[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by Msquared

But that's literally what this proposed rule change is intended to do. The "track ponies" are not competitive with the best cars in BS. They just aren't. And the "regular ponies" (SS and GT) aren't competitive with the E90 M3 in FS, either. And as Mike wrote, those cars aren't showing up anymore. Moving the track ponies to FS makes a class where several cars are equally competitive, and leaves BS to the twice-as-expensive M2 Comp, new Supra, Evora (arguably), and C6 Z51 (if it gets moved also). It means you no longer need a decade-old, limited-production, as-expensive-as-new-1LE German car to win FS nationally.


Street (formerly Stock) classes never allowed mods. That's the whole point. And there are always plenty of cars that aren't competitive, because we can't have 100 different Street classes. Typically, cars that aren't competitive or that become obsolete go to Street Prepared, Street Touring, or now CAM. I don't see a problem with that.

However, right now I do see a problem where there is no truly competitive class for any version of any pony car. That is not a situation SCCA wants to continue, because they need a place for relatively affordable and fast cars to compete. There was a time not that long ago when F Stock was the biggest class at national events. I'm not saying we can or need to get back to that, but there needs to be a place where pony cars compete well.


That is literally how it is now and always has been. This current proposal is a move to bump some cars that aren't competitive in BS down to where they will be competitive. FS as a "type" is not quite about all speed capabilities and more about a class for slightly heavy, larger, RW, powerful cars. They do well on some course and not well on others, compared to something like ES and DS cars. So they don't exactly fit the "steps" you mention, but they are trying to keep cars of similar capabilities together. Pony cars have never fit very well in BS when you compare the rest of the cars in that class. They are much bigger and less sophisticated.

Ok, seems to me you're saying "that's literally what this proposed rule change is intended to do." and then go on to describe grouping cars by type and why you think that works. That's NOT what I was talking about... IMO PAX for street cars should be in regular steps from SS to HS and cars would be assigned to a class depending on performance and NOT type.

And then you say there's no competitive class for any pony car but it seems like people are competitive in CAMC and BS with SLEs, and if you go by speed and not type then the cars would simply be assigned to the street class they belong in, whether that be BS, CS, DS, etc... and not simply lumping them all into one class.

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by Msquared

That wouldn't make sense, because on some courses a JCW Mini might be a lot faster than the SS, and on other course it would be slower. For example, if the course was mostly slaloms and offsets with little acceleration, the Mini would have a massive advantage due to its narrow track and tiny length. But on courses where the gates were wide and there were big speed differentials, the SS would have a big advantage. That's why they sort of try to group similar(ish) cars together.

It's always going to be the case that some cars are more suitable for a certain track, but that should even out over a season.

I think in many cases the advantages are a little overstated too. The times some of the CAM-C cars are capable of is evidence of that!

This grouping of types for street classes makes no sense IMO.

[joelster]

Originally Posted by Msquared

That wouldn't make sense, because on some courses a JCW Mini might be a lot faster than the SS, and on other course it would be slower. For example, if the course was mostly slaloms and offsets with little acceleration, the Mini would have a massive advantage due to its narrow track and tiny length. But on courses where the gates were wide and there were big speed differentials, the SS would have a big advantage. That's why they sort of try to group similar(ish) cars together.

Sounds to me like the course designer should be making a track that balances out.

[VR Baron]

Originally Posted by joelster

Sounds to me like the course designer should be making a track that balances out.

Out here in kali NMCA West they keep it simple. We have compact class, sports car, old and modern muscle and truck class. Race what you brung. Courses are combined large straights and turns with tight turns and transitions to try to make it fare to all as best possible. And all cars modded one way or another to be their best. Drivers have to be on their game for sure

[94boosted]

So joelster & DaveC113 what are your suggestions to reviving FS then? The class is dying, that's a fact. The class was always meant to be a Pony Car class (heavy, high HP, RWD).



- The easy button solution of moving the E90 M3 ZCP out of FS and into BS was contemplated a couple years ago but didn't go forward, so that's out

- The M2C, Supra and likely even the OG M2 are faster than the Track Ponies

- Nobody is competing in base Mustang GT's and Camaro SS's as is because of the aforementioned M3



With this proposal you have a really good shot of greatly improving the turnout in FS at the National level without hurting BS too badly (especially if the C6 Z51 gets dropped in there).

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by 94boosted

So joelster & DaveC113 what are your suggestions to reviving FS then? The class is dying, that's a fact. The class was always meant to be a Pony Car class (heavy, high HP, RWD).



