[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

Hmm, I thought that's exactly what I said. EVs start with a carbon handicap due to their higher footprint during manufacturing, which is then gradually offset during their lifetimes by their zero emission "at the tailpipe" and lower overall energy consumption for recharging.

However, if people keep buying a new EV every few years, this incentivizes higher production rates and thus increases the weight of this initial EV burden, even if the lifecycle of the vehicle is long (which remains to be seen btw, the used EV market isn't exactly blooming just yet).

As to the basic question, here's one quick example: https://youtu.be/6RhtiPefVzM

I remember that video. I subscribe to Jason’s channel. He does a great job of explaining things at a level where you don’t have to be an engineer to get it. Even as an engineer myself, I prefer his explanations to most. But in this case, I think his process of simplifying the issue has one basic flaw. He says that besides the battery, the carbon emissions of the ICE car and the EV are the same and sets them the same. He is apparently doing that at the vehicle assembly level, not the content of assembly. He neglects the impact of the engine and exhaust systems in the ICE car. Engine blocks and heads have to be cast and crankshafts have to be cast or forged. Highly carbon emitting processes. Much more so than actually assembling the car. That would either have to be added to the ICE side of the manufacturing equation or subtracted from the EV side of the manufacturing equation.

If, as I presume, he is only looking at the assembly side of the equation, then he has to add to the ICE side (or subtract from the EV side) exhaust system content, since one has it and one does not. This is why I say it can’t be assumed that EVs have higher manufacturing carbon emissions than ICE. I don’t think there is a definitive answer there until you get into the manufacturing process of major subsystems. In other words, what happens when you factor in the foundries?

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by cthulhucaller

Another explanation is that people like different things than other people like.

Camaros are just an area where people who like lots of different things intersect on this forum. I like the rumbling and the wrenching, but would be open to the crazy torgue and the software tweaking too. Just because people have the same car, they aren't going to have the same ideals.

I see opposition to new technology on a very regular basis at work, and have seen it all my life. I remember when fuel injection was the lame thing, and when they started to put computers in cars, everyone freaked out. Anyone here on this forum got past that. Computers in cars ended up being pretty badass. Most people that spent time getting a Quadrajet right, just to have it go wrong will join me on that view.

Camaros are cars, and no matter how they are powered, cars are going to have plenty of opportunities for wrench swinging, modifying, beautifying, and generally being loved by car guys. Whatever the car manufacturers try to send out as black boxes eventually get opened, tweaked, and manipulated by the spirited car guys, and that knowledge keeps on moving around in places like this.

"Stop liking what I don't like" is how we get ourselves into a lot of stupid positions throughout many aspects of our lives. Me? You can like whatever, but if you like some of the stuff I like too, we can hang out and talk about them. The stuff we differ on? We can probably be civil. One of my closest friends is a Mustang guy, but I like him anyway.

Well said, I think some folks are more open minded at this point and willing to accept change. Just because I own a Tesla doesn’t mean I don’t love a big V8, manuals transmission and dual mode exhaust.

The main reason I posted on this thread is because if the future of the Camaro is electric I am curious what a EV Camaro could be like. I really hope it is not some sort of Mach E bologna.

1. RWD only to keep it lighter and balanced like a mid engine car? What will it weigh? Will it look like a Camaro? What will the different trim levels offer in terms of appearance and power/performance?

2. Will it have a LSD unlike the open diffs on the Tesla?

3. Will it have drive modes to relax the nannies? This is a real problem for me on current Teslas. The Tesla is too planted and the chassis is not playful enough. You can buy an add on called a Party Box that disables all the traction and stability control but in an EV that is very dangerous due to the massive instant torque. I am curious how GM will handle this.

4. Will it have mag ride? Only the very expensive Teslas have air suspension at this point. This is where I expect GM with the best chassis and suspension engineers in the world to make the Camaro unmatched.

5. Track mode? How will it work? Tesla has a Track Mode that has been tuned and optimized by Randy Pobst. It is actually quite amazing what can be done in software. Things like increasing braking regen settings to save on the friction brakes, they overclock the AC compressor to help cool the battery, you have a slider from 1-10 to dial in how much front/rear bias you want, same for stability. You can save the custom modes, drift mode, track, etc. you can save your settings for each track and the cameras record everything including all the telemetry data. There is a large aftermarket developing as well. A company called Unplugged Performance makes all kinds of upgrades already. From suspensions to LSDs.

6. Over the air software updates to allow for improvements and upgrades? Remember when MRC received an upgrade and you had to go pay $350 to a dealer to flash the new settings for MRC? That would be a thing of the past. It would be downloaded and installed why you sleep. On the Tesla I received software improvements to Track Mode as well as two 5% power bumps. The car did 0-60 Mph in 3.2 sec when I got it and now it will do 2.9-3.0 flat and I never picked up a wrench.

7. Convertible EV? not sure I have seen one yet?

8. Artificial soundtrack? Will they offer artificial engine noise via a 12 speaker Bose system? Tesla actually emits a high pitch whine from the front induction motor when you put you foot into the accelerator. It is not glorious V8 noise but the whine lets you know electrons are flowing like crazy.

9. Will it have a 2 speed transmission for stronger pull at highway speeds or a single reduction gear like the Tesla to lower cost and complexity?

So even though the powertrain may change hopefully an EV Camaro should still be able to entertain us in many ways.

