[Dark Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Jaxcam02

I think a 2024 EV Camaro is more of a possibility than anyone thinks. That will be the gen 7, I mean for christs sake they have already teased a EV platform sedan that resembles a camaro. It'll most likely be a 4 door EV Camaro just like ford is doing with the EV Mustang.

Why does everyone assume sedan platform means 4 doors? The Camaro has used a platform shared with sedans since 2010. If GM wants to dominate car segments, wouldn’t it be most sensible to build a 5th Gen retro designed Electric Camaro, think like the Hummer EV really says Hummer in it’s styling cues. The car would become bigger again like the Gen 5 without a doubt to check off the practically box a little better like a Challenger. If they did it the car and GM for building it first would draw a lot of attention. Al Oppenheiser would build it right as well. Perhaps not a bad idea to go back to it’s previous marketing and roll with appearing in an upcoming Bumblebee or Transformers movie, or at least use the Bumblebee marketing with the car showing in Yellow & Black again.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by Dark Phoenix

Why does everyone assume sedan platform means 4 doors? The Camaro has used a platform shared with sedans since 2010. If GM wants to dominate car segments, wouldn’t it be most sensible to build a 5th Gen retro designed Electric Camaro, think like the Hummer EV really says Hummer in it’s styling cues. The car would become bigger again like the Gen 5 without a doubt to check off the practically box a little better like a Challenger. If they did it the car and GM for building it first would draw a lot of attention. Al Oppenheiser would build it right as well. Perhaps not a bad idea to go back to it’s previous marketing and roll with appearing in an upcoming Bumblebee or Transformers movie, or at least use the Bumblebee marketing with the car showing in Yellow & Black again.

I think the main reason it will be 4 door sedan is because it would appeal to a broader customer base and sell better. I think eventually we get the enthusiast trims but not until they start cranking out a profit on the bread and butter stuff.

[I don't want a mustang]

I think that if there was no interest in rip-snorting V8 ICEs then every 5th car I see wouldn't be a hemi-powered Charger or a Mustang with aftermarket pipes.

I'd be driving a Charger if it wasn't (shudder) MOPAR.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by jamala00

There's a reason I don't own a 60s/70s muscle car. The only way I would is if it was a restomod... but that being said your comparison isn't really a comparison. Driving an old 60's/70's V8 gave you a Visceral feel that no EV will ever give you...

Originally Posted by hotlap

Have you ever driven a big block Chevelle? They ooze personality and are silly fun to drive. Visceral in spades.

I would say a Chevelle is a great example of 0 to 60 not being the primary consideration. By today’s standards not very fast but they have character.

Driven many Big Blocks, but not a Chevelle. But the point was the Muscle cars were basically cramming the biggest engine possible into whatever it would fit in. They didn't do much more than go in a straight line very fast (and not by today's standards).

But it simply goes back to the NVH problem. That's all it is. I've spent parts of my career trying get rid of NVH issues in ICE products. EV fixes that problem.

Also of note, the C8 team had to do an engineered exhaust tip to get the noise of the engine back toward the cabin. Apparently driving the car did not result in enough of the "NVH problem" and you couldn't hear the flat plane crank as much as they wanted. Interesting solution.

And to be clear, I do get the NVH issue. I've said many times I miss having people ask, "an SS what?", LOL, so much that I stopped at a Chevy dealer the other day to look at a 2017 Heron White SS. Had only 13,000 miles. Unfortunately, I'm not willing to pay more than the original sticker on a 4-year-old car. $50,500. Most days owning that car were started with a remote start before I even got in the car so I could hear it. But for me that wasn't THE reason to own that car. For others maybe it is.

Originally Posted by oldman

I still think that a slimmed down C8, with OHV an auto or manual trans is will be the 7th gen Camaro. Softer ride, smaller tires, cheaper trans. 327 cid 400 HP base engine.

They've already told us a manual won't fit in the C8 and you also want an engine that doesn't exist.

And if you want a different body for appearance differentiation, you've just ended up with more investment than just doing a Gen7 off of Alpha2.

And there is no way in this universe GM would simply give you a cheaper Corvette and call it a Camaro. The C5 hardtop was originally intended to be a cheap Corvette, cloth seats, manual windows, etc. Someone wised up and realized they were just giving the customer a way to pay them less money for the car. And we've had Z06s ever since

Oh, and another point of reference was the XLR. Basically, the same architecture and chassis as the C6. Talk about the tail wagging the dog. Wonderful car and proud to have worked on it. But it failed mostly because you could by a Corvette and get more power and performance for a lot less $. GM hasn't done that very well in the past.

