[Evansa22]

I would agree sometimes numbers on paper don't line up with reality but these are just the test results I was able to find. I'd imagine the gt500 needs the extra space on the rotors to match or exceed the zl1 because of the extra weight of the vehicle. Haven't driven or ridden in a gt500 so I have no personal experience but it would be hard to surpass the eye popping stopping power of my ZLE. Didnt say it's impossible just would need to feel it personally

[L99BEN]

Originally Posted by Evansa22

I would agree sometimes numbers on paper don't line up with reality but these are just the test results I was able to find. I'd imagine the gt500 needs the extra space on the rotors to match or exceed the zl1 because of the extra weight of the vehicle. Haven't driven or ridden in a gt500 so I have no personal experience but it would be hard to surpass the eye popping stopping power of my ZLE. Didnt say it's impossible just would need to feel it personally

I am comparing the GT500 to the standard ZL1 not ZLE. I'd definitely use "eye popping" to describe the GT500 stopping power as well however.
It would also be more fair to compare the GT500 CFTP to the ZLE imo.

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by L99BEN

I am comparing the GT500 to the standard ZL1 not ZLE. I'd definitely use "eye popping" to describe the GT500 stopping power as well however.
It would also be more fair to compare the GT500 CFTP to the ZLE imo.

As long as you ignore the near double cost of a CFTP vs a ZLE...

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

As long as you ignore the near double cost of a CFTP vs a ZLE...

**eyepopping** indeed!

[Evansa22]

Originally Posted by L99BEN

I am comparing the GT500 to the standard ZL1 not ZLE. I'd definitely use "eye popping" to describe the GT500 stopping power as well however.
It would also be more fair to compare the GT500 CFTP to the ZLE imo.

Price wise its fair to compare the ZLE to the base GT500 imo. There's an easy $20k difference if not more between the CFTP and ZLE at msrp. Trim wise, sure you could compare the 2 top dogs. According to motortrend which i usually trust, gt500 and cftp are 100 ft and 94 ft. Zl1 and zle are 97 ft and 91 ft. Believe whatever you'd like, but sometimes perception is reality. It's possible it FEELS like it stops quicker and has better brakes, but the reality is different. Either way, enjoy your purchase. Both are fun, and extremely capable cars beyond my abilities.

[MakCamaro]

Very well said Evansa22. As you said, sometimes perception is reality. Perception and marketing.

[L99BEN]

Originally Posted by Evansa22

Price wise its fair to compare the ZLE to the base GT500 imo. There's an easy $20k difference if not more between the CFTP and ZLE at msrp. Trim wise, sure you could compare the 2 top dogs. According to motortrend which i usually trust, gt500 and cftp are 100 ft and 94 ft. Zl1 and zle are 97 ft and 91 ft. Believe whatever you'd like, but sometimes perception is reality. It's possible it FEELS like it stops quicker and has better brakes, but the reality is different. Either way, enjoy your purchase. Both are fun, and extremely capable cars beyond my abilities.

I've seen all the stats. It definitely feels that way which is what I care about, since I don't actually race my cars... 60-0 doesn't tell you everything about overall braking performance either.
The most impressive part about the braking in the GT500 is the braking power at high speeds (from 150-160mph) and the lack of brake fade no matter what I throw at it. I did not feel that way in the ZL1.
You need to drive the GT500 to see what I'm talking about.
Maybe Blaq can chime in once he's driven his.

[MakCamaro]

Originally Posted by Evansa22

I would agree sometimes numbers on paper don't line up with reality but these are just the test results I was able to find. I'd imagine the gt500 needs the extra space on the rotors to match or exceed the zl1 because of the extra weight of the vehicle. Haven't driven or ridden in a gt500 so I have no personal experience but it would be hard to surpass the eye popping stopping power of my ZLE. Didnt say it's impossible just would need to feel it personally

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

As long as you ignore the near double cost of a CFTP vs a ZLE...

Originally Posted by ST1LE

**eyepopping** indeed!

Originally Posted by Evansa22

Price wise its fair to compare the ZLE to the base GT500 imo. There's an easy $20k difference if not more between the CFTP and ZLE at msrp. Trim wise, sure you could compare the 2 top dogs. According to motortrend which i usually trust, gt500 and cftp are 100 ft and 94 ft. Zl1 and zle are 97 ft and 91 ft. Believe whatever you'd like, but sometimes perception is reality. It's possible it FEELS like it stops quicker and has better brakes, but the reality is different. Either way, enjoy your purchase. Both are fun, and extremely capable cars beyond my abilities.

