[wrankin]

Hey guys,

I have a 2016 stock SS with 1LE replica wheels and have started running in CAMC. My only changes to the car are a track alignment, SC3 tires and an FE4 front sway bar. Are there any other minor mods that could help. The only thing I can really think of at this point is the rear FE4 sway bar, but not sure if that would help or hurt. Any thoughts and recommendations are appreciated.

Bill

[DaveC113]

SC3s aren't competitive, in autox they may never come up to optimal temps. My results using them closely tracked the weather, lol.

Seems like the Falken RT660 are a good option, I'd go 315/30/18. Apex sells wheels for the application. Some will say go 11" wide, some prefer 12s, IDK.

I'd consider ZLE rear cradle bushings, Vorshlag camber plates and adjustable rear toe links. Besides the wheels and tires, a proper alignment with ~3.2 ft camber, ~2+ rear and zero toe is going to be necessary. Cradle bushings will help a lot there's way too much slop in stock SS bushings.

My stock SLE with 305/30/19 RE71s, GMPP rear diff tune and cradle bushing isn't quite competitive, however, it's enough to get me some really good results in both SCCA and BMW autox series this year. I plan on adding camber plates and rear toe link before next year.

Don't worry about changing the sus until you get the wheels/tires and alignment and have driven the car.

[cdrptrks]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

SC3s aren't competitive, in autox they may never come up to optimal temps. My results using them closely tracked the weather, lol.

Agreed but if there is an option to run doubles or share the car with a second driver they are not bad if it is a sunny (preferably hot) day and still good to practice car control when they are below their optimal temp. I still enjoy doing some autocross events a few times per year with the SC3s on a track alignment with stock parts and stock cradle bushings and OEM eDiff tune but would probably enjoy it more with those mods and proper autocross tires.

[utekineir]

Re sc3 bashing:

On my 4th set of sc3 since last fall between a c7gs, ctr and zle. Will happily continue to buy them into the future. Had bought a set of nankang cr1 this fall for c7, back to back with the sc3 the goodyears easily were prefered by codriver (legitimate alien) and myself.

Are they yoko fast, no. But they are on par with the rest of the 200 tw field, sc3 are not in any way slow, on the c7gs i get near 400 runs a set (60 ish second run, old airfield pavement) and with usaa discount + gy credit card rebate doubling the price works out to a few bucks a run. My fronts on the zle are on pace for that wear wise, but a few thick clouds have hurt the chances of rears lasting that long.

Not sure how you guys are having trouble keeping heat in them. We're into tire blanket season in the northeast and they're still workable. How long are your gaps between runs?




from yesterday, stock zle, alignment, 325 square sc3, ambients were in the 50s, day started with heavy frost everywhere, the only street tire cars faster were st* on yoks and not by a ton.

[DaveC113]

I'm not bashing SC3s, I'm simply stating how they work, what they were designed for. They are intended for track use. I also used them for 1.5 season in autox and once I got RE71s my results made a quantum leap, and it made the whole experience a lot better and more worthwhile. That's just for me, everyone is different...

Autox tires are far more consistent, which makes driving the car much more fun, and it puts you on a level playing field vs everyone else, which is more fun as well. On SC3s you really aren't competing with anyone even halfway serious. Don't get me wrong, it's still fun, but you have no chance at all vs anyone with autox tires and similar skills. Once hot they do grip well enough to get decent results if you're a good driver but I've been to events where they never get hot and the whole thing seems like a waste of time. The grip REs have in cool, damp weather is insane vs SC3 after they get just a little warm.

Finally, Camaro SS 1LE and ZL1 have an OEM version of the SC3 that may be a significantly different compound vs the version you used on your c7gs, so we may not even be talking about the same tires, @utekineir

[utekineir]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

On SC3s you really aren't competing with anyone even halfway serious. Don't get me wrong, it's still fun, but you have no chance at all vs anyone with autox tires and similar skills.

This beyond terribly wrong.

