[Silveradoss573]

Originally Posted by AZCamaroFan

dodge fans are the least likely to buy electric

This whole electric fade will be short lived. Just wait and watch...

[ariZona28]

Originally Posted by Silveradoss573

This whole electric fade will be short lived. Just wait and watch...

Kinda reminds me of the "everything will be diesel" threat 10 or so years ago. And fuel was going to be free 'cuz we were all gonna use French fry grease. That fizzled pretty quick. Pretty sure the VW shenanigans didn't help.

[BehindBlueI's]

Originally Posted by ariZona28

Kinda reminds me of the "everything will be diesel" threat 10 or so years ago. And fuel was going to be free 'cuz we were all gonna use French fry grease. That fizzled pretty quick. Pretty sure the VW shenanigans didn't help.

Emissions requirements killed that movement, I think, not shifting consumer preferences. Diesel hitting $5/gallon with the ULSD diesel requirement and the perfect storm of supply and economic reality sure didn't help.

[snizzle]

Originally Posted by Silveradoss573

This whole electric fade will be short lived. Just wait and watch...

I don't think so this time. Social pressure. Big org virtue signaling. Lobbyist. Political influence. Incentives. Relative build simplicity. Dwindling ICE development. They're coming even if we're not asking for them.

[Hops]

Originally Posted by Silveradoss573

This whole electric fade will be short lived. Just wait and watch...

I think there's some chance for synthetic fuels could turn the tide, or at least be available for enthusiasts. The current li ion batteries haven't increased much in energy density. I looked up the energy density of a 2008 tesla roadster, and it wasn't much different the the current model 3. Yes the battery price has gone down, but a light EV performance car with good range doesn't seem to exist. I think it will be some time before we get a new battery chemistry that's cheap, and significantly more energy dense.

All the while, strides could be taking with synthetic fuels in scaling and efficiency. These fuels won't compete well when generated with local distributed electricity, but plants located in remote places with an excess of undistributed green energy will be hard to argue with like Porsche's plant in Chile that uses cheap excess wind generated electricity.

[Envious_Ivy1LE]

Originally Posted by Hops

I think there's some chance for synthetic fuels could turn the tide, or at least be available for enthusiasts. a light EV performance car with good range doesn't seem to exist. I think it will be some time before we get a new battery chemistry that's cheap, and significantly more energy dense.

All the while, strides could be taking with synthetic fuels in scaling and efficiency.

unless those synthetic fuels are dirt cheap and require little to no research, I don't see that being a viable option. Development is the reason the big 3 haven't really dipped into electric before now. Since that's starting to become a non-issue, they'll be looking at that option before anything else.

I don't think the general public cares about, or even really grasps the benefits of, lightweight vehicles. especially those that are EV diehard. so looking into other options just for the purpose of weight savings won't be high on anyone's list

[Hops]

Originally Posted by Envious_Ivy1LE

unless those synthetic fuels are dirt cheap and require little to no research, I don't see that being a viable option. Development is the reason the big 3 haven't really dipped into electric before now. Since that's starting to become a non-issue, they'll be looking at that option before anything else.

I don't think the general public cares about, or even really grasps the benefits of, lightweight vehicles. especially those that are EV diehard. so looking into other options just for the purpose of weight savings won't be high on anyone's list

yes, i agree. I assumed the discussion we centered around us gear heads. I think EV's will be a very, very large chunk of vehicles. But this eFuel experiment is being performed. And it's interesting to speculate what role these fuels might play in the future.

In the pilot phase, around 130,000 litres of eFuels will be produced as early as 2022. In two further phases, capacity will then be increased to about 55 million litres of eFuels a year by 2024, and around 550 million litres of eFuels by 2026. Porsche will be the primary customer for the green fuel. Other partners in the project are the energy firm AME and the petroleum company ENAP, from Chile, and Italian energy company Enel.
https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/2020...els-23021.html

[KMPrenger]

The eFuel technology from Porsche sounds fantastic. I've read some articles on it, and it sounds like the real answer we need to be working towards, instead of just going full on EVs. Imagine a fuel the powers current vehicles with no changes needed and can be a net neutral in carbon emissions. Well...thats what this is, and it exists. I'm probably missing something, but the current issues I'm aware of is cost per gallon, and growing production to a level that could satisfy a large world wide demand (which if executed, I'm sure would push that cost down hugely....but perhaps not to current gas levels...who knows).

Why aren't "we" pursuing this more!?

But as much as I hate to say it, if I had to make a guess I'd say that IF the eFuel idea goes anywhere the most it will be used for, is powering older vehicles or maybe Porsche will utilize it somehow. Even in that case, I have a hard time seeing this taking the place of good ole gasoline for years and years to come.