2, 2 seat mid-engine cars with 2 different price points would simply be a disaster.

[Hops]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

It is tough to say. I think desirable enthusiast ICE vehicles should hold their value as they will be able to provide a driving experience that an EV just can't.

I own a Tesla Model 3 and a ZL1 for this reason. The Model 3 is great for daily driving duty, low operating cost, great tech, one pedal driving, autosteer on highways, etc. but it can't deliver that visceral engaging experience you get from a performance ICE based vehicle. It is the exhaust and engine noise, vibration, tire spin, rise and fall of the RPM through the shifts, interior gauge cluster, performance seats, etc. that helps add to the experience.

I am hopeful that GM and others will find a way to deliver great driving dynamics in their upcoming EVs but as a Tesla owner I am skeptical. I think new EVs owners will initially be pleased with the low operating costs and instant torque of a BEV but once the honeymoon is over true enthusiasts will miss the drama and personality that a muscle car can offer. Interesting times ahead.

This comment is gold. There are precious few people comparing somewhat similarly performing EV/ICE cars (of course the ZL1 kills the Model 3 on the road course) in daily driving after living with them as personal cars.

[gpskinzhut]

C8 platform makes zero sense. You'd essentially be converting Bowling Green into 2 separate lines since the Vette is only built there. Retooling another plant for a "cheap" bridge model? Not cheap by any stretch of the imagination. Never mind leeching sales, etc.

[WhiteMale]

It's in it's death throws right now. Get over it. Buy it now and enjoy it because it's on it's last legs, 1-2 more years at best.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Number 3

….
And there is no way in this universe GM would simply give you a cheaper Corvette and call it a Camaro. The C5 hardtop was originally intended to be a cheap Corvette, cloth seats, manual windows, etc. Someone wised up and realized they were just giving the customer a way to pay them less money for the car. And we've had Z06s ever since

Oh, and another point of reference was the XLR. Basically, the same architecture and chassis as the C6. Talk about the tail wagging the dog. Wonderful car and proud to have worked on it. But it failed mostly because you could by a Corvette and get more power and performance for a lot less $. GM hasn't done that very well in the past.

2, 2 seat mid-engine cars with 2 different price points would simply be a disaster.

Exactly. Camaro off of C8 is not gonna happen for a number of reasons, most of which you have stated. Makes zero economic sense. Spend more to sell for less. Okay.

BTW, in Planning world one of the reasons the C5 Z06 was a notchback coupe is because despite the lower price, the base notchback Corvettes weren’t selling, but the tooling still had to be paid for. The remaining volume of notchbacks was dedicated to Z06 since people do pay for performance. And the only way to get a Z06 was the notchback. For C6 the notchback was scrap-piled and Z06 was available as a hatchback coupe.

[IMadeYouReadThis]

Hopefully Camaro lives on for 7th gen.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by Hops

This comment is gold. There are precious few people comparing somewhat similarly performing EV/ICE cars (of course the ZL1 kills the Model 3 on the road course) in daily driving after living with them as personal cars.

This is just my middle aged perspective from someone who grew up driving Pontiac Firebird Formula and IROC-Z, Mustang 5.0 Foxbody and then eventually could afford a C5 Z06, C7 Grand Sport and now a ZL1.

That said, a younger generation that doesn't have anything to compare to will probably not care much about these types of cars and prefer silent performance EVs, with lots of cool tech, AI, etc.

I will not lie, at first I was blown away by the Tesla Model 3 performance. It seems silly how easy it is to go fast in these cars. AWD, no tire spin, no drama and bam 0-60mph in 3.1 sec. every time, even in the rain. No driving skill is required, just mash the pedal and you that's it. Soccer Mom's will blow you away at the stoplights. But after you get used to that and you eventually will, I was left missing that personality and feeling you get from a muscle car or a sports car.

I think the new C8 E-Ray could be interesting. If you get to combine both technologies working together. LT2 V8 plus instant electric motor torque will be very interesting.

[genxer]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Exactly. Camaro off of C8 is not gonna happen for a number of reasons, most of which you have stated. Makes zero economic sense. Spend more to sell for less. Okay.

BTW, in Planning world one of the reasons the C5 Z06 was a notchback coupe is because despite the lower price, the base notchback Corvettes weren’t selling, but the tooling still had to be paid for. The remaining volume of notchbacks was dedicated to Z06 since people do pay for performance. And the only way to get a Z06 was the notchback. For C6 the notchback was scrap-piled and Z06 was available as a hatchback coupe.