Ner has more Red jackets and national podiums/trophies than is worth keeping track of, very easy not to get big fish in small pond syndrome when local events have a huge amount of established talent.

Again, sc3 are not yokos and neither is any other 200tw tire either. However they are in no way bad whatsoever, you won't win in lincoln on them just like re71 at this point. But they are more than capable of being locally competitive and being absolutely the best bang for the buck tire out there given what they can be purchased for (25% off + 150 rebate is the norm, currently 30% and no rebate atm.)

Realistically with pointy end distribution the fastest people at this point have mostly gravitated to yokos and falkens/kangs where the yokos dont fit size wise, similar to how str became spec nd. If you arent an extreme pointy end hardo sc3 are stellar.

Finally, Camaro SS 1LE and ZL1 have an OEM version of the SC3 that may be a significantly different compound vs the version you used on your c7gs, so we may not even be talking about the same tires, @utekineir

theres some andy hollis postings on rrax about the wider (265+ iirc) sc3 having a different shoulder tread block design that is faster, but compound being the same across all the variations.

[wrankin]

Hey guys, thanks for chiming in and taking the time to respond. My wife started autocrossing with me the last three events, so we are warming the SC3 tires up a bit. I am going to limit the spend on the car over the 2022 season because I am considering getting something else - possibly a 1LE, ZL1 or even a C7GS - the current used car market has created the hesitation. I purchased the 20" 1LE replica wheels before I started autocrossing, and now know about the limited tire choices, but will most likely stick with what I have for next season. Not really wanting a garage with two spare sets of wheels and tires

I just started running CAMC and one real event under my belt, and had good results. The level of talent locally varies widely event to event, in both CAMC and FS. I am not anywhere near the pointy end of the stick with my driving ability, but feel like I am making progress.

Maybe I'll rephrase and simplify my question - will an FE4 rear sway bar be a good addition?

Bill

[utekineir]

Originally Posted by wrankin

Maybe I'll rephrase and simplify my question - will an FE4 rear sway bar be a good addition?

Bill

Did you use the gm track alignment specs? Keep in mind autocross and track are not necessarily the same in desired alignment goals. Both want you to load up negative camber as much as possible, but autocross puts more of a priority on turn in and twitchy directional changes than overall stability. My first weekend with the zle i tried front toe in per the track alignment specs but had friend doing my alignment note the amount of turning to get to 1/8" front toe out from there. Going to front toe out was an improvement for my goals.

What behaviors in the car do you feel would be beneficial to change?

Firing off the parts cannon isn't always the solution in fixing or modding. You have free adjustments at the rear like tire pressures, toe, camber.

I made the mistake early on of throwing money at everything instead of just driving better, identifying setup deficiencies and then addressing them.

Also with rwd vehicles many times rear bar size may be reduced or even disconnected to increase rear grip. Your right foot and weight transfer can be used to induce rotation.


This is a bit old but still invaluable, theres also a flow chart from lugod that may be a bit easier to read if i can find it

Dial-in Cheat Sheet
By Mark Daddio

Understeer and oversteer must be categorized in three separate states:
corner entry, mid-corner and corner exit. The rules that follow are for
normal conditions for most cars. Most preferred adjustments are listed
before others, try them first then proceed to others if necessary.

Corner Entry Condition: Understeer

1. Soften front shocks (rebound) and/or stiffen rear shocks (rebound).
2. Lower rear tire pressure.
3. Toe out front end. (However, make sure there is not too much toe out
already, as this will cause a mid-corner push to develop).
4. If rear toe is an option, adjust the rear towards toe out, this will also
help. (However, rear toe has a huge effect on mid-corner, so be careful
with this last adjustment).

Corner Entry Condition: Oversteer

1. Stiffen front shocks (rebound) and/or soften rear shocks (rebound).
2. Lower front tire pressure.
3. Toe in front end. (However, do not go beyond zero toe).
4. If rear toe is an option, adjust the rear towards toe in, this will also
help. (However, remember that rear toe has a huge effect on mid-corner).