I was also between the GT500 and the ZL1 after I sold my SS. I've driven both and I have chosen the ZL1. In fact the GT500 was sitting at the dealer ready to be collected, while I had to wait for 3+ months for my ZL1 to arrive from the US. Taking into consideration everything (performance, looks, feel, price) the ZL1 is the better choice. I know of another person who owned a GT500 and sold it for the ZL1 (the "simple" ZL1, not even the ZLE). I will paraphrase what Evansa22 said above: Perception (marketing) is reality

[Evansa22]

Originally Posted by L99BEN

I've seen all the stats. It definitely feels that way which is what I care about, since I don't actually race my cars... 60-0 doesn't tell you everything about overall braking performance either.
The most impressive part about the braking in the GT500 is the braking power at high speeds (from 150-160mph) and the lack of brake fade no matter what I throw at it. I did not feel that way in the ZL1.
You need to drive the GT500 to see what I'm talking about.
Maybe Blaq can chime in once he's driven his.

I find personal experience really valuable so I'm not discounting what you've shared. Just reporting the testing that I've found on the vehicles for comparison. Didn't look too hard to find other results such as 150-0 mph and like you said these stats may not tell the whole truth. However they did seem to beat on the cars and test braking performance very thoroughly. Take it for what its worth, just sharing info I've found

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by Evansa22

I find personal experience really valuable so I'm not discounting what you've shared. Just reporting the testing that I've found on the vehicles for comparison. Didn't look too hard to find other results such as 150-0 mph and like you said these stats may not tell the whole truth. However they did seem to beat on the cars and test braking performance very thoroughly. Take it for what its worth, just sharing info I've found

There's objective and subjective. Objectively, the ZL1 beats the base GT500 in every performance metric test except acceleration, and even then the GT500 is only quicker above about 65-70 mph. The ZL1 has a higher top speed, stops in shorter distances, has more grip, is quicker around Motortrend's figure 8 (the ZL1 is faster in the figure 8 than even the GT500 CFTP). ZL1 is quicker 30-50 and 50-70 when starting in auto mode (quicker response/downshifts with the A10), and it has more tech./goodies available or as standard, (e.g. PDR, heated/cooled/electric Recaros, Bose stereo standard, etc.). The ZL1 is 250 lbs lighter despite carrying 3 more gals of fuel and gets slightly better gas mileage. There's other little things like the ZL1 has forged wheels while the GT500 has flow formed, and the ZL1 has a better front/rear weight distribution, and the ZL1 has smaller overhangs due to the longer wheel base. Also, the ZLE and GT500 CFTP are neck in neck around a track, at Lightning lap the ZLE was actually slightly ahead of the GT500 CFTP in the middle of the last turn, however, the GT500 was able to pull away in the straight to achieve a slightly quicker lap time.

Also the chassis in the GT500 isn't even strong enough to offer a convertible, because it will likely twist and crack stuff as proven by the Shelby American Mustang convertible in a ThrottleHouse YT video. Despite the engine making a little less peak torque than the LT4.

Then there's the subjective portions, feel, etc., where some people tend to like the feel of the GT500 brake pedal, and the DCT, or the styling, looks, the Shelby name/lore, etc. I get that. Looks/feel are important. But so is value, and the ZL1 has the GT500 beat at the real market costs.

That said, for the money, I chose ZL1, but the GT500 is a still an awesome car, and by and large, those who have them love them. Not knocking them at all. But you get more for your money with a ZL1.

I think the subjective portions cause folks to "feel" like one car is performing better in certain aspects than the other. E.g. maybe it feels like the GT500 is braking harder because it is ~2" taller than a ZL1, and since the driver is sitting higher up, there's a roll forward movement that the driver feels from the seat, causing the driver to think it is stopping harder when it isn't. IIRC L99BEN may have posted previously about how the acceleration of his ZL1 was underwhelming (I may have the wrong person). I suspect he had air in the intercooler circuit, causing a lack of full power. A ZL1 accelerates as hard as a Hellcat through the quarter mile, and below 65 mph or so, as hard as a GT500, so it shouldn't feel lackluster.

[trz174]

Originally Posted by trz174

Here are my first time slips (#45). All were on launch control at various RPM settings.

Here's a video of two of these runs that someone posted. The launch control lag is painful to watch plus the Challenger hit a perfect tree.

https://youtu.be/X0Iz_9DLnbQ

[BlaqWhole]

I think these are all very good comments and it for sure has me excited to get my Shelby next weekend after a seemingly endless wait, lol!!

