[gtfoxy]

Originally Posted by Chef-j

All manufacturers/dealers wants any customers either they have bad or good credit. But lets say FCA did, that makes them bad company?

To be honest, in a way, yeah.

I think many of us, especially here in the ZL1 forum, not because we are any better than other Camaro owners, but more because of the higher investment total, I would imagine to be in the financial position to afford a car in that price range probably means we take our fiscal responsibility pretty seriously.

I get that things happen in life that are conceivably beyond ones control that could have a drastically negative impact on their credit. Divorce, loss of employment, etc, At the same time I’ve been dealing with credit & lenders for the better part of 3 decades. Many credit reports I’ve seen from people applying for credit show long histories of fiscal irresponsibility.

One, to offer a reward program for that kind of behavior is, IMO, not only predatory, but also anti productive, in a societal sense, because it basically encourages said fiscal irresponsibility.

I’m sure the devil was in the details in the loan structure to the effect of “Yeah, we’re giving you this $1,500 off but we are going to bury you in a 10yr high interest rate loan after which absolutely no one will give you a loan on another car until it’s paid off.”

That’s what makes it predatory & quite frankly unethical.

Add: As a dealer for RV’s, no, I don’t want people not in a position to actually afford something that are in debt to buy anything from me. I want you to not be so far in debt you are drowning in it. As it is, for what I sell my lenders will not even consider an application with any bad reporting & a <700 credit.

[Chef-j]

Originally Posted by gtfoxy

To be honest, in a way, yeah.

I think many of us, especially here in the ZL1 forum, not because we are any better than other Camaro owners, but more because of the higher investment total, I would imagine to be in the financial position to afford a car in that price range probably means we take our fiscal responsibility pretty seriously. .

Car is not investment. Also havinv 60k car… it doesnt mean you are at position where you can judge others. Im so sorry, but it is true.

[gtfoxy]

Originally Posted by Chef-j

Car is not investment. Also havinv 60k car… it doesnt mean you are at position where you can judge others. Im so sorry, but it is true.

Cars absolutely are an investment. One that rarely brings a return on that investment, but an investment none the less.

It’s not a judgment per sé, more an observation over decades of dealing with people. Majority of people I deal with have good credit & are fiscally stable. At the same time I understand the two are not mutually exclusive.

I also understand auto loans are way easier to get than what I sell. I would hope, however, that someone that can afford to put 10-20% down on any car pays their other bills, otherwise you shouldn’t be buying it. Pay your other bills first.

Maybe there are a lot of people that have $10-20k in cash saved up while having either a high debt to income, past dues or charge offs, & the accompanying 600 credit score to go with it, but that doesn’t mean a lender is going to take the buy on a $60k car. A $30K one, maybe.

That’s my point.

I’ve been in the position to have to tell people many times that what they are wanting to buy is out of their reach of getting a lender on, no matter if they put 50% down because you have crap credit & no one will touch you so you need to go fix your credit then try again. Sorry, but that’s the real reality I deal with.

[Juniorss]

Originally Posted by Z OH 6

You're still talking about an uncommon issue. Do some research and see how many SRT vehicles were sold and then compare that to the few vocal people on a forum and you'll see the percentages are very low. Many of the failures you're reading about were also with an aftermarket cam installed. That's not the vehicle manufacturers fault. This is the way the internet works, just because you can google someone that has an issue doesn't make it a common problem. If its a major issue, the manufacturer will perform a recall. You always read about the people that have issues, but you hardly ever read about the other satisfied customers that DON'T have issues. Again, I have to ask, why are any of us driving a Camaro ZL1 if the oil pumps are such a common problem? I'll tell you why, because its not that common. Has the oil pump failed in these vehicles? Sure, but its not like its a widespread issue.

I guess seeing multiple posts a day related to it from different people is an uncommon problem.. Also please tell me where any one of those posts say anything about an aftermarket cam EXCEPT where the guy recommends to put one in when swapping out the bad one?

Let’s move onto the recall topic. Ever take a look at the corvette forum, specifically the C7 section where the wide body cars (Z06/GS) are having issues with wheels cracking? 57 pages of people that have multiple wheels that have cracked (https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...us-thread.html). No recall from GM, and you can’t tell me with a straight face that a cracked wheel is not a major issue. I personally know someone that has cracked 4 of them.

I actually haven’t read about the oil pump issue with these cars. I’ll have to do some research on it, but I have done some extensive research in thinking about ordering one, and I never have seen it mentioned.

