[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by TXCSSU

I had an interesting little cruise this afternoon which really emphasizes the discussion in here. First half of my drive was on a toll road, and I found myself pinned behind traffic. I kept having to anticipate how I traversed traffic, and that meant having to make sure I was in the appropriate gear. I had one instance where I was glad that I was in the right gear as an SUV tried to get into a lane that I was merging into. He almost side swiped me trying to get into the lane after I was already 3/4ths in.

Second half of my drive was pretty much a letdown. Got into the lane I needed to be in at a stop light (far right), a Tesla pulled into the middle lane. I anticipated that he either needed to be in my lane or the far left lane, which merges onto a highway. Either way, I figured he was going to gun it so I thought I'd follow suit. Light went green, and sure enough I bogged the takeoff. He jumped 1 car length ahead of me, but was trying to overtake the car on the left. I probably also had wheel hop and traction control intervene, which made it that much more disappointing. I'm sure an automatic would've been more competitive, but then I might as well get an EV which has only one forward gear.

Yeah, the Tesla launch is very consistent, no skill involved, they make any driver a 0-60mph hero. The A10 will help a bit but the issue is not enough tire grip in our cars. I can get 3.6-3.7 sec 0-60mph times but if we could get all the power to the ground I am sure we be in the low 3s. If it was a Tesla Model 3 Dual Motor or Performance once you hit around 60-70mph you will blow right by them as they fall flat after 60mph or so. That is the penalty of the single gear. If it is a Model S Plaid just forget it because that car has a flat torque curve to about 150mph. But it will be the most boring 9 second 1/4 mile run you ever experience.

By the way, just came back from a drive myself and a Shelby GT350 pulled up next to me at about 70mph. He took off and I caught and passed him pretty easily. These ZL1s are beasts.

[TXCSSU]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

Yeah, the Tesla launch is very consistent, no skill involved, they make any driver a 0-60mph hero. The A10 will help a bit but the issue is not enough tire grip in our cars. I can get 3.6-3.7 sec 0-60mph times but if we could get all the power to the ground I am sure we be in the low 3s. If it was a Tesla Model 3 Dual Motor or Performance once you hit around 60-70mph you will blow right by them as they fall flat after 60mph or so. That is the penalty of the single gear. If it is a Model S Plaid just forget it because that car has a flat torque curve to about 150mph. But it will be the most boring 9 second 1/4 mile run you ever experience.

By the way, just came back from a drive myself and a Shelby GT350 pulled up next to me at about 70mph. He took off and I caught and passed him pretty easily. These ZL1s are beasts.

lol, yeah I am enjoying the 650 HP. What's weird is that the 450-ish HP I had in my SS Sedan (a few bolt-ons) felt a little quicker. I wonder if it's because the SS Sedan had just enough HP and weight to allow it to hook up a little easier. I would love to see an ICE with a bit linear HP/TQ curve like an electric, just to see how it would stack up against an EV. Of course, we all love peak HP/TQ numbers, but you still have to make use of all that power.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by TXCSSU

lol, yeah I am enjoying the 650 HP. What's weird is that the 450-ish HP I had in my SS Sedan (a few bolt-ons) felt a little quicker. I wonder if it's because the SS Sedan had just enough HP and weight to allow it to hook up a little easier. I would love to see an ICE with a bit linear HP/TQ curve like an electric, just to see how it would stack up against an EV. Of course, we all love peak HP/TQ numbers, but you still have to make use of all that power.

So, the ZL1 hides its speed very well. That's what happens when you have such a good chassis. This car is very comfortable at triple digits. A Miata at 50mph feels like 80mph. The ZL1 at 100mph feels like 70mph.
I think part of what you are feeling is the tall gearing as well but the ZL1 would just annihilate the tires even worse if it had the shorter gearing of the SS. In the A10 I have to feather it quite a bit as it winds out 1st then it starts spinning again at the top of 2nd and gets a little squirrely but after that it tracks very good and acceleration is brutal as it rips through 3rd, 4th and 5th gear. IMO, the fact that you can overwhelm the tires and chassis is what makes these cars so much fun. EVs are on nanny overload and you can't really get them loose at all. What a waste of all that instant torque.