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

Well said, I think some folks are more open minded at this point and willing to accept change. Just because I own a Tesla doesn’t mean I don’t love a big V8, manuals transmission and dual mode exhaust.

The main reason I posted on this thread is because if the future of the Camaro is electric I am curious what a EV Camaro could be like. I really hope it is not some sort of Mach E bologna.

1. RWD only to keep it lighter and balanced like a mid engine car? What will it weigh? Will it look like a Camaro? What will the different trim levels offer in terms of appearance and power/performance?
2. Will it have a LSD unlike the open diffs on the Tesla?
3. Will it have drive modes to relax the nannies? This is a real problem for me on current Teslas. The Tesla is too planted and the chassis is not playful enough. You can buy an add on called a Party Box that disables all the traction and stability control but in an EV that is very dangerous due to the massive instant torque. I am curious how GM will handle this.
4. Will it have mag ride? Only the very expensive Teslas have air suspension at this point. This is where I expect GM with the best chassis and suspension engineers in the world to make the Camaro unmatched.
5. Track mode? How will it work? Tesla has a Track Mode that has been tuned and optimized by Randy Pobst. It is actually quite amazing what can be done in software. Things like increasing braking regen settings to save on the friction brakes, they overclock the AC compressor to help cool the battery, you have a slider from 1-10 to dial in how much front/rear bias you want, same for stability. You can save the custom modes, drift mode, track, etc. you can save your settings for each track and the cameras record everything including all the telemetry data. There is a large aftermarket developing as well. A company called Unplugged Performance makes all kinds of upgrades already. From suspensions to LSDs.
6. Over the air software updates to allow for improvements and upgrades? Remember when MRC received an upgrade and you had to go pay $350 to a dealer to flash the new settings for MRC? That would be a thing of the past. It would be downloaded and installed why you sleep. On the Tesla I received software improvements to Track Mode as well as to 5% power bumps. The car did 0-60 Mph in 3.2 sec when I got it and now it will do 2.9-3.0 flat and I never picked up a wrench.
7. Convertible EV? not sure I have seen one yet?
8. Artificial soundtrack? Will they offer artificial engine noise via a 12 speaker Bose system? Tesla actually emits a high pitch whine from the front induction motor when you put you foot into the accelerator. It is not glorious V8 noise but the whine lets you know electrons are flowing like crazy.

So even though the powertrain may change hopefully an EV Camaro should still be able to entertain us in many ways.

See that's part of my point. That people could even accept a fake ass engine sound or accept an electric motor in anything with the Camaro badge on it in the first place is absolutely unacceptable.

" Just because I own a Tesla doesn’t mean I don’t love a big V8, manuals transmission and dual mode exhaust" is a copout. They are two completely different ideals and completely diametrically opposed spectrums of the political bs that is ruining our country today.

You are either with one or the other.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by jamala00

If all you are looking for is 0-60 best times, sure get a Tesla. The Tesla has no soul. Will never be one in my driveway.

It is more like 0-100mph and the Tesla M3 Performance still puts down pretty good skidpad numbers for a 4 door sedan. (.95g with the Michelin PS4S tires). What does does a non-1LE Camaro ZL1 put down (1.02g)? The Telsa Model 3 handles like a BMW M3/M4 for comparison.

What you are calling soul is really just the vibration and sounds the exhaust is making. They are great noises but that is all they really are. For every person that loves the noise there is someone else that appreciates the lack of noise. The connectedness you get from a manual gearbox is fantastic but the take rate on a manual transmission now is what, less than 10%? We have no manual in a Corvette anymore. So, if we start comparing DCTs and fast shifting 10-speed transmissions to say no transmission in an EV or possibly a ZF 2-speed like the Porsche Taycan there is no comparison.

So, if we are stuck with an EV Camaro moving forward how do we inject some "soul" into it? How should it drive? How should it look?

[43Camaro]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

See that's part of my point. That people could even accept a fake ass engine sound or accept an electric motor in anything with the Camaro badge on it in the first place is absolutely unacceptable.

" Just because I own a Tesla doesn’t mean I don’t love a big V8, manuals transmission and dual mode exhaust" is a copout. They are two completely different ideals and completely diametrically opposed spectrums of the political bs that is ruining our country today.

You are either with one or the other.

So what's funny is I agree with some of the points above from both perspectives. But overall the Camaro was a lived reality for a lot of people in a certain generations, just like the EV will be a lived reality for a new generations. Just don't use the heritage from the past generation to sell what is so clearly not even in the same lineage/platform/concept as the Camaro.

This is why I don't mind Tesla, because they have created a new brand with new followers and a new idea which I think is great. Don't drag an Iconic Brand/Name into the EV world, the Camaro doesn't belong in the EV word. If EV is the future let the Camaro die a natural death!

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by 43Camaro

Don't drag an Iconic Brand/Name into the EV world, the Camaro doesn't belong in the EV word. If EV is the future let the Camaro die a natural death!

EXACTLY!!!

THIS has been my whole point all along. Go make your electric appliances. Go forth and prosper in your electric toasters.

There's just no way that includes an iconic nameplate like the Camaro.

I will be the first in line to give the Camaro a final burial and proper sendoff to retire the name again, and once and for all, before they even THINK about putting an electric motor where the glorious GM small block belongs.

The Camaro MUST end life as a fire breathing V8. If that is the way it must be, then be it must. Which is why I so forcefully and fully oppose this very thread