Being a bit more optimistic, I think the best case scenario we could maybe expect is that the majority of people will drive EVs while eFuel will fill the rest of the gap and perhaps some new cars could be made to run on it.

The way over optimistic outlook would be that eFuels take off, supply and cost issues are solved, and everyone realizes that this solution is the one that makes the most sense, everyone gets their cake and eats it to (V8 enthusiasts keep their sound, while tree huggers still can feel like the planet is being saved and turn their attention elsewhere)

All car companies and world governments are so "all in" on EV at this point, I don't see it not taking over.

[Envious_Ivy1LE]

call me willfully ignorant on the topic.. I don't know what kind of production foothold would be needed to manufacture batteries for EVs on a scale large enough to match the amount of ICE vehicles that are currently produced yearly..

it seems, if reducing the impact vehicles have on the climate and planet is the main goal, the winner would probably be whichever can get it done with a smaller footprint? I haven't read much on EV tech nor was I even aware of eFuels.. but they both seem like they would have their benefits.

I wish EV lovers were as open about these conversations as people who want to keep hearing their engines roar are lol but most EV people are electric or die, unfortunately

[Hops]

Originally Posted by Envious_Ivy1LE

call me willfully ignorant on the topic.. I don't know what kind of production foothold would be needed to manufacture batteries for EVs on a scale large enough to match the amount of ICE vehicles that are currently produced yearly..

it seems, if reducing the impact vehicles have on the climate and planet is the main goal, the winner would probably be whichever can get it done with a smaller footprint? I haven't read much on EV tech nor was I even aware of eFuels.. but they both seem like they would have their benefits.

I wish EV lovers were as open about these conversations as people who want to keep hearing their engines roar are lol but most EV people are electric or die, unfortunately

Yeah, for some reason a lot of EV folks think that synthetic fuel is a oil conspiracy. And it's interesting how much they don't won't synthetic fuels to work, usually noting how inefficient translating the electricity to moving the car is. Yet ignoring how you can locate the production of these fuels where there's an excess of carbon free energy that otherwise couldn't be used.

I think people aren't admitting the uncertainty in how quickly the transition to more EV's will occur. It could happen quicker than we think or, it could take longer. And I'm willing to give Dodge/GM/Ford a chance to make a compelling performance EV that replaces what they currently have. If it's not, i'm NOT buying it!

[snizzle]

Originally Posted by Hops

And I'm willing to give Dodge/GM/Ford a chance to make a compelling performance EV that replaces what they currently have. If it's not, i'm NOT buying it!

Faster, yes, easily possible. The 9 THOUSAND pound Hummer is faster. If you like shifting gears and a direct connection to the car (already almost in the rear view mirror) and the rumble/feel of an authentic V8, it's almost over for you.

[Rob3D]

Originally Posted by Silveradoss573

This whole electric fade will be short lived. Just wait and watch...

Then how do you explain tesla sales doubling since 2018? The R&D of all major manufacturers coming out with ev’s. Ecars are here to stay, and while the ice won’t go the way of the dodo for another generation or so, ecars will take over,

[FarmerFran]

Originally Posted by Rob3D

Then how do you explain tesla sales doubling since 2018? The R&D of all major manufacturers coming out with ev’s. Ecars are here to stay, and while the ice won’t go the way of the dodo for another generation or so, ecars will take over,

ON top of that...

Mach E was sold out
Hummer is sold out
Ford already has over 100,000 orders for the F150 Lightning
RAM is estimating more than that on the E-RAM

[90503]

Originally Posted by FarmerFran

ON top of that...

Mach E was sold out
Hummer is sold out
Ford already has over 100,000 orders for the F150 Lightning
RAM is estimating more than that on the E-RAM

...."Sold out"...for now...sounds good. But once the low-hanging fruit of cheap and convenient electricity, minimal taxation comparable to ICE, and government subsidies and tax credits are gone, the party and hype will be over and very quickly...

ICE will be gone long before EVs are a viable replacement. They will never be produced in large numbers. Sure, there is some technology that will improve EVs, but no getting around the need for "Rare Earth" materials. Promoting a propulsion system dependent on "Rare Earth" minerals, no matter how far you manage to stretch their availability is a finite resource, way more finite than fossil fuels which are being needlessly regulated out of favor to promote EVs.

EVs are "popular" now as a novelty and an alternative, but they won't be able to replace the economy and affordability of ICE transportation in the long run. ICE will be gone, and it won't be long before everyone will wish it was back, especially once electricity becomes the only choice and as overly expensive as the rare earth materials needed for EVs.