[90503]

I agree with Number 3 on his above post. The 5thGen Z/28 was a golden opportunity to use the LS7 and build a true focused track car that was as true to the old Z/28 formula as possible. And at the time it was the top dog at the track. Job well done and I would call it a success regardless of the sales numbers or pricing.....

At the time the 5thGen Z/28 was built, considering a forced induction motor for a Z/28 was out of the question. It would have been a sacrilege at the time....

A few years later the 1LE's were a fantastic option for the track....Once the ZL1 1LE broke the barrier and ended the "law" against forced induction for a track car, and was a huge success at the 'Ring there was nothing else in the works then or now that could surpass the Zl1 1LE's performance and price. I understand why trying to build another Z/28 would be pointless...

As far as weight reduction goes, that also seems a path that goes down a rabbit hole. I doubt much could be improved on the current Camaros that would set them apart at the track from the stock configuration. I've done it somewhat with my 5thGen, (rear seat delete, tires and wheels, a few misc. things removed). Can't say I set any records after that...lol....other than making a bunch of things to put back on if I sell it...lol..

I'm glad the ZL1 1LE was built that far and away surpasses any possible Z/28. You can modify, lighten, etc., any Camaro you have for the fun and hobby of it....Good luck.

Content and price wise, that should be the forte of the LT1. That has a lot of pork that can still come out to give enthusiasts a low cost V-8 Camaro option.

[JitteryJoe]

I don't car what they call it or how they do it but I would be all for more NA power in a Camaro. LT2, 6.6, and or more RPMs. I definitely think they cannot try to outdo the ZLE as there is too limited a market for an 80K+ Camaro. But give me a 1SS 1LE+ with ~550HP with a pricetag starting with a "5" and I will be rushing to put a deposit down.

[weemus]

The Z28 (often the ultimate version of the Camaro) will be offered in the 6th gen just as it was in every generation. It will be the send off of the 6th gen in 2025/2026 or whenever the 6th gen fades out..uhh just like the 5th Gen. You ALWAYS save the best for last.

I think everyone is hung up on this because this, read 2022, is when it’s “ supposed” to exist based on model year changes. Well buttercups the 6th gen will live a second life (maybe more) and the BEST selling 2nd gen Camaro’s were on the same platform for 11, yes, 11 years!

P.S. This is a “halo” model so making money isn’t the object of the exercise...

But extending the life of a platform, ie reducing developmental costs is one way to improve profitability over the term

Calmer than you are, Dudes

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by weemus

The Z28 (often the ultimate version of the Camaro) will be offered in the 6th gen just as it was in every generation. It will be the send off of the 6th gen in 2025/2026 or whenever the 6th gen fades out..uhh just like the 5th Gen. You ALWAYS save the best for last.

I think everyone is hung up on this because this, read 2022, is when it’s “ supposed” to exist based on model year changes. Well buttercups the 6th gen will live a second life (maybe more) and the BEST selling 2nd gen Camaro’s were on the same platform for 11, yes, 11 years!

P.S. This is a “halo” model so making money isn’t the object of the exercise...

But extending the life of a platform, ie reducing developmental costs is one way to improve profitability over the term

Calmer than you are, Dudes

You are over looking the fact GM doesn’t do Halo cars for the sake of doing Halo cars……unless there is money to be made.

LOVE your optimism though.

And keeping a car around longer doesn’t change the development costs for a Z/28. It’s the same year one or year last.

But because of the CT4/5 it is likely the Camaro has some staying power. If they were trying keep a plant open on Camaro it would be a different story. So if it’s around……….there is hope.

[hotlap]

By definition, a “halo” vehicle is supposed to beam a positive light — or brand image — about its maker. Or, for more practical reasons, attract new vehicle buyers into showrooms filled with less exciting cars and trucks.

That said ...I don't expect GM to spend a penny on improvements to this car.

Interesting that Ford is investing in a S650 Mustang in parallel to the Mustang Mach-E. They aren't putting all their eggs in one basket. Perhaps remembering the gen4 / ST-16 (Probe)
https://www.hagerty.com/media/hagert...d-the-mustang/

The S650 sounds like Dodge's strategy. Evolve the S550 into AWD, Hybrid ...rumors of a sedan variant. Stretch out the life of the existing platform even though current sales have dropped to 60k/year. Keep some sizzle instead of letting it bleed out slowly like GMs is doing with Camaro.

[90503]

Camaro has always outsold both CT4 and CT5 Cadillacs, even with the last quarter chip shortage and Camaro being given low, if not last, priority.

Yet, it is the Camaro that we are told is dependent on Cadillac to stay alive. Pretty sad.

It's Cadillac that needs Camaro to stay in production, not the other way around. Still, the Cadillac myth is babied and treated as if it is sacred compared to the Camaro. GM will keep throwing good money after bad at Cadillac, waiting for some miracle...and kick Camaro to the curb in the meantime.

[DaveC113]

I can't see a Z28 w the C8 Z06 FPC V8.

C8 is already supposed start around $80k and for a track-first car the C8 makes a lot more sense, and IMO most people would choose the C8 Z06 over a Z28 with the same motor and a similar price.