I think there is a lot of content that Evans and Idaho mentioned that is backed by data. I also think a few of the Shelby owners here might have more subjective outlooks based on what I have read. I will say that on paper the 6th Gen Camaro has always outperformed S550 Mustangs tier for tier/trim for trim and even at times has performed better when dipping into the next level tier/trim. Mustangs have underperformed on the same levels...but one thing that the Camaro fails to do is excite people and get that "special" feeling that the Mustangs tend to get. It annoys the heck outta me when a Mustang fan claims the GT350(R) or GT500 "FEELS" special. But after soo many years of hearing and reading these statements, one has to wonder if there is something palpable there that us 6th Gen Camaro fans can't quite grasp. For example, when the first test drives of the GT500 hit, remember how the writers were writing in all caps about how fast the GT500 is and how it is a rocket and this and that? Yet when side by side with the ZL1, it certainly didn't quite exactly roast the Z like one would have imagined.

That brings up my point that perhaps the GT500 just simply feels like it is stopping better, accelerating much faster, etc. I mean, remember, there was a time when the 18 GT arrived and many of the Mustang fans thought it alone could beat ZL1s, C7 Z06s, and Hellcats stock for stock. Idaho, back then you gave us a lot of useful info on how with the weight difference, gearing, etc, the GT might be able to accelerate well enough to keep up with a ZL1 in a specific MPH range even if for just a short time before the ZL1's brute power takes over. And if might be the same but reverse for the ZL1 and GT500 now. Maybe due to the extra gears, instant torque of the OHV engine, less weight, etc, the ZL1 is keeping up with the GT500 until brute force kicks the door in. This is all interesting info to pick at.

ANother thing along the line of brakes...perhaps the GT500 feels like it is braking good, but is that braking gonna fade after soo many miles or laps and once heat soak gets involved? At that point you have a very fast, very powerful, very heavy, GT500 coming at full speed on some very heated brakes. Can it hold up as well as the ZL1 has been proven to? We saw how badly the PP2 GT did after just 1 lap on a track. It kept up with the SLE pretty well...but only for one lap. If the GT500 is the same then it doesn't matter how spectacular the brakes are for that one lap when you get to the second lap.

My biggest concern is not really performance related. I do think the GT500 will be a killer in performance even if it doesn't quite add up to the ZL1/ZLE...I mean we all know Ford had some big shoes to fill in a short time and they did kinda fall short. But the car is for sure up there with the ZL1/ZLE, C7 Z06, HC RE, and others on that level. Again tho, I just get worried about all the problems and issues I keep reading about. It seems like every few days I read about some new thing or something that is by now a common issue. I see stories about people having to drop them off at the dealership to have warranty work done and it takes several weeks. And there seems to be a never ending list of issues. So I'm going into this with my fingers crossed and hoping I'll get one that won't end up at the dealership waiting to get repairs done. We'll just have to wait and see. But overall I am looking forward to getting this thing and writing a full review on it!!

[LesserO2Evils]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

There's objective and subjective. Objectively, the ZL1 beats the base GT500 in every performance metric test except acceleration, and even then the GT500 is only quicker above about 65-70 mph. The ZL1 has a higher top speed, stops in shorter distances, has more grip, is quicker around Motortrend's figure 8 (the ZL1 is faster in the figure 8 than even the GT500 CFTP). ZL1 is quicker 30-50 and 50-70 when starting in auto mode (quicker response/downshifts with the A10), and it has more tech./goodies available or as standard, (e.g. PDR, heated/cooled/electric Recaros, Bose stereo standard, etc.). The ZL1 is 250 lbs lighter despite carrying 3 more gals of fuel and gets slightly better gas mileage. There's other little things like the ZL1 has forged wheels while the GT500 has flow formed, and the ZL1 has a better front/rear weight distribution, and the ZL1 has smaller overhangs due to the longer wheel base. Also, the ZLE and GT500 CFTP are neck in neck around a track, at Lightning lap the ZLE was actually slightly ahead of the GT500 CFTP in the middle of the last turn, however, the GT500 was able to pull away in the straight to achieve a slightly quicker lap time.

Also the chassis in the GT500 isn't even strong enough to offer a convertible, because it will likely twist and crack stuff as proven by the Shelby American Mustang convertible in a ThrottleHouse YT video. Despite the engine making a little less peak torque than the LT4.

Then there's the subjective portions, feel, etc., where some people tend to like the feel of the GT500 brake pedal, and the DCT, or the styling, looks, the Shelby name/lore, etc. I get that. Looks/feel are important. But so is value, and the ZL1 has the GT500 beat at the real market costs.

That said, for the money, I chose ZL1, but the GT500 is a still an awesome car, and by and large, those who have them love them. Not knocking them at all. But you get more for your money with a ZL1.