[Chef-j]

Originally Posted by gtfoxy

Cars absolutely are an investment. One that rarely brings a return on that investment, but an investment none the less.

It’s not a judgment per sé, more an observation over decades of dealing with people. Majority of people I deal with have good credit & are fiscally stable. At the same time I understand the two are not mutually exclusive.

I also understand auto loans are way easier to get than what I sell. I would hope, however, that someone that can afford to put 10-20% down on any car pays their other bills, otherwise you shouldn’t be buying it. Pay your other bills first.

Maybe there are a lot of people that have $10-20k in cash saved up while having either a high debt to income, past dues or charge offs, & the accompanying 600 credit score to go with it, but that doesn’t mean a lender is going to take the buy on a $60k car. A $30K one, maybe.

That’s my point.

I’ve been in the position to have to tell people many times that what they are wanting to buy is out of their reach of getting a lender on, no matter if they put 50% down because you have crap credit & no one will touch you so you need to go fix your credit then try again. Sorry, but that’s the real reality I deal with.

Everyone has different way of view. I see what your point though.

[Z OH 6]

Originally Posted by Juniorss

I guess seeing multiple posts a day related to it from different people is an uncommon problem.. Also please tell me where any one of those posts say anything about an aftermarket cam EXCEPT where the guy recommends to put one in when swapping out the bad one?

Let’s move onto the recall topic. Ever take a look at the corvette forum, specifically the C7 section where the wide body cars (Z06/GS) are having issues with wheels cracking? 57 pages of people that have multiple wheels that have cracked (https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...us-thread.html). No recall from GM, and you can’t tell me with a straight face that a cracked wheel is not a major issue. I personally know someone that has cracked 4 of them.

I actually haven’t read about the oil pump issue with these cars. I’ll have to do some research on it, but I have done some extensive research in thinking about ordering one, and I never have seen it mentioned.

Better rethink that ZL1 purchase since there were some oil pump failures, and you may want to stay off the internet before purchasing any vehicle otherwise a quick search will likely yield some issue with any vehicle produced, possibly even 57 pages of a small group of owners discussing the subject over and over again.

[Juniorss]

Originally Posted by Z OH 6

Better rethink that ZL1 purchase since there were some oil pump failures, and you may want to stay off the internet before purchasing any vehicle otherwise a quick search will likely yield some issue with any vehicle produced, possibly even 57 pages of a small group of owners discussing the subject over and over again.

Haha ignorance is bliss my friend. I don’t see a 57 page thread about oil pump issues, just saying.. I guess you think that all vehicles are perfect.

I’ve had quite a few vehicles over the years, every vehicle has its own inherit issue. Some are easier fixed than others. Do I believe everything on the Internet, no but the 6.4’s definitely have lifter problems, and the c7’s definitely have a wheel cracking issue. I guess you probably don’t believe the collapsed lifter/ bent pushrod issue in the new GM full-size trucks. And I did debate buying one for my wife, (Escalade or Denali) but I’ll wait til they fix that issue.

[Future1LEa10]

This shit is still going...smh.

[gtfoxy]

Originally Posted by Future1LEa10

This shit is still going...smh.

Strap in, cause when the free unemployment .gov-bucks dry up & people are scrambling to get their ass off the couch & work for a living, but all the jobs are filled or employers, by that point, like me, have made either a game plan to move on without needing that extra work force, or when I see in your application you’ve been sitting on your ass for over a year when I & soooo many other employers had help-wanted ads for that year, tell your low-life, do nothing, societal sucking ass to hit the bricks cause I don’t want your type at my place of business. That’s because I & my other employees have been busting our ass taking up the slack when I’d have gladly paid you a good wage so I can focus on other things to grow & employ even more people you’re going to see credit scores hit a rock bottom.

Oh, they started their own business while sucking off the societal teet? Well, they have a rude awakening coming when they go to buy anything, regardless of credit score cause it’s “We’ll need 3yrs of tax returns & bank statements.” Meanwhile they’ve been hiding the income & it’s not there. After they do start reporting it they take every conceivable tax exemption to lower their taxable income. Then the reality hits that when you do that you show less in profits, or net earnings, so your debt to income becomes more sideways than a Mustang going over a curb after some pedestrians on a sidewalk.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Z OH 6

And you're the only one that's ever worked in the car business. Maybe it was just your area. Dodge must be having so much success because of their high risk loan structures and not because they actually build a good product. GTFO.

