[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by Punisher2050

Only way to correct orange peal is remove the clear coat, respray or like you said wet sand,


I just cant get over the cost though and yes, it is extremely labor intensive...man I'm in the wrong business for sure

I had my car polished after I first got it, I asked about orange peel and yeah, you'll be wet sanding most of the clear coat off and it'll cost a fortune. Definitely not worth it, imo. Polish cost me a little over $100, looked great after.

Also, I don't get ceramic since now you can get long lasting silicone treatments built into the wash or wipe-on/spray off. Much easier and cheaper.

[Spaceme1117]

Never heard of color correction but paint correction is a real thing.

Paint correction can involve several different techniques for a car. Everything from paint touch up, wet sanding the clear coat, polishing, etc. A good detailer will know what method to use depending on the paint condition on different parts of the car.

And clear coat is considered to be part of the paint.

[jamala00]

Have any of you guys tried this stuff yet? 303 Graphene Nano Spray

[KaMaRow]

actually my issue isn't the terminology its the price and the ceramic itself.

1 most people have this done to brand new cars. obviously there isn't much work to be done on brand new paint.

2.they clay it maybe polish a bit and then it literally take about 5 mins to put ceramic on a car. most of these people are "correcting paint" on new cars that require very little work turning it over in a day and charging outrageous amounts for using about 100 dollars worth of product.

3. Have worked years with automotive paint. I paint machines for trade shows that have to be mirror perfect and I can tell you what these "detail shops" do is not Paint correction. If anything a more accurate term would be clear coat cleaning. Because all they are really doing is making sure the surface is clean so the snake oil ceramic will stick.

Paint correction, ceramic, graphene ... all just marketing buzz words until the next buzz worthy thing comes along ( moon dust maybe lol). Honestly any synthetic wax like Maguires NXT or the like or even Nu Finish will accomplish the same thing for a 20 dollar bottle. Hell if you can find it Liquid glass in the tin can ( ask your grandfather) they been selling for 40 plus years will make any "ceramic" coat look like a cheap wall mart product.

When you pay for different tiers of ceramic all you are really paying for is how many times they are willing to recoat it with the same 50 dollar bottle. The more you pay the more times they will recoat it over the period of the "warranty". paying more does not get you a better product or a longer lasting product all its buying it a reapplication "warranty". I have many friends in the detail business. Trust me save your money and just put on a good synthetic wax. 2, 3 or even 4K is better spend elsewhere.

[Punisher2050]

Originally Posted by KaMaRow

actually my issue isn't the terminology its the price and the ceramic itself.

1 most people have this done to brand new cars. obviously there isn't much work to be done on brand new paint.

2.they clay it maybe polish a bit and then it literally take about 5 mins to put ceramic on a car. most of these people are "correcting paint" on new cars that require very little work turning it over in a day and charging outrageous amounts for using about 100 dollars worth of product.

3. Have worked years with automotive paint. I paint machines for trade shows that have to be mirror perfect and I can tell you what these "detail shops" do is not Paint correction. If anything a more accurate term would be clear coat cleaning. Because all they are really doing is making sure the surface is clean so the snake oil ceramic will stick.

Paint correction, ceramic, graphene ... all just marketing buzz words until the next buzz worthy thing comes along ( moon dust maybe lol). Honestly any synthetic wax like Maguires NXT or the like or even Nu Finish will accomplish the same thing for a 20 dollar bottle. Hell if you can find it Liquid glass in the tin can ( ask your grandfather) they been selling for 40 plus years will make any "ceramic" coat look like a cheap wall mart product.

When you pay for different tiers of ceramic all you are really paying for is how many times they are willing to recoat it with the same 50 dollar bottle. The more you pay the more times they will recoat it over the period of the "warranty". paying more does not get you a better product or a longer lasting product all its buying it a reapplication "warranty". I have many friends in the detail business. Trust me save your money and just put on a good synthetic wax. 2, 3 or even 4K is better spend elsewhere.

You nailed exactly what I think about all this. They are ripping off consumers who buy into the Buzz Words and charge $1000's

Only way to "correct" paint is to sand the clear coat and then wet sand or repaint... what they are selling is bogus.