I think the subjective portions cause folks to "feel" like one car is performing better in certain aspects than the other. E.g. maybe it feels like the GT500 is braking harder because it is ~2" taller than a ZL1, and since the driver is sitting higher up, there's a roll forward movement that the driver feels from the seat, causing the driver to think it is stopping harder when it isn't. IIRC L99BEN may have posted previously about how the acceleration of his ZL1 was underwhelming (I may have the wrong person). I suspect he had air in the intercooler circuit, causing a lack of full power. A ZL1 accelerates as hard as a Hellcat through the quarter mile, and below 65 mph or so, as hard as a GT500, so it shouldn't feel lackluster.

Annnnnnnnd…. This just said it all.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I think these are all very good comments and it for sure has me excited to get my Shelby next weekend after a seemingly endless wait, lol!!

I think there is a lot of content that Evans and Idaho mentioned that is backed by data. I also think a few of the Shelby owners here might have more subjective outlooks based on what I have read. I will say that on paper the 6th Gen Camaro has always outperformed S550 Mustangs tier for tier/trim for trim and even at times has performed better when dipping into the next level tier/trim. Mustangs have underperformed on the same levels...but one thing that the Camaro fails to do is excite people and get that "special" feeling that the Mustangs tend to get. It annoys the heck outta me when a Mustang fan claims the GT350(R) or GT500 "FEELS" special. But after soo many years of hearing and reading these statements, one has to wonder if there is something palpable there that us 6th Gen Camaro fans can't quite grasp. For example, when the first test drives of the GT500 hit, remember how the writers were writing in all caps about how fast the GT500 is and how it is a rocket and this and that? Yet when side by side with the ZL1, it certainly didn't quite exactly roast the Z like one would have imagined.

That brings up my point that perhaps the GT500 just simply feels like it is stopping better, accelerating much faster, etc. I mean, remember, there was a time when the 18 GT arrived and many of the Mustang fans thought it alone could beat ZL1s, C7 Z06s, and Hellcats stock for stock. Idaho, back then you gave us a lot of useful info on how with the weight difference, gearing, etc, the GT might be able to accelerate well enough to keep up with a ZL1 in a specific MPH range even if for just a short time before the ZL1's brute power takes over. And if might be the same but reverse for the ZL1 and GT500 now. Maybe due to the extra gears, instant torque of the OHV engine, less weight, etc, the ZL1 is keeping up with the GT500 until brute force kicks the door in. This is all interesting info to pick at.

ANother thing along the line of brakes...perhaps the GT500 feels like it is braking good, but is that braking gonna fade after soo many miles or laps and once heat soak gets involved? At that point you have a very fast, very powerful, very heavy, GT500 coming at full speed on some very heated brakes. Can it hold up as well as the ZL1 has been proven to? We saw how badly the PP2 GT did after just 1 lap on a track. It kept up with the SLE pretty well...but only for one lap. If the GT500 is the same then it doesn't matter how spectacular the brakes are for that one lap when you get to the second lap.

My biggest concern is not really performance related. I do think the GT500 will be a killer in performance even if it doesn't quite add up to the ZL1/ZLE...I mean we all know Ford had some big shoes to fill in a short time and they did kinda fall short. But the car is for sure up there with the ZL1/ZLE, C7 Z06, HC RE, and others on that level. Again tho, I just get worried about all the problems and issues I keep reading about. It seems like every few days I read about some new thing or something that is by now a common issue. I see stories about people having to drop them off at the dealership to have warranty work done and it takes several weeks. And there seems to be a never ending list of issues. So I'm going into this with my fingers crossed and hoping I'll get one that won't end up at the dealership waiting to get repairs done. We'll just have to wait and see. But overall I am looking forward to getting this thing and writing a full review on it!!

I have no doubt the GT500 is a great performance vehicle. I don't think those massive 16.5" brakes fade. They are about an inch larger than the ZL1's, and probably dissipate a lot of heat.

I also like your points about the "excitement" or "specialness". I think Ford's done really well with the Shelby name. It has history and lore that people love - and the GT500 also seems to come out in response to the ZL1 and make more power than the competing ZL1 (at least in the last decade since Chevy reintroduced the ZL1 trim). Regarding the Camaro, car people and casual car folks know about the ZL1. Mine gets comments all the time. A guy next to me at a traffic light yesterday in a S550 Mustang GT said "Woah...nice ZL1, those things go hard!!" with a big goofy smile.

You also bring up some good points regarding the gearing. I think an A10 ZL1 has a gearing (and weight distribution) advantage in the lower speeds, which allows it to keep up with the GT500 until half way through 3rd gear in the ZL1, in which the GT500 is still in 2nd gear, and finally able to put more torque to the rear wheels than the ZL1 as torque in 3rd gear starts to trail off. It's interesting to look at the torque to rear wheels analysis of the two cars, which I've done many times. One can see the low speed advantages the ZL1 has when reviewing that data.

At high speeds the ZL1 loses the gearing advantage and the GT500's extra 110 hp takes over.