As for the Tesla and probably most performance based EVs, the traction control systems are very different. I am always shocked at how well our Tesla can launch and put power down with Prius Eco tires. In ICE based vehicles there is a lot of lag time with the traction control systems vs. EVs. In ICE based TC systems, once the system senses a specific amount of tire slip it has to signal the ECU, the ECU in turn pulls timing, reduces power until no more slip, tells ECU to add timing, add power, rinse repeat. This process is like comparing analog to digital if you see how it works on an EV.

With EVs, the ECU is communicating with the drive unit directly so it is like a super fast on/off switch from a traction control perspective. It is kind of like comparing a human pumping the brakes vs. an ABS system pulsating the brakes much more rapidly than a human can do it. As a result the EV can get much more grip out of crappy tires. Then factor in the dual motor versions of the Tesla Model 3s. The rear drive unit does like 90% of the acceleration as the weight transfers and then the front motor kicks in under hard acceleration. When just cruising you mainly use the rear motor to save energy.

The direct control over the drive units is what makes these EVs so consistent and less fun to drive at the same time. I remember when I first drove my Tesla Model 3 Performance. I was like, there is no chance of anyone beating this car off the line to about 60mph, unless it was another Tesla or some type of exotic Hybrid or something. Anyway, it is so good at being quick down low with no drama that it becomes boring. This is the fear I have for future performance EVs. I am curious if there will be much that can be done to overcome the lack of noise, vibration, tire spin, shifting, etc. How will a Dodge emusclecar be anymore "fun" to drive than a Hellcat? I think a lightweight Miata EV convertible would have a better chance at being fun.

[jvandy50]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

So, the ZL1 hides its speed very well. That's what happens when you have such a good chassis. This car is very comfortable at triple digits. A Miata at 50mph feels like 80mph. The ZL1 at 100mph feels like 70mph.
I think part of what you are feeling is the tall gearing as well but the ZL1 would just annihilate the tires even worse if it had the shorter gearing of the SS. In the A10 I have to feather it quite a bit as it winds out 1st then it starts spinning again at the top of 2nd and gets a little squirrely but after that it tracks very good and acceleration is brutal as it rips through 3rd, 4th and 5th gear. IMO, the fact that you can overwhelm the tires and chassis is what makes these cars so much fun. EVs are on nanny overload and you can't really get them loose at all. What a waste of all that instant torque.

As for the Tesla and probably most performance based EVs, the traction control systems are very different. I am always shocked at how well our Tesla can launch and put power down with Prius Eco tires. In ICE based vehicles there is a lot of lag time with the traction control systems vs. EVs. In ICE based TC systems, once the system senses a specific amount of tire slip it has to signal the ECU, the ECU in turn pulls timing, reduces power until no more slip, tells ECU to add timing, add power, rinse repeat. This process is like comparing analog to digital if you see how it works on an EV.

With EVs, the ECU is communicating with the drive unit directly so it is like a super fast on/off switch from a traction control perspective. It is kind of like comparing a human pumping the brakes vs. an ABS system pulsating the brakes much more rapidly than a human can do it. As a result the EV can get much more grip out of crappy tires. Then factor in the dual motor versions of the Tesla Model 3s. The rear drive unit does like 90% of the acceleration as the weight transfers and then the front motor kicks in under hard acceleration. When just cruising you mainly use the rear motor to save energy.

The direct control over the drive units is what makes these EVs so consistent and less fun to drive at the same time. I remember when I first drove my Tesla Model 3 Performance. I was like, there is no chance of anyone beating this car off the line to about 60mph, unless it was another Tesla or some type of exotic Hybrid or something. Anyway, it is so good at being quick down low with no drama that it becomes boring. This is the fear I have for future performance EVs. I am curious if there will be much that can be done to overcome the lack of noise, vibration, tire spin, shifting, etc. How will a Dodge emusclecar be anymore "fun" to drive than a Hellcat? I think a lightweight Miata EV convertible would have a better chance at being fun.

That big heavy battery is smack dab in the middle of the car and low to the ground also. Nice little recipe they have for traction.

I got dealt with by a plaid a couple weeks ago, then watched him decimate a C7 Z06…it was a weird feeling because it didn’t bother me, as i shifted my cammed car home, enjoying the sounds and smells of ICE.

Now had the Z06 pulled on me(stock I believe) I would’ve been ordering pulley and lowside fueling once I got home

[TXCSSU]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

So, the ZL1 hides its speed very well. That's what happens when you have such a good chassis. This car is very comfortable at triple digits. A Miata at 50mph feels like 80mph. The ZL1 at 100mph feels like 70mph.
I think part of what you are feeling is the tall gearing as well but the ZL1 would just annihilate the tires even worse if it had the shorter gearing of the SS. In the A10 I have to feather it quite a bit as it winds out 1st then it starts spinning again at the top of 2nd and gets a little squirrely but after that it tracks very good and acceleration is brutal as it rips through 3rd, 4th and 5th gear. IMO, the fact that you can overwhelm the tires and chassis is what makes these cars so much fun. EVs are on nanny overload and you can't really get them loose at all. What a waste of all that instant torque.

As for the Tesla and probably most performance based EVs, the traction control systems are very different. I am always shocked at how well our Tesla can launch and put power down with Prius Eco tires. In ICE based vehicles there is a lot of lag time with the traction control systems vs. EVs. In ICE based TC systems, once the system senses a specific amount of tire slip it has to signal the ECU, the ECU in turn pulls timing, reduces power until no more slip, tells ECU to add timing, add power, rinse repeat. This process is like comparing analog to digital if you see how it works on an EV.

With EVs, the ECU is communicating with the drive unit directly so it is like a super fast on/off switch from a traction control perspective. It is kind of like comparing a human pumping the brakes vs. an ABS system pulsating the brakes much more rapidly than a human can do it. As a result the EV can get much more grip out of crappy tires. Then factor in the dual motor versions of the Tesla Model 3s. The rear drive unit does like 90% of the acceleration as the weight transfers and then the front motor kicks in under hard acceleration. When just cruising you mainly use the rear motor to save energy.

The direct control over the drive units is what makes these EVs so consistent and less fun to drive at the same time. I remember when I first drove my Tesla Model 3 Performance. I was like, there is no chance of anyone beating this car off the line to about 60mph, unless it was another Tesla or some type of exotic Hybrid or something. Anyway, it is so good at being quick down low with no drama that it becomes boring. This is the fear I have for future performance EVs. I am curious if there will be much that can be done to overcome the lack of noise, vibration, tire spin, shifting, etc. How will a Dodge emusclecar be anymore "fun" to drive than a Hellcat? I think a lightweight Miata EV convertible would have a better chance at being fun.

Originally Posted by jvandy50

That big heavy battery is smack dab in the middle of the car and low to the ground also. Nice little recipe they have for traction.

I got dealt with by a plaid a couple weeks ago, then watched him decimate a C7 Z06…it was a weird feeling because it didn’t bother me, as i shifted my cammed car home, enjoying the sounds and smells of ICE.

Now had the Z06 pulled on me(stock I believe) I would’ve been ordering pulley and lowside fueling once I got home

Good points on both, but I also think that the fact that the torque is pretty consistent throughout is helpful. There's no dramatic spike in the torque as it's pretty much consistent throughout, which makes it easier on the chassis and the contact of the tires. But, the placement of the battery I would also agree with as the derps that engineered my Nissan Leaf for whatever reason made the battery go where the engine would go, so it's not as clean when it comes to center of gravity.

What I think a lot of EV haters are forgetting is that the chassis of the EV is such uncharted territory that once they get down the technology they're going to be able to focus on chassis tweaking. I figure if Tesla can do what it's doing with the Plaid, once the larger companies catch up with the tech, it's going to be business as usual.

[ZX-10R]

Originally Posted by TXCSSU

I'm a driving enthusiast, there's no reason for me to get mad. I don't think either answer is wrong, as it's going to matter what your end goal is with the car. If you're strictly about pure performance, automatic hands down. If you want to feel a little more engaged, manual hands down.

But again, true "engagement"/enjoyment of a manual assumes very high level shift quality and durability - synchro transmissions are a compromise for the street and always give up some performance. I want something SOLID, where I can hammer through the gears, and it's generally not there in street cars. The GT3 is probably about as good as it gets for production cars

As I said previously:

Ultra short shift dogbox ($$$), sign me up - synchro transmissions (even the best ones) not so much. I'm very picky about shift quality and most of them just aren't that good (rubbery/numb). The Camaro is ok

https://racetechservicesinc.com/prod...x-transmission

[pauly1119]

Originally Posted by ZX-10R

But again, true "engagement"/enjoyment of a manual assumes very high level shift quality and durability - synchro transmissions are a compromise for the street and always give up some performance. I want something SOLID, where I can hammer through the gears, and it's generally not there in street cars. The GT3 is probably about as good as it gets for production cars

As I said previously:

If your tracking and using the gear box to that level then the automatic will have over heating issues. I see a lot of track rats that switched to the auto went back to a manual because of the cars running much hotter with the auto’s. Everything had its ups and downs. The way I use the car it really wouldn’t matter either way. I wouldn’t push either one to it’s limits. The GT3 is out of my price range for a single car, I prefer to have a few cars instead.

[Z OH 6]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

Yeah, the Tesla launch is very consistent, no skill involved, they make any driver a 0-60mph hero. The A10 will help a bit but the issue is not enough tire grip in our cars. I can get 3.6-3.7 sec 0-60mph times but if we could get all the power to the ground I am sure we be in the low 3s. If it was a Tesla Model 3 Dual Motor or Performance once you hit around 60-70mph you will blow right by them as they fall flat after 60mph or so. That is the penalty of the single gear. If it is a Model S Plaid just forget it because that car has a flat torque curve to about 150mph. But it will be the most boring 9 second 1/4 mile run you ever experience.

By the way, just came back from a drive myself and a Shelby GT350 pulled up next to me at about 70mph. He took off and I caught and passed him pretty easily. These ZL1s are beasts.

I got to disagree with you on a Tesla being a boring experience. My wife just bought a used 2021 Model Y Long Range, that's the "slow" version which still does 0-60 in 4.6 seconds, and a 1/4 in 12.4 seconds. It doesn't feel boring at all, in fact it's quite exciting. I can't really explain it, you just have to drive one. EVs are far more exciting than most people think. I love driving it and I have a 800hp ZL1 sitting in the garage. My wife loves it so much that we ordered a Model Y Performance, which should be built in 4-5 months and we'll trade the Long Range in for it. She's got a 2020 AMG G63 as her gas guzzling toy but she's even considering replacing it with a Model X Plaid. I can't say enough good things about the Tesla EVs, they are amazingly fun to drive. I can't even imagine how much fun a Plaid is. The instant torque makes throttle response instant, no waiting for rpm's to climb and the battery packs are very low in the vehicle so it distributes all the weight for more performance, for a 4300lbs vehicle it feels just as light as a ZL1. Handling in these will surprise you for a vehicle not made for a road course like a ZL1.

[JBones81]

Originally Posted by Z OH 6

I got to disagree with you on a Tesla being a boring experience. My wife just bought a used 2021 Model Y Long Range, that's the "slow" version which still does 0-60 in 4.6 seconds, and a 1/4 in 12.4 seconds. It doesn't feel boring at all, in fact it's quite exciting. I can't really explain it, you just have to drive one. EVs are far more exciting than most people think. I love driving it and I have a 800hp ZL1 sitting in the garage. My wife loves it so much that we ordered a Model Y Performance, which should be built in 4-5 months and we'll trade the Long Range in for it. She's got a 2020 AMG G63 as her gas guzzling toy but she's even considering replacing it with a Model X Plaid. I can't say enough good things about the Tesla EVs, they are amazingly fun to drive. I can't even imagine how much fun a Plaid is. The instant torque makes throttle response instant, no waiting for rpm's to climb and the battery packs are very low in the vehicle so it distributes all the weight for more performance, for a 4300lbs vehicle it feels just as light as a ZL1. Handling in these will surprise you for a vehicle not made for a road course like a ZL1.

Yea, my cousin tracks his model 3 performance and does well with it. I think it does 0-60 in like 3.1 seconds too

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by Z OH 6

I got to disagree with you on a Tesla being a boring experience. My wife just bought a used 2021 Model Y Long Range, that's the "slow" version which still does 0-60 in 4.6 seconds, and a 1/4 in 12.4 seconds. It doesn't feel boring at all, in fact it's quite exciting. I can't really explain it, you just have to drive one. EVs are far more exciting than most people think. I love driving it and I have a 800hp ZL1 sitting in the garage. My wife loves it so much that we ordered a Model Y Performance, which should be built in 4-5 months and we'll trade the Long Range in for it. She's got a 2020 AMG G63 as her gas guzzling toy but she's even considering replacing it with a Model X Plaid. I can't say enough good things about the Tesla EVs, they are amazingly fun to drive. I can't even imagine how much fun a Plaid is. The instant torque makes throttle response instant, no waiting for rpm's to climb and the battery packs are very low in the vehicle so it distributes all the weight for more performance, for a 4300lbs vehicle it feels just as light as a ZL1. Handling in these will surprise you for a vehicle not made for a road course like a ZL1.

So, I owned a Tesla Model 3 Performance for the past couple years and we still own a Model 3 SR+, which is great for daily driving duty. I will agree that the instant torque is nice and the tech is cool but that is about where it ends for me. After a couple of years I started to miss the personality that you get from performance based vehicles.

Here is my synopsis of my Model 3 Performance before I traded it for a ZL1.

- No exhaust note, can be good if you like being a silent assassin and not attract any attention but otherwise the lack of pleasing noises and vibration tends to create a numb driving experience.
- Torque is instant and flat but falls off after 60mph due to lack of gearing or enough power like the Plaid has. The power is more like an on/off switch versus being able to build power and wind out the gears. While you are blistering fast off the line the Model 3 is pretty lame at highways speeds. Any ICE performance vehicle will easily pull on it. Plaid power costs $140k but maybe it will eventually trickle down to the $60-70k price point.
- No drive modes
- No magnetic ride suspension
- Uninspiring interior for a sports sedan, no gauges, no HUD, no sporty cockpit feel.
- Seats have no support for a car with this kind of performance, no bolstering to hold you in place.
- No LSD and the car is on nanny overload. You can't spin a tire, kick the rear out, nothing. Track mode only available on the Performance Trim and you have to put it in Park to engage it, makes all kinds of high pitches noises as it tries to cool the battery, not ideal for spirited driving.
- Lacks driving engagement, no manual, no paddles, nothing...
- Not enough differentiation between the Performance and LR Models. Same performance once you hit 60mph.
- These cars also lose quite a bit of Performance once the state of charge drops below 80%. At 50% charge they are down around 74hp vs. 90% charge.

So, I would drive the Model 3 Performance and SR+ back to back all the time and I actually prefer the handling characteristics of the slower SR+. Without the front motor the car actually feels more like a mid-engine car from a handling perspective.

I agree that Tesla makes a great vehicle, which is why I still own one but when it comes to a performance car/sports car it just doesn't tug at the heartstrings for me. It doesn't have the styling or stance to generate much excitement. We shall see what Dodge "E-muscle" is all about in a year or so but I am not sure I would want to own a first generation EV from some of these companies until they can prove they won't burn your house down.

I traded a C7 Grand Sport for the Tesla Model 3 when I got all caught up in the hype of the instant torque but after a while the novelty wore off and I missed all the character and engagement you can get from a performance based ICE vehicle.

[Z OH 6]

Originally Posted by JBones81

Yea, my cousin tracks his model 3 performance and does well with it. I think it does 0-60 in like 3.1 seconds too

If he got the performance model, that is correct. The long range model is 4.2s. Neither of which are boring. The Model 3 has impressed just about every journalist that has driven one not only in acceleration, but overall feel of driving.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by Z OH 6

If he got the performance model, that is correct. The long range model is 4.2s. Neither of which are boring. The Model 3 has impressed just about every journalist that has driven one not only in acceleration, but overall feel of driving.

I think the majority of people will like the way EVs drive. I mean if you are comparing a Toyota Camry to a Tesla Model 3 it is going to be a huge improvement in performance and technology. There is no way I would go back to an ICE based suv or sedan for our daily driver but when it comes to fun vehicles it is just not there yet. I mean maybe if you had a Miata EV with a small battery to keep the weight down, top goes down, RWD only and you have a ton of instant torque to whip the small car around it could be fun.

[4thGenSSGuy]

Electric vehicles have nothing in common with muscle/hyper/sport Cars

How would you compare a Toyota Prius to a Dodge Viper?

In the very near future, the majority will be driving Prius style Cars (and Trucks).

[Z OH 6]

Originally Posted by 4thGenSSGuy

Electric vehicles have nothing in common with muscle/hyper/sport Cars

How would you compare a Toyota Prius to a Dodge Viper?

In the very near future, the majority will be driving Prius style Cars (and Trucks).

This statement is so far off-base that I don't even know where to start. I think you really need to spend some time behind the wheel of a modern Tesla and rethink your statements.