FCA helps drive subprime lending machine
Gabrielle CoppolaBloomberg News
July 18, 2017

It’s classic subprime: hasty loans, rapid defaults, and, at times, outright fraud.

....

Few things capture this phenomenon like the partnership between Fiat Chrysler Automobiles NV and Banco Santander SA. Since 2013, as U.S. car sales soared, the two have built one of the industry’s most powerful subprime machines.

Details of that relationship, pieced together from court documents, regulatory filings and interviews with industry insiders, lay bare some of the excesses of today’s subprime auto boom. Wall Street has rewarded lax lending standards that let people get loans without verifying incomes or job histories. For instance, Santander recently vetted incomes on fewer than 1 out of every 10 loans packaged into $1 billion of bonds, according to Moody’s Investors Service. The largest portion were for Fiat Chrysler vehicles.

Some of their dealers, meantime, gamed the process so low-income borrowers could drive off in new cars, prosecutors said in court documents.

Through it all, Wall Street’s appetite for high-yield investments has kept the loans — and the bonds — coming. Santander says it has cut ties with hundreds of dealerships pushing unsound loans, some of which defaulted as soon as the first payment. At the same time, Santander plans to increase control over its U.S. subprime auto unit, Santander Consumer USA Holdings Inc., people familiar with the matter said.

Santander, subpoenaed or questioned by a group of about 30 states regarding its auto loan underwriting and securitization activities, declined to comment on “active legal matters.” In May, Santander agreed to pay $26 million to settle allegations brought by Delaware and Massachusetts as part of ongoing investigations into the auto industry’s lending practices. Santander, whose partnership with Fiat Chrysler goes by the Chrysler Capital brand name, neither admitted nor denied wrongdoing.

Reid Bigland, Fiat Chrysler’s U.S. sales chief, said Santander has been a “good partner.”

In recent years, lending practices in the subprime auto industry have come under scrutiny. Regulators and consumer advocates say it takes advantage of people with nowhere else to turn.

For investors, the allure of subprime car loans is clear: Securities composed of such debt can offer yields as high as 5 percent. In a world of ultra-low rates, that’s more than triple the comparable yield for Treasuries. Of course, the market is still much smaller than the subprime-mortgage market which triggered the credit crisis, making a repeat unlikely. But the question now is whether that premium, which has dwindled as demand soared, is worth it.

Cracks emerge

Asset-backed securities based on auto loans are engineered to keep paying even when some loans sour. Still, some cracks have emerged in the $1.2 trillion market for auto financing. Delinquencies have picked up, as have losses on subprime loans. Auto loan fraud, meantime, is approaching levels seen in mortgages during the bubble.

Auto finance “is not going to bring down the financial system like the mortgage crisis almost did, but it does signal more stress with the consumer,” said Stephen Caprio, a credit strategist at UBS Group AG.

The Chrysler-Santander relationship opens a rare window into the industry.

In the years after its 2009 bankruptcy, Fiat Chrysler looked for a dedicated lender to help customers finance cars quickly. One reason it picked Santander was the Spanish lender’s expertise in “automated decisioning.” At the time, a Fiat Chrysler executive said the process helped Santander “take a little bit more risk and approve more deals because they mine the data” in subprime.

Becoming the carmaker’s preferred lender made sense for Santander. It was aggressively expanding in the U.S. subprime loan market, and Chrysler relied more on buyers with lower credit scores than General Motors Co. or Ford Motor Co.

Problems surfaced almost from the start. Many of them, detailed in the settlement between Santander and authorities in Delaware and Massachusetts, recall some of the excesses of the subprime housing era.

Attorneys general in both states alleged Santander enabled a group of “fraud dealers” to put buyers into cars they couldn’t afford, with loans it knew they couldn’t repay. It offloaded most of the debt, which often had rates over 15 percent, reselling them to yield-hungry ABS investors.

State authorities also said an internal Santander review in 2013 found that 10 out of 11 loan applications from a Massachusetts dealer contained inflated or unverifiable incomes. (It’s not clear whether this particular case involved a Fiat Chrysler dealer.)

Santander kept originating the dealer’s loans anyway, even as they continued to default “at a high rate,” the authorities said.

While Santander takes pains to avoid criticizing Fiat Chrysler, the lender launched a special loyalty and rewards program to vet the carmaker’s dealerships. Those that aren’t deemed fraudulent are labeled “VIPs.” Santander has cut ties with over 800 dealers since 2015 as it tries to boost business without exposing itself to more bad loans.