- The easy button solution of moving the E90 M3 ZCP out of FS and into BS was contemplated a couple years ago but didn't go forward, so that's out

- The M2C, Supra and likely even the OG M2 are faster than the Track Ponies

- Nobody is competing in base Mustang GT's and Camaro SS's as is because of the aforementioned M3



With this proposal you have a really good shot of greatly improving the turnout in FS at the National level without hurting BS too badly (especially if the C6 Z51 gets dropped in there).

I think classing street class by type is problematic and it should be by performance.

But I don't really care that much, lol... I got the ELSD tune and ZLE bushings so I'm out of street class anyways.

IME the SLE and M2C seem pretty even. I do BMW club autox races and last year, if my OEM SC3s warmed up, I could beat most of them. My best result would have placed me 2nd in BMW BS in a class of nearly 30 cars. This year when I get my 305 square RE71 setup I think I'll beat all of them... we'll see!

[Msquared]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

I think classing street class by type is problematic and it should be by performance.

In a perfect world it would be easy to just stratify Street classes by PAX, and all cars would always be in the same relative ranking on any course. In the real world, a subcompact FWD with 140hp is going to favor different courses than a 3750lb pony car with 450hp and RWD. It just isn't as simple as you want it to be. If you follow the classes from BS>AS>SS, they pretty much line up like you are saying. But below that there is some grouping by general types because they have different strengths and weaknesses. Again, there's no way around that, especially in Street classes where basically no mods are allowed.

IME the SLE and M2C seem pretty even. I do BMW club autox races and last year, if my OEM SC3s warmed up, I could beat most of them. My best result would have placed me 2nd in BMW BS in a class of nearly 30 cars. This year when I get my 305 square RE71 setup I think I'll beat all of them... we'll see!

So this boils down to local/regional experiences vs national-level competition. Your experience may tell you that the SS 1LE and M2C are even, but when you match up national-caliber drivers in both cars on the same kind of tires, that's not how things turn out. What you find is that the M2C and Supra, at least, are considerably faster than the SS 1LE and any version of a Mustang. The data on this seems clear.

As it is today, the proposed class change would affect almost nobody negatively because nobody serious is running a pony car in FS right now, and those that are running ponies are already up against an overdog car in the M3 (which seems to actually be about even with the track ponies). The move wouldn't' displace anybody. It would, however, give pony cars one Street class where they can compete effectively at the national level. When I said there's not currently a good class for any pony car to compete, I was talking about Street classes. Obviously CAM is a different story, but there are plenty of us who don't want to go down the road of endless modifications to run in a class where literally carbon fiber bodies on tube-frame chassis with $30k engines are actually legal. CAM is fun to watch and fun to compete in if you aren't taking things seriously, but as a competition class it's a hot mess and there's a reason it isn't an official SCCA class.

[joelster]

Originally Posted by 94boosted

So joelster & DaveC113 what are your suggestions to reviving FS then? The class is dying, that's a fact. The class was always meant to be a Pony Car class (heavy, high HP, RWD).



.

We've already told you our solution. Progressively harder PAX's from HS up to SS. One car is dominant in FS then bump it up to the next level.

BtW most SCCA stuff seems to be dying out, not just FS. 2 years ago the Champ Tours would sell out in a few hours and there would be a waiting list. Now they are open registration for a month and there 150 cars Instead of the usual 240. We just had one locally to me.

[VR Baron]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

If you're ever coming through Denver, Stevinson Chevy did it for me for $350.

It's a GMPP product, all the dealer has to do is call GMPP and ask for instructions... should be easy!

If a dealer is refusing I'd contact GMPP and let them know their own dealer is refusing to sell one of their products.

I finally found a dealer near by. Never did this before but said no problem, come on in. Only catch, They have no idea as to cost.

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by VR Baron

I finally found a dealer near by. Never did this before but said no problem, come on in. Only catch, They have no idea as to cost.

Awesome! $350 is what I paid.

[VR Baron]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

Awesome! $350 is what I paid.

Yes, should be that price

[PedalFaster]

Originally Posted by joelster

BtW most SCCA stuff seems to be dying out, not just FS. 2 years ago the Champ Tours would sell out in a few hours and there would be a waiting list. Now they are open registration for a month and there 150 cars Instead of the usual 240. We just had one locally to me.

You may have heard of this thing called COVID... it may be affecting entry counts a teeny tiny bit.

[joelster]

Originally Posted by PedalFaster

You may have heard of this thing called COVID... it may be affecting entry counts a teeny tiny bit.

The last "local" race i did at Akron had 140+ our last local at wny had 110+ both higher than In 2019. People have been itching to get out. UMI autocross challenge sold out in minutes.

[VR Baron]

Originally Posted by joelster

The last "local" race i did at Akron had 140+ our last local at wny had 110+ both higher than In 2019. People have been itching to get out. UMI autocross challenge sold out in minutes.

My nmca events in kali have been sold out in like two minutes since April 2020.