Now, he whole Ceramic Coating crazy is just another gimmic and I remember when spray on wax was the buzz word of the day.

I appreciate your feedback and it's time people stop spending their hard earned money?

[Ultimateone]

Wait do people think that ceramic coating doesn't work? Because it obviously does but yes it is expensive.

[ember1205]

Originally Posted by KaMaRow

actually my issue isn't the terminology its the price and the ceramic itself.

1 most people have this done to brand new cars. obviously there isn't much work to be done on brand new paint.

2.they clay it maybe polish a bit and then it literally take about 5 mins to put ceramic on a car. most of these people are "correcting paint" on new cars that require very little work turning it over in a day and charging outrageous amounts for using about 100 dollars worth of product.

3. Have worked years with automotive paint. I paint machines for trade shows that have to be mirror perfect and I can tell you what these "detail shops" do is not Paint correction. If anything a more accurate term would be clear coat cleaning. Because all they are really doing is making sure the surface is clean so the snake oil ceramic will stick.

Paint correction, ceramic, graphene ... all just marketing buzz words until the next buzz worthy thing comes along ( moon dust maybe lol). Honestly any synthetic wax like Maguires NXT or the like or even Nu Finish will accomplish the same thing for a 20 dollar bottle. Hell if you can find it Liquid glass in the tin can ( ask your grandfather) they been selling for 40 plus years will make any "ceramic" coat look like a cheap wall mart product.

When you pay for different tiers of ceramic all you are really paying for is how many times they are willing to recoat it with the same 50 dollar bottle. The more you pay the more times they will recoat it over the period of the "warranty". paying more does not get you a better product or a longer lasting product all its buying it a reapplication "warranty". I have many friends in the detail business. Trust me save your money and just put on a good synthetic wax. 2, 3 or even 4K is better spend elsewhere.

Paint from the factory is applied robotically. Then it is coated in clear coat. There are PLENTY of threads on here alone about issues actually in the paint itself (below the clear coat) where the robot either didn't correctly paint or there are contaminants that made their way in prior to clear. There is pretty much nothing that can be done to fix issues that are actually in the paint itself short of completely repainting the entire panel and that's a giant mess of its own.

Clear coat is a very different story. While the application process is pretty much the same as the paint, it's a different material and will coat and dry differently. It will also dry to a different sort of 'texture' than the paint itself will. One of the big things that clear does is to hide many of the very small imperfections in the coat of paint underneath, but it can (and does) have many imperfections of its own.

Once clear coat is dried, it gets wet sanded to smooth it out and then polished. This is predominantly done by robots in a prescribed manner that results in the finish on the vehicles being "just about good enough" or actually "good enough" for consumers. Polishing will shine it up and make it acceptable from there. There are still some issues that may persist (high spots, fine scratches that won't easily polish out, heavy orange peel, etc.). These are supposed to be identified by inspection and then manually "spot sanded" to bring them in line with the rest of the vehicle prior to polish.

At the end of it all, before the vehicle is loaded onto multiple trucks and/or rail cars and carted halfway across the country, the paint is supposed to be "acceptable."

The process of paint correction (which is actually more technically correction of the clear coat) has the potential to be extremely labor and time intensive because the WHOLE vehicle has to be gone over at a very close level of detail. Look VERY closely at your car and you will see small pits, fine scratches, swirls, inconsistency in the orange peel, etc. across your whole paint job. "Correcting" all of that means getting everything to just about the exact same level of consistency not just within a panel, but from one to the next. Combine that end focus with the fact that there is a very minimal amount of clear coat to work with and it should become clear that it takes a very long time and a fair amount of skill to do it right.

I've spent time doing some fine polishing of the paint on my car in certain areas to only make it marginally better. I've shored it up a bit further with some wipe-on coatings that give a bit more shine, but that -mostly- just helps hide the imperfections in the first place. When the car comes out of storage this year, I am going to be seeking out a shop to do a full correction on it and then coat the car (likely ceramic) to make ongoing maintenance of the finish simpler going forward.