Mid-Corner Condition: Understeer

1. If the understeer is caused by a lack of negative camber in the front, a
larger front swaybar can help the situation to a point. Try a swaybar
change if you have limited camber adjustment or pyrometer tests show
you need more negative camber and you cannot get any more. This is
trial and error. Usually one change will tell you which way to go.
2. If rear toe is an option, then it is a very good way to help the
understeer. Move towards toe out or more toe out will help.
3. Lower front tire pressure or raise rear tire pressure.

Mid-Corner Condition: Oversteer

1. Theoretically you would do the opposite of above. However, It is very
unlikely that you will get a car with this condition. There are no street
cars that really come close to this. Most mid-corner oversteer is really
corner entry oversteer gone uncorrected. Refer to shock adjustments
from corner entry to correct the problem. Correct the problem at corner
entry and you will most likely correct the problem at mid-corner.

Corner Exit Condition: Understeer

1. Usually corner exit understeer is a carry over of mid-corner understeer.
Most cars will not be good in the mid-corner and then develop a push on
corner exit. Refer back to mid-corner understeer.
2. If you have correct the problem at mid-corner and still have push at
corner exit in a rear wheel drive car, you have too much toe in at the rear.
In a front wheel drive car, you have too much toe in at the front of the
car.
3. Remember, if you have to adjust toe to correct corner exit understeer,
you are going to have to go back and use other adjustments to correct
corner entry and mid-corner balance.

Corner Exit Condition: Oversteer

1. Always in rear wheel drive cars; front wheel drive cars need not apply.
Almost always too much throttle.
2. Only other thing it could be is toe out in the rear. (big no no)
3. A worn limited slip can also cause this situation. (Remember we are
only talking to rear wheel drive cars. If you have corner exit oversteer in a
front wheel drive car, other sports beckon).

The Peculiar Checklist

1. Be sure that nothing is binding. In stock class cars, the front swaybar
should be free moving when the end links are disconnected.
2. Most corner exit problems are left over from mid-corner and most
mid-corner problems are left over from corner entry. (ei. get the corner
entry right or you will not be fast).
3. Don't use shocks to adjust for mid-corner problems. Many people try
to correct mid-corner push with stiffer rear shock settings (rebound), this
is very bad. Isolate were the problem starts and fix it there.
4. If at all possible set the mid-corner balance of the car on a skid pad
and set the shock settings with a long slalom. This is why we go around
the circle turn twice and have lengthened the slalom. In a front wheel
drive car you should be very close to neutral on a skid pad, bordering on
oversteer. (Rear toe out is a good idea here if you have enough rebound
at the front to control corner entry). In a rear wheel drive car, very light
understeer on the skid pad is the goal.
5. If you pay attention you will begin to feel that all the changes have
some effect in all phases of cornering. You need to develop a way of
prioritizing effects of such change on the different planes of cornering.
This becomes critical in determining what is the best adjustment for
various cornering problems. (ei. different track conditions)
6. EXTRA. The best fix for a car that has a bit of oversteer on corner
entry, but also has a bit too much mid-corner push might be simply 3-4
pounds less air in the front tires. Think about all your options.
7. LASTLY. Make sure your attention is on the corner phases. If you
cannot separate them, you will not be able to fix the problems.

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by utekineir

This beyond terribly wrong.

Ner has more Red jackets and national podiums/trophies than is worth keeping track of, very easy not to get big fish in small pond syndrome when local events have a huge amount of established talent.

Again, sc3 are not yokos and neither is any other 200tw tire either. However they are in no way bad whatsoever, you won't win in lincoln on them just like re71 at this point. But they are more than capable of being locally competitive and being absolutely the best bang for the buck tire out there given what they can be purchased for (25% off + 150 rebate is the norm, currently 30% and no rebate atm.)