Fiat Chrysler declined to comment on fraud at its dealer network.

Varying norms

Indeed, with U.S. auto sales falling after a record 2016, many lenders including Santander say they’re tightening standards. Santander’s underwriting practices, however, continue to raise eyebrows. In May, Moody’s said Santander verified incomes on only 8 percent of its loans bundled into bonds.

Yet when it comes to due diligence, there’s no industrywide standard. Unlike the mortgage market, stated-income loans — or “liar loans” — are perfectly legal in car buying. Last month, Jeff Brown, Ally Financial Inc.’s chief executive, said verifying income isn’t the norm. Ally, he said, checked incomes on 65 percent of subprime car loans. GM Financial’s AmeriCredit unit checked roughly the same percentage.

The industry has little reason to change given the success of Wall Street’s securitization machine. Protections built into the bonds have largely insulated investors from losses.

The losers, of course, are people who go into debt for cars they can’t afford.

Jerry Robinson, who worked in Santander’s debt collection unit, has seen trouble firsthand.

Often, he found dealers listed non-existent features like sunroofs to inflate a car’s value and win credit approval. Although Robinson’s job was to make sure dealers reimbursed Santander for loan fraud, borrowers didn’t see their debts reduced. Instead, their loans were usually extended, increasing the compound interest consumers would ultimately pay after their repoed cars were reinstated. More often than not, those payments wind up going to ABS investors.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/bu...ine/103815928/

[Z OH 6]

Originally Posted by Juniorss

Haha ignorance is bliss my friend. I don’t see a 57 page thread about oil pump issues, just saying.. I guess you think that all vehicles are perfect.

I’ve had quite a few vehicles over the years, every vehicle has its own inherit issue. Some are easier fixed than others. Do I believe everything on the Internet, no but the 6.4’s definitely have lifter problems, and the c7’s definitely have a wheel cracking issue. I guess you probably don’t believe the collapsed lifter/ bent pushrod issue in the new GM full-size trucks. And I did debate buying one for my wife, (Escalade or Denali) but I’ll wait til they fix that issue.

No, I absolutely don't think all vehicles are perfect, that was exactly my point in staying off the internet if you're worried about buying a vehicle because you can search the internet and find issues with any vehicle. Just because a small percentage of people have issues don't make it a widespread issue. There are numerous threads and posts about the oil pump issue on the ZL1 but its a SMALL percentage of people. The 6.4 engine doesn't have any serious issue with lifters, sorry, but it just doesn't. I lived in that world for the last 5 1/2 years and didn't see any lifter issues.

[Z OH 6]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Interesting read about the past but none of this changes anything though on the original joke that all Scatpack owners have bad credit. FCA sells lots of vehicles not just Scatpacks.

[Z OH 6]

Originally Posted by gtfoxy

Strap in, cause when the free unemployment .gov-bucks dry up & people are scrambling to get their ass off the couch & work for a living, but all the jobs are filled or employers, by that point, like me, have made either a game plan to move on without needing that extra work force, or when I see in your application you’ve been sitting on your ass for over a year when I & soooo many other employers had help-wanted ads for that year, tell your low-life, do nothing, societal sucking ass to hit the bricks cause I don’t want your type at my place of business. That’s because I & my other employees have been busting our ass taking up the slack when I’d have gladly paid you a good wage so I can focus on other things to grow & employ even more people you’re going to see credit scores hit a rock bottom.

Oh, they started their own business while sucking off the societal teet? Well, they have a rude awakening coming when they go to buy anything, regardless of credit score cause it’s “We’ll need 3yrs of tax returns & bank statements.” Meanwhile they’ve been hiding the income & it’s not there. After they do start reporting it they take every conceivable tax exemption to lower their taxable income. Then the reality hits that when you do that you show less in profits, or net earnings, so your debt to income becomes more sideways than a Mustang going over a curb after some pedestrians on a sidewalk.

Amen to this, I was just discussing this with a restaurant owner yesterday. They're hiring but can't get people to work. He said they had 60-70 applications, only 1 person showed for an interview. They hired him, he worked one day and quit. Every business in my city has now hiring signs at their entrance. No one wants to work. Its an embarrassment for America. None of these people can see the long term, if you're not working, you're not building a retirement, job experience, getting employer assisted insurance. No one seems to be thinking what happens when it runs out and your several years older starting all over again in life.

[pauly1119]

Back to the subject. Moper=Garbage