Why wouldn't they have just made more $ per crank window, cloth seat vehicle? They wouldn't have knocked more than a couple hundred off anyway.

Maybe you and #3 missed GM's design styling wasn't that great, to the younger crowd then. The SSR? Better looking bodies went to the Boss Hog badge.

I'd think with chip shortages and rising prices, there'd be more disdain out there for the now favored products. If there's ever a buyer push for getting the f'n tech out of our f'n cars... count me.

Not intending a too sour tone. Merry Christmas to all.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by genxer

Why wouldn't they have just made more $ per crank window, cloth seat vehicle? They wouldn't have knocked more than a couple hundred off anyway.

Maybe you and #3 missed GM's design styling wasn't that great, to the younger crowd then. The SSR? Better looking bodies went to the Boss Hog badge.

I'd think with chip shortages and rising prices, there'd be more disdain out there for the now favored products. If there's ever a buyer push for getting the f'n tech out of our f'n cars... count me.

Not intending a too sour tone. Merry Christmas to all.

To be honest, very few were willing to accept the design compromise of the notchback, even for the reduced price. They simply were not selling. So rather than ditch the notchback, GM shifted to make all notchbacks Z06 and made Z06 only available as a notchback.

When C4 launched in 1983 (84MY), GM’s target was to have a sub-$20k base price. It was listed at $19,995 with roll up windows and cloth interior. Just like today for C8 the target was sub-$60k. My roommate and I placed orders for C4 on the same date. He ordeedr a white, red cloth interior, roll up windows MT. I ordered a silver, grey leather interior, power windows. Mine came in, although I didn’t take delivery on it. His never came in. He wound up having to cancel the order and re-order with power windows and wound up getting an ‘85.

So even damn near 40 years ago it was clear that GM de-prioritizes cheap Charlie models to the end of the production schedule and limits how many they will actually build. Roll-up windows in today’s environment would cost a ton of money to productionize, only to have to sell at lower price than they could get for a better equipped vehicle. You have to engineer it, find a supplier willing to make it at ridiculously low volume, and set up the production line to separate the roll up parts from the power window parts and train the operators on both operations. Ain’t happening. Zero incentive for the company to do all that. Especially when they are selling every one that they can push out the door, no matter how expensive the content.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Exactly. Camaro off of C8 is not gonna happen for a number of reasons, most of which you have stated. Makes zero economic sense. Spend more to sell for less. Okay.

I think a slimed down C8 with a true auto or M6 option would sell as many units as the Vette itself. I HIGHLY doubt a M6 or auto is going to be as expensive as a DCT. I HIGLYT doubt that a 327 400 HP is going to be more expensive than a LT2 or LT6. Assuming there is production capability at the plant, a slimmer version is some where between easy and a "retool". It is the same platform.

I'm well aware of the M6 won't fit.. I'm sure there are "ways". GM would just have to search for a M6 tansaxle. Not like they build the DCT anyway,

There is a HUGE following of people that want an M6 and it is NOT an issue of performance.

I think it is rather funny that you are fundamentally stuck on "no way" without taking into the context of future demand for a OHV V8 and manual in ANYTHING. A slimmed down C8 with the right drivetrain would fill a market left over by the pony cars and the Charger going away. That niche IMO is huge, much bigger than the Vette niche.

Note I have the easier road, I think there is a way and a market; but I'm not saying Chevy will do it. You are saying there is no way or market, which is fundamentally untrue. Maybe there is not enough market or the cost are indeed too high (demands on market eh?).

[gpskinzhut]

Originally Posted by genxer

Why wouldn't they have just made more $ per crank window, cloth seat vehicle? They wouldn't have knocked more than a couple hundred off anyway.

Maybe you and #3 missed GM's design styling wasn't that great, to the younger crowd then. The SSR? Better looking bodies went to the Boss Hog badge.

I'd think with chip shortages and rising prices, there'd be more disdain out there for the now favored products. If there's ever a buyer push for getting the f'n tech out of our f'n cars... count me.

Not intending a too sour tone. Merry Christmas to all.

Because it deviates from manufacturing efficiencies, thereby increasing production costs across both labor and supply chain, which are then passed on to the customer.

Example: A manual crank requires a different assembly and a different installation. Low demand means higher material costs. And so on and so forth. That's it in a nutshell. It's a niche product of already small demographic.