The short story here is that factory paint jobs are "ok", nothing more. They're good enough to make 99% of the public happy, but there is still more that can be done to fine tune the overall paint job without having to repaint anything. Put two identical vehicles side-by-side with the same paint jobs and color. Have paint correction and polishing done to one, DIY polish the other. The difference will be pretty easy to see.

[GXP08jrf]

As someone else mentioned, what's a term(s) you'd suggest?

When my car had several etchings from bird droppings, no amount of over the counter chemicals would improve the appearance. So I got an orbital "correcting cream" and some pads, and got after the etchings (polished & waxed after). This just made the etch shine more. Took it to a neighbor who had more knowledge on paint as he had worked at body shops previously and had better tools, he took a more aggressive cut to it and fine sand paper (followed by polish and wax again). Etches were minimized, but still very visible at select viewing angles. He sent me to his buddy, who had more up-to-date training on paints. Another attack with a cutting polish, 2-3 different grits of wet sand paper and the etching was barely perceptible. I took it home, polished the panel and waxed it. To this day I still really need to search where the damage was, but it took effort to get it to that point, and who knows how much clear is actually left in that area

I don't know what to call this process other than "paint correction." The car wasn't refinished or repainted. The color was unaffected. The existing paint had the etch mostly removed through a process and a series of abrasives followed by topical, perishable coatings. I'm sure people use the term to sell a $50 detail for $1500. but that doesn't mean the term "paint correction" is the problem.

[Punisher2050]

Originally Posted by GXP08jrf

As someone else mentioned, what's a term(s) you'd suggest?

When my car had several etchings from bird droppings, no amount of over the counter chemicals would improve the appearance. So I got an orbital "correcting cream" and some pads, and got after the etchings (polished & waxed after). This just made the etch shine more. Took it to a neighbor who had more knowledge on paint as he had worked at body shops previously and had better tools, he took a more aggressive cut to it and fine sand paper (followed by polish and wax again). Etches were minimized, but still very visible at select viewing angles. He sent me to his buddy, who had more up-to-date training on paints. Another attack with a cutting polish, 2-3 different grits of wet sand paper and the etching was barely perceptible. I took it home, polished the panel and waxed it. To this day I still really need to search where the damage was, but it took effort to get it to that point, and who knows how much clear is actually left in that area

I don't know what to call this process other than "paint correction." The car wasn't refinished or repainted. The color was unaffected. The existing paint had the etch mostly removed through a process and a series of chemicals followed by topical, perishable coatings. I'm sure people use the term to sell a $50 detail for $1500. but that doesn't mean the term "paint correction" is the problem.

I get that, but what I am seeing are terms like Paint Correction or Color Correction from "detailers" and that is factually incorrect. Just buzz words to make it sound like they have the amazing process. Dont get me wrong, some high end detailers do an amazing job. But for the Average Joe...not buying it.

Also, there are other issues being looped into this discussion, mainly Repairs. That is totally different and different processes. We are just talking about Shine & Clear Coat, Ceramic Coating, detailing.

If your Clear Coat or Paint is damaged, all the buffing in the world wont correct it and waxing on/wax off Daniel' son aint gonna cut it !

Main issue here is $$Cost, application process to clear coat and the claims of Color Correction/Paint Correction.

[ember1205]

Originally Posted by Punisher2050

I get that, but what I am seeing are terms like Paint Correction or Color Correction from "detailers" and that is factually incorrect. Just buzz words to make it sound like they have the amazing process. Dont get me wrong, some high end detailers do an amazing job. But for the Average Joe...not buying it.

Also, there are other issues being looped into this discussion, mainly Repairs. That is totally different and different processes. We are just talking about Shine & Clear Coat, Ceramic Coating, detailing.

If your Clear Coat or Paint is damaged, all the buffing in the world wont correct it and waxing on/wax off Daniel' son aint gonna cut it !

Main issue here is $$Cost, application process to clear coat and the claims of Color Correction/Paint Correction.

I'm interested in knowing your grounds for claiming that their advertising of paint correction is incorrect. If they are taking cutting compounds and polishers to the clear coat and actually fixing the finish, they are 100% performing paint correction.