I think the rumors of a Z28 are made-up like so many other things these days... for clicks!

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Checkmate1

You are missing the point. GM knows they made a phenomenal car with the 6th Gen Camaro.

Problem is - us 'enthusiasts' aren't buying them!

Why would GM continue to pour money into a product that isn't selling?

Actually the problem is that's the only people who are buying them lol. #3 hit the nail on the head, they built the best performance car they could and focused it directly to enthusiasts. Problem is the rest of the buying public can't overlook the compromises and when over 60-70% that buys this type buys the base engine car that is a problem

Originally Posted by hotlap

That said ...I don't expect GM to spend a penny on improvements to this car.

Interesting that Ford is investing in a S650 Mustang in parallel to the Mustang Mach-E. They aren't putting all their eggs in one basket. Perhaps remembering the gen4 / ST-16 (Probe)
https://www.hagerty.com/media/hagert...d-the-mustang/

The S650 sounds like Dodge's strategy. Evolve the S550 into AWD, Hybrid ...rumors of a sedan variant. Stretch out the life of the existing platform even though current sales have dropped to 60k/year. Keep some sizzle instead of letting it bleed out slowly like GMs is doing with Camaro.

Probably and kind of makes sense since Ford is segmenting into sub brands. Mustang is going to be it's own brand as is Bronco.

Originally Posted by 90503

Camaro has always outsold both CT4 and CT5 Cadillacs, even with the last quarter chip shortage and Camaro being given low, if not last, priority.

Yet, it is the Camaro that we are told is dependent on Cadillac to stay alive. Pretty sad.

It's Cadillac that needs Camaro to stay in production, not the other way around. Still, the Cadillac myth is babied and treated as if it is sacred compared to the Camaro. GM will keep throwing good money after bad at Cadillac, waiting for some miracle...and kick Camaro to the curb in the meantime.

It's a vicious cycle. Cadillac needs Camaro for volume to keep the plant running

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by 90503

Camaro has always outsold both CT4 and CT5 Cadillacs, even with the last quarter chip shortage and Camaro being given low, if not last, priority.

Yet, it is the Camaro that we are told is dependent on Cadillac to stay alive. Pretty sad.

It's Cadillac that needs Camaro to stay in production, not the other way around. Still, the Cadillac myth is babied and treated as if it is sacred compared to the Camaro. GM will keep throwing good money after bad at Cadillac, waiting for some miracle...and kick Camaro to the curb in the meantime.

Honestly, I have to agree with you. Maybe GM considers the ATS-V a success by some metric, it's hard for me to fathom they sold "well", but from the perspective of the car's actual presence... whatever, car magazines, seeing them around, seeing them at performance events, seeing them at the coffee shop, seeing them on the road... it's greatly over-shadowed by it's CTS-V brother; the CTS-V, a car that, even at that mention, doesn't seem to be that significant of a product, not since when it first came out a decade ago. Both, mostly, blend in with everything else out there. The majority of those cars I do see and notice are the older ones that younger buyers have gotten their hands on and are modifying. Yes. they are, no doubt, very cool cars, the ATS-V and CTS-V. But that product was always "just kinda there", yet GM still wants to pump big $$ into it, I guess, in which the latest versions, the CT5 "Blackwing" and CT4 "Balckwing" are a 100% rinse and repeat of the old, just updated with better tuning and the latest-generation parts (think WRX STI here). Again, they are very cool cars, and they perform well.. the new versions will be as-good and better performers as the prior, but I feel like the cars are there "just to be there because"... like they are just producing something to hold a "certain place", but never being the place (i.e. ebb-and-flow of product wars). Mark my words, the CT4 "Blackwing" and CT5 "Blackwing" will do no better in the market compared to the ATS-V or CTS-V, and potentially worse in this days economy. Maybe that's fine?

I think a last-hurrah, 6th Gen Z/28 would out-sell a CT4 "Blackwing" or CT5 "Blackwing". Would people really miss there not being a new iteration of a CTS-V or ATS-V over a true legacy car like a last-hurrah Z/28? What I am saying is, GM could probably cancel one of the two,CT4 BW or CT5 BW, and put the money towards a Z/28 and probably make out better in the long run.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Mountain

Honestly, I have to agree with you. Maybe GM considers the ATS-V a success by some metric, it's hard for me to fathom they sold "well", but from the perspective of the car's actual presence... whatever, car magazines, seeing them around, seeing them at performance events, seeing them at the coffee shop, seeing them on the road... it's greatly over-shadowed by it's CTS-V brother; the CTS-V, a car that, even at that mention, doesn't seem to be that significant of a product, not since when it first came out a decade ago. Both, mostly, blend in with everything else out there. The majority of those cars I do see and notice are the older ones that younger buyers have gotten their hands on and are modifying. Yes. they are, no doubt, very cool cars, the ATS-V and CTS-V. But that product was always "just kinda there", yet GM still wants to pump big $$ into it, I guess, in which the latest versions, the CT5 "Blackwing" and CT4 "Balckwing" are a 100% rinse and repeat of the old, just updated with better tuning and the latest-generation parts (think WRX STI here). Again, they are very cool cars, and they perform well.. the new versions will be as-good and better performers as the prior, but I feel like the cars are there "just to be there because"... like they are just producing something to hold a "certain place", but never being the place (i.e. ebb-and-flow of product wars). Mark my words, the CT4 "Blackwing" and CT5 "Blackwing" will do no better in the market compared to the ATS-V or CTS-V, and potentially worse in this days economy. Maybe that's fine?

