[WhiteMale]

experiences with toe plates and camber? Things like these:


https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tnh-3300


I want to get in to doing my own alignments after being unsatisified at several shops, being told camber wrecks tires, it's dangerous, having things set in the green (in spec) and called good enough. I really want to get in to my own alignment and this doesn't seem all that hard to do.
Really saw a setup like this on one of my car shows that I watch (Powernation) where they we're dialing in a car at the track.

[cdb95z28]

IMO, coming from doing my own string alignments for 5 or 6 years now, our cars demand perfection when it comes to toe and thrust. Otherwise they won't drive nice. I have not used toe plates like those, but you'll want to make sure that any variable is controlled or removed. With those, things like consistent tape measure use and how tight you are pulling on them to reduce tape droop. That may be difficult to control. And they probably require the use of two people.

But more important is these alone will not allow you to measure the thrust or individual wheel toe. Those plates only give you the total axle toe. String alignments will give you an opportunity to measure individual toe, total axle toe, and thrust.

As for the camber, for precision and repeatability, a flat and level plane the car can sit on is a must. While those plates can probably give an accurate camber #, once you get deep into actually adjusting your car, especially the IRS, those plates will not be user friendly. While I don't have much experience on a Gen6 yet (I have a '22 1LE on order), my experience with my Gen5 showed that as you move rear camber, the rear toe moves and vice versa. So when adjusting the rear, you have to be able to see camber and toe movement at the same time, at each individual wheel. At the front, moving camber moves toe but typically not the other way around.

Those plates are better suited for Saturday night circle track cars where cost control and speed of alignment is important. Those cars also typically have solid rear axles which do not require a high degree (or any for that matter) of toe control. And this somewhat simplifies thrust control. The type of tires those cars typically use do not demand the precision tightness as the short sidewall tires our cars use.


I have an unfinished thread on camaro5 with my home string alignment thoughts. Don't hesitate to ask a question on that thread:

https://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=566970

[Dabjbr]

Originally Posted by cdb95z28

IMO, coming from doing my own string alignments for 5 or 6 years now, our cars demand perfection when it comes to toe and thrust. Otherwise they won't drive nice. I have not used toe plates like those, but you'll want to make sure that any variable is controlled or removed. With those, things like consistent tape measure use and how tight you are pulling on them to reduce tape droop. That may be difficult to control. And they probably require the use of two people.

But more important is these alone will not allow you to measure the thrust or individual wheel toe. Those plates only give you the total axle toe. String alignments will give you an opportunity to measure individual toe, total axle toe, and thrust.

As for the camber, for precision and repeatability, a flat and level plane the car can sit on is a must. While those plates can probably give an accurate camber #, once you get deep into actually adjusting your car, especially the IRS, those plates will not be user friendly. While I don't have much experience on a Gen6 yet (I have a '22 1LE on order), my experience with my Gen5 showed that as you move rear camber, the rear toe moves and vice versa. So when adjusting the rear, you have to be able to see camber and toe movement at the same time, at each individual wheel. At the front, moving camber moves toe but typically not the other way around.

Those plates are better suited for Saturday night circle track cars where cost control and speed of alignment is important. Those cars also typically have solid rear axles which do not require a high degree (or any for that matter) of toe control. And this somewhat simplifies thrust control. The type of tires those cars typically use do not demand the precision tightness as the short sidewall tires our cars use.


I have an unfinished thread on camaro5 with my home string alignment thoughts. Don't hesitate to ask a question on that thread:

https://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=566970

I’ve read that thread several times. Really impressed with your work and am highly considering building my own rig to use on my 1le and our Lemons race car.

I have a few thoughts and questions for you….

Being that we cannot change caster, is there much benefit to take that measurement?

Do you think placing all 4 corners on wheels cribs and linoleum turn plates would be just as effective as your elevated ramps?

Is there any way to adjust camber while the wheel is mounted (from backside) or do you have to continually remove/install?

[cdb95z28]

Originally Posted by Dabjbr

I’ve read that thread several times. Really impressed with your work and am highly considering building my own rig to use on my 1le and our Lemons race car.

I have a few thoughts and questions for you….

Being that we cannot change caster, is there much benefit to take that measurement?

Do you think placing all 4 corners on wheels cribs and linoleum turn plates would be just as effective as your elevated ramps?

Is there any way to adjust camber while the wheel is mounted (from backside) or do you have to continually remove/install?

We can change caster, but the debate is if we should. There are some benefits but it has side effects. That debate is for another thread.

But measuring it, yeah, there's no real benefit in measuring it other than knowing what it is. If we make some significant changes then we should check it. If we have a gauge to check camber, we can easily check caster. The Vorshlag camber plates for the Gen6 allow for caster change. I had played with caster on my Gen5 1LE so that was part of my alignment procedure.

As for wheel cribs, not sure. We want to be sure the suspension/tires have no induced loading. Anything that would cause an unnatural alignment. So we'd want to be sure where the tires are resting on the wheel cribs is not causing any kind of weird loading on the tires. It would be possible to get them correct, but it is another variable we must control. I suspect it would be extremely minor. It could be something we don't need to worry about and it works perfectly. Since you would still be using the turn plates that helps remove the bind at the crib to floor. The crib use would certainly allow more practicality in doing your own alignments and with not having to have a dedicated area like I do. I've seen other guys make cribs out of 2x4 lumber and do their own alignments.

More variables makes consistency more difficult. Something else that driving up onto a level platform creates is that the suspension is perfectly loaded with the static ride heights correct and repeatable. If we have to jack up a car and place it on wheel cribs, depending on suspension stiffness (which goes beyond just springs), getting the car back to correct static ride height may be difficult. I realize that we may be splitting hairs with small changes of how the suspension is loaded when at static ride height but, for me, I want to understand and control as many of the variables as possible.

