they have a backlog all the way to next summer.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by ChevyRules

It certainly feels the legacy automakers are rushing into the EV world without doing their homework.

At least the actual product that GM puts out are decent. The Bolt is not that bad of a car given the price. It’s an EV limited to be a commuter vehicle and the battery recall certainly didn’t help, but it’s a decent product still. The Lyriq and Blazer EV appear to be well designed too. We shall see how the Equinox EV turns out. I’m curious to see how that $30,000 model will equipped.

Ford definitely has a feeling of slapped an EV quickly together with the Mach E. With its thermal management system, the horrendous charging curve, and the GT’s performance throttling, it just doesn’t seem like it was a thoughtfully designed EV. Though I’m definitely curious to see how the Hummer EV fares as well in the performance category. Can it only do a quick sprint at full power before cutting power drastically?

Toyota is the furthest behind the eight ball betting the wrong way.

Hyundai and VW appear to be the best Tesla alternative at the moment with GM in the on deck circle.

And I want there to be a Tesla alternative. I love the car, but the company needs to improve everywhere else. Service, customer service, etc etc. They need competition or they can continue to behave they currently are because it doesn’t matter since they have a backlog all the way to next summer.

Agreed. Toyota has been doing all the collaborations as well lately, which can help reduce cost but puts the brand reliability at risk.

[AZCamaroFan]

Originally Posted by Slippy

The tax breaks and accounting allowed in the oil industry is pretty wild if you get a chance to read into it. The oil industry and market would be different if the government stayed out of it, I think it’s an equal knock on both ICE and EV.

This bill lists specific examples:
https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-...ouse-bill/2184

yes, remarkable how many americans don't know that. can't imagine why.

[Slippy]

Originally Posted by AZCamaroFan

yes, remarkable how many americans don't know that. can't imagine why.

I think too many get their news from Facebook or another echo chamber and struggle to separate political feelings from fact.

[Aragorn]

Originally Posted by Need4Camaro

What’s even funnier is these morons reduced our oil production and sent it all offshore where there are even less environmental restrictions to produce the same barrel of oil … and we get the honor to pay more for even more polluting oil while calling ourselves green. If you want an EV because the power curve and the immediate acceleration that’s one thing… but don’t buy one thinking that you’re better than the rest of society and saving the earth.

So we reduced production in 2020 during the pandemic recession, in an effort to raise prices a bit. Since 2021 however we’ve been the worlds number one producer and are on pace to do it again this year.

[Wyzz Kydd]

Originally Posted by AZCamaroFan

yes, remarkable how many americans don't know that. can't imagine why.

You do understand that every item mentioned in that bill deals with tax deductions and credits? It’s all about tax codes that let oil companies KEEP more of THEIR money. This is a subsidy? I don’t think so.

The government cuts checks for EV production. $3.1 billion this year. That’s not decreasing their taxes 3.1billion, that’s writing checks for that amount with taxpayers money.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2022/05/02/...acturing-.html

That’s a subsidy.

[Gen6cyl]

[Alan47717]

Originally Posted by Wyzz Kydd

You do understand that every item mentioned in that bill deals with tax deductions and credits? It’s all about tax codes that let oil companies KEEP more of THEIR money. This is a subsidy? I don’t think so.

The government cuts checks for EV production. $3.1 billion this year. That’s not decreasing their taxes 3.1billion, that’s writing checks for that amount with taxpayers money.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2022/05/02/...acturing-.html

That’s a subsidy.

The government lets a company keep XX amount of money they would have owed in taxes with credits, deductions, etc.

The government writes a check to a company for XX amount of money.

Absolutely no difference. Both are subsidizing a company to accomplish something some political faction is interested in.

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by Alan47717

The government lets a company keep XX amount of money they would have owed in taxes with credits, deductions, etc.

The government writes a check to a company for XX amount of money.

Absolutely no difference. Both are subsidizing a company to accomplish something some political faction is interested in.

The government lets a company keep x amount of money -> the company keeps x of the money voluntarily given it by its own customers

The government writes a check to a company for x amount of money -> the company gets x amount of money force collected from everyone, regardless of the company's performance or customer base

Not exactly the same.

[Wyzz Kydd]

Originally Posted by Alan47717

The government lets a company keep XX amount of money they would have owed in taxes with credits, deductions, etc.

The government writes a check to a company for XX amount of money.

Absolutely no difference. Both are subsidizing a company to accomplish something some political faction is interested in.

[cooldawg]

No difference between a company keeping more of their revenue vs. incentivizing a purchase with a tax credit/ check?

Big difference. In one case, taxpayers are cutting a check to a guy that wants to purchase an EV. In the other, the company is allowed to keep a larger portion of revenue it generated. Hopefully, some of that $$ is invested in IR&D and grows the payroll.

Why not just reduce tax on revenue in both cases? The answer is obvious. EPA wants to pick the winner. Cut a check for one customer, and levy a gas guzzler tax on the other.