If you're stuck on the fact that they're working on the clear coat, which you personally don't consider "paint", you'll have an easier time convincing the world to stop saying "PIN Number" and "VIN Number" than you will that the term Paint Correction is wrong.

[Punisher2050]

Originally Posted by ember1205

I'm interested in knowing your grounds for claiming that their advertising of paint correction is incorrect. If they are taking cutting compounds and polishers to the clear coat and actually fixing the finish, they are 100% performing paint correction.

If you're stuck on the fact that they're working on the clear coat, which you personally don't consider "paint", you'll have an easier time convincing the world to stop saying "PIN Number" and "VIN Number" than you will that the term Paint Correction is wrong.

Clear Coat is just that - Protection coating "over the paint" it's never been "paint" in 57 years of being around race cars, family owned race team, hot rods, daily driver cars and part owners of a hot rod shop. Clear Coat is just that a coating ! You apply like paint sure, it's liquid like paint, sure ...but it's truly not paint, the product is meant to protect the paint.

Basic Paint 101 - 4 layers: E-coating, Primer, Paint, Clear Coat - paint correction means removing clear coating to get to the paint. Really dont have to say more from there, pretty obvious. If you have to repair or correct paint That is not detailing, that is paint correction !

I think youre missing the point of the discussion and dragging this across the coals...I'm talking about "Detailing" and what shops are selling Cost+ plus buzz words

[ember1205]

Originally Posted by Punisher2050

Clear Coat is just that - Protection coating "over the paint" it's never been "paint" in 57 years of being around race cars, family owned race team, hot rods, daily driver cars and part owners of a hot rod shop. Clear Coat is just that a coating ! You apply like paint sure, it's liquid like paint, sure ...but it's truly not paint, the product is meant to protect the paint.

Basic Paint 101 - 4 layers: E-coating, Primer, Paint, Clear Coat - paint correction means removing clear coating to get to the paint. Really dont have to say more from there, pretty obvious. If you have to repair or correct paint That is not detailing, that is paint correction !

I think youre missing the point of the discussion and dragging this across the coals...I'm talking about "Detailing" and what shops are selling Cost+ plus buzz words

I don't believe I'm missing anything... Your issue seems to be with detailers charging too much money, but their charges appear to be for labor-intensive work which is known in the industry as Paint Correction. It's an industry term, so it isn't going to change.

If they aren't actually DOING that work, or if they are someone changing that definition, then call that out. Otherwise, if they are doing what the industry defines that term as, then the costs are in line with the industry as well.

[dpevans]

I have heard it both ways and it really doesn't bother me either way. If you really wanted to be technically correct you would call it clear coat leveling. I have not seen a factory paint job without orange peel in the last 20 years, they all have orange peel and the factory does not wet sand orange peel they only touch up defects. Not sure why you would spend 4k plus to have your orange peel leveled and the only way to remove orange peel is to sand and level the highs out of the clear coat, that's what orange peel is highs and lows in the clear coat. I would never spend that kind of money for a daily driver or weekend cruiser. I detail all my cars and it takes me about 20-25 hours to do a full correction and keep in mind I don't do this for a living and I take my time. Wash, iron decon, wash, bug and tar removal, clay bar, wash, dry throughly, complete inspection and mark any areas needed more than swirl remover, 1st step correction in removing heavy defects, 2cd step do entire car with medium cut micro fiber pad, 3rd step polishing pad or light cutting pad with polishing compound. Use APC in between each step, then apply ceramic or graphene coating, and not some spray on junk. If I did this for a living i would charge no less than $1500 and for friends I won't do it if they won't supply labor and pay for materials.

[clyde]

Originally Posted by Punisher2050

I think youre missing the point of the discussion and dragging this across the coals...I'm talking about "Detailing" and what shops are selling Cost+ plus buzz words

Nah. Every third post so far in this thread is you telling everyone else they're wrong. It seems pretty clear that everyone else has picked up that the point of this thread was for you to complain that the rest of the world doesn't agree with your pedantic terminology (right or wrong) and that some people have the gall to charge for services they provide because you don't see the value in it.