I think a last-hurrah, 6th Gen Z/28 would out-sell a CT4 "Blackwing" or CT5 "Blackwing". Would people really miss there not being a new iteration of a CTS-V or ATS-V over a true legacy car like a last-hurrah Z/28? What I am saying is, GM could probably cancel one of the two,CT4 BW or CT5 BW, and put the money towards a Z/28 and probably make out better in the long run.

I don't know about that last part, GM struggled to sell the 2K or so Z/28s they built at the end of the 5th gen. I'd bet a healthy sum of moneys they will sell a hell of a lot more Blackwing cars than that.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by shaffe

I don't know about that last part, GM struggled to sell the 2K or so Z/28s they built at the end of the 5th gen. I'd bet a healthy sum of moneys they will sell a hell of a lot more Blackwing cars than that.

As GM Authority covered previously, initial reservations for the Cadillac Blackwing models sold out within 24 hours after order books were opened, with 250 units per model (500 units total) offered. Each reservation required a $1,000 deposit, and came with a number of goodies, including one of the first vehicle serial numbers, a certificate of authenticity, and a session as the Cadillac V-Performance Academy in Nevada.

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2021/02...ates-revealed/

A niche in a niche.

[shaffe]

touche

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by shaffe

I don't know about that last part, GM struggled to sell the 2K or so Z/28s they built at the end of the 5th gen. I'd bet a healthy sum of moneys they will sell a hell of a lot more Blackwing cars than that.

I didn't forget that point, on the prior Z/28. An awesome car, but it didn't quite "earn" or justify it's price point for customers to buy into it at the time. For what the car was capable of, what the car actually was, what was available in the current market and the cost of buy-in ($75k MSRP that was marked up obscenely by everyone)... hey, the last "true" Shelby also just came out during that time of the 5th Gen Z/28, and it started at a lower MSRP.

The angle I think the car could've had, or "has", today, is that the stage is open and prime: the electric future is near and Camaro has been slated to die several times already; the Gen 6 Camaro has been pretty dry the last few years in SS (2016)->SS 1LE+ZL1 (2017)->ZL1 1LE (2018)->nothing (2019)->nothing (2020)->nothing (2021)->nothing (2022); there isn't much out there for a recent, special FR American V8 sportscar: Corvette is mid-engine, Mustang's GT350 is dead, the GT500 was old news when it was released, the Mach 1 is too "parts-bin" akin of a thing (hey, it's a good car!), the Charger/Challenger thing is well worn out... do something special in the name of "pinnacle American V8, RWD, NA, can-have-a-manual" and market it that way, have it last model year of production. If GM split the Blackwing twins, only did one, used the other half of the budget towards this thing...

I am 100% not interested in buy anything new that has come out recently, nor anything that is coming out. A 6th Gen Z/28 is definitely something that could change my mind, knowing how awesome the SS 1LE is, considering an "upped" and more special version of that...

Lol, it wont happen. Just a bunch of "I wish" thinking.

[waterman]

Originally Posted by Mountain

I didn't forget that point, on the prior Z/28. An awesome car, but it didn't quite "earn" or justify it's price point for customers to buy into it at the time. For what the car was capable of, what the car actually was, what was available in the current market and the cost of buy-in ($75k MSRP that was marked up obscenely by everyone)... hey, the last "true" Shelby also just came out during that time of the 5th Gen Z/28, and it started at a lower MSRP.

The angle I think the car could've had, or "has", today, is that the stage is open and prime: the electric future is near and Camaro has been slated to die several times already; the Gen 6 Camaro has been pretty dry the last few years in SS (2016)->SS 1LE+ZL1 (2017)->ZL1 1LE (2018)->nothing (2019)->nothing (2020)->nothing (2021)->nothing (2022); there isn't much out there for a recent, special FR American V8 sportscar: Corvette is mid-engine, Mustang's GT350 is dead, the GT500 was old news when it was released, the Mach 1 is too "parts-bin" akin of a thing (hey, it's a good car!), the Charger/Challenger thing is well worn out... do something special in the name of "pinnacle American V8, RWD, NA, can-have-a-manual" and market it that way, have it last model year of production. If GM split the Blackwing twins, only did one, used the other half of the budget towards this thing...

I am 100% not interested in buy anything new that has come out recently, nor anything that is coming out. A 6th Gen Z/28 is definitely something that could change my mind, knowing how awesome the SS 1LE is, considering an "upped" and more special version of that...

Lol, it wont happen. Just a bunch of "I wish" thinking.

Precisely