Realistically with pointy end distribution the fastest people at this point have mostly gravitated to yokos and falkens/kangs where the yokos dont fit size wise, similar to how str became spec nd. If you arent an extreme pointy end hardo sc3 are stellar.




theres some andy hollis postings on rrax about the wider (265+ iirc) sc3 having a different shoulder tread block design that is faster, but compound being the same across all the variations.

Lol, you say "I'm terribly wrong" then go on to describe how I'm totally right. Apparently you have issues actually reading and understanding what I was saying.

In any case, no. I'm absolutely NOT wrong.

[utekineir]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

Lol, you say "I'm terribly wrong" then go on to describe how I'm totally right. Apparently you have issues actually reading and understanding what I was saying.

In any case, no. I'm absolutely NOT wrong.

You said they are not ax tires.

You are terribly wrong.

They are not yokos, nothing is yokos, not rt660, re71, nankang cr1, sc3, rivals, khumo whatever trash they came out with this year, etc. Maybe the eventual conti autocross tire will have a chance. (not the out now extreme contact force)

Sc3 are on pace with everything 200tw that doesnt have a052 in its name, wear great and can be bought cheap.

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by utekineir

Sc3 are on pace with everything 200tw that doesnt have a052 in its name, wear great and can be bought cheap.

Lol... You are terribly wrong.


No no, wait a minute... you are horribly, obscenely, disgustingly and unbelievably wrong. I WIN!!! HAHAHAHA!!!

[utekineir]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

Lol... You are terribly wrong.


No no, wait a minute... you are horribly, obscenely, disgustingly and unbelievably wrong. I WIN!!! HAHAHAHA!!!

Please find a better big ass ax tire for locals in terms of cost per run that can still fill a shelf with shitty drinkware and a closet with free tshirts. Size above was 4x 305/30/20



250+ run sc3 in early fall, slightly damp.

[wrankin]

Originally Posted by utekineir

Did you use the gm track alignment specs? Keep in mind autocross and track are not necessarily the same in desired alignment goals. Both want you to load up negative camber as much as possible, but autocross puts more of a priority on turn in and twitchy directional changes than overall stability. My first weekend with the zle i tried front toe in per the track alignment specs but had friend doing my alignment note the amount of turning to get to 1/8" front toe out from there. Going to front toe out was an improvement for my goals.

What behaviors in the car do you feel would be beneficial to change?

Firing off the parts cannon isn't always the solution in fixing or modding. You have free adjustments at the rear like tire pressures, toe, camber.

I made the mistake early on of throwing money at everything instead of just driving better, identifying setup deficiencies and then addressing them.

Also with rwd vehicles many times rear bar size may be reduced or even disconnected to increase rear grip. Your right foot and weight transfer can be used to induce rotation.


This is a bit old but still invaluable, theres also a flow chart from lugod that may be a bit easier to read if i can find it

That's a lot to digest. Even got a bit of heartburn - haha - what all of the above tells me is I need much more seat time before I do anything beyond adjusting tire pressures. Seat time to improve my skills and to know my car better

My alignment is the 6Gen Camaro track alignment. My car is not strictly used for autocross. I do some street driving but not as a DD, so I know I am compromising the setup a bit. I am monitoring treadwear. I will shelve the idea of beefier rear bar for now. The car is not the limiting factor.

Thanks again for taking the time to respond!

Bill

[utekineir]

Originally Posted by wrankin

That's a lot to digest. Even got a bit of heartburn - haha - what all of the above tells me is I need much more seat time before I do anything beyond adjusting tire pressures. Seat time to improve my skills and to know my car better

My alignment is the 6Gen Camaro track alignment. My car is not strictly used for autocross. I do some street driving but not as a DD, so I know I am compromising the setup a bit. I am monitoring treadwear. I will shelve the idea of beefier rear bar for now. The car is not the limiting factor.

Thanks again for taking the time to respond!

Bill

Have fun, get seat time, get more seat time. Determine where the car is lacking and then make changes.

Even a normal ss is very fun and competent.