As for camber adjustments, at the front, adjusting camber while the wheel is mounted is possible without having to jack up the car. As long as the car is elevated, like my alignment platform or a 4 post lift/alignment rack/wheel cribs. I have used a powerful air impact with a swivel impact socket to loosen the strut to knuckle nuts. Easy on a Gen5 but on a Gen6 the strut to knuckle bolts are splined. While some swear they were able to adjust their camber without having to knock out those bolts beyond the splines, others, including myself working on my buddy's Gen6 I had to knock them clear of the splines. With having to do that it would be very difficult to continue the camber alignment without removing the wheel. Concerning those splines on the bolts, I think if we can get the nuts loose and the splines stay out of the strut's flange and only stay in the aluminum knuckle then it is possible that the strut will move independently of the knuckle. If it does that then tweaking the camber is possible without removing the wheel.

Prior to loosening the two strut bolts/nuts, insert a 10mmx1.5 bolt or set screw into the top of the aluminum knuckle. Not sure what length but on my Gen5 I used a 30mm long set screw. Turn in until it just touches the strut. Once we loosen the two bolts/nuts then then we can turn the 10mm bolt/set screw clockwise (CW) to reduce negative camber. We turn it counter-clockwise (CCW) to increase negative camber. The loaded up suspension when at static ride height should keep tension on that set screw so there is always a force against it's tip. This is more important when we turn it CCW because if there still is something holding up the knuckle from moving freely from the strut, turning the set screw CCW will not give you anymore negative camber. But once the knuckle closes in toward the strut and finally touches it, there will be no more negative camber to be had.

Here is a DIY alignment thread with a video showing how the strut and knuckle work together to adjust camber.
https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=560773

Once we get the desired camber, without disturbing the car, tighten the strut bolts with the impact. Once am I completely finished with the alignment I will remove the front wheels and torque the strut bolts. On my Gen5 I had calculated what the final torque would be vs the GM method of tightening, which is a torque to angle method. This is not to be confused with torque to yield. Torque to yield is used on one time use bolts that are tightened to yield (permanently stretched). The Gen6 rear toe rod and lower control arm eccentric bolts are one time use torque to yield.

Because we tightened the strut bolts with the impact, we probably would be far from the base point torque of GM's torque to angle tightening procedure which is 111 lb/ft. I would not want to risk the camber changing by loosening the strut bolts just to get to that base torque of the GM tightening procedure. When I get my Gen6 I will figure out a final torque without having to do GM's procedure. On a Gen6, the GM tightening procedure is to tighten the bolts to 111 lb/ft then turn an additional 80-95 degrees. More info on this can be found here:

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=502324


Remove the 10mm set screw from the knuckle. I left my set screw in my Gen5 knuckle, but I used some Loctite. If you leave it in, only snug the set screw, don't overtighten it.

I have, depending on what I was changing, adjusted the camber to get it close to my desired # with the wheel off. But that was usually when the car was not on the alignment platform.


At the rear, as with the front, having the car at static ride height but elevated is the best way to get excellent #s and it offers easy access to adjust.

[Dabjbr]

cdb95z28,

Thank you for the thorough and thoughtful response. Your description all makes sense and will be further solidified when I eventually take on the task myself.

Thanks for the links too! I was curious how much camber I could get without using Vorshlag plates and negative 2.5 - 2.7 is likely just the sweet spot for me as it's a DD and track car.

I've heard a lot about the TTY parts and alignments going out of whack after track use. Although I cannot say I've experienced it (yet?), I went ahead and bought SPL rear toe links that will go in when I install solid subframe bushings.

Now I just need a weekend to myself to:
- install subframe bushings
- bleed brakes
- change oil
- change diff fluid
- install oe side skirts
- install clear side markers
- seat recline mod
- seat cooling fan mod (have a ss1le)
- perform string alignment

I think I may need more than a weekend! And, I have to do it while not losing any upcoming track event time!

First world problems for sure!

[cdb95z28]

Originally Posted by Dabjbr

cdb95z28,

Thank you for the thorough and thoughtful response. Your description all makes sense and will be further solidified when I eventually take on the task myself.

Thanks for the links too! I was curious how much camber I could get without using Vorshlag plates and negative 2.5 - 2.7 is likely just the sweet spot for me as it's a DD and track car.

I've heard a lot about the TTY parts and alignments going out of whack after track use. Although I cannot say I've experienced it (yet?), I went ahead and bought SPL rear toe links that will go in when I install solid subframe bushings.

Now I just need a weekend to myself to:
- install subframe bushings
- bleed brakes
- change oil
- change diff fluid
- install oe side skirts
- install clear side markers
- seat recline mod
- seat cooling fan mod (have a ss1le)
- perform string alignment

I think I may need more than a weekend! And, I have to do it while not losing any upcoming track event time!

First world problems for sure!

You're Welcome. It looks like I will be doing a few of the same stuff you have on that list. My 1LE is on order and I've already started collecting a bunch of parts. ZLE subframe mounts, seat fan mod, SLP toe rods and side markers. I already have M1 0W40 and GM diff fluid and I'm making as set of Gen6 alignment jigs.

Those SPL toe rods are a big step in keeping the alignment. A few things to have when doing your own string alignments is an attention to detail and patience. Don't get in a rush and you'll get excellent results.

First world problems indeed!

[Dabjbr]

Looking forward to seeing those ‘alignments jigs’!

Also, glad to see us on a very similar journey. Being that I’ve tracked the car 10ish times last year, I’d recommend you do the seat recline mod too (assuming you’re going to track it). Sometimes it’s nice to pull over and nap after a long day of driving and the stock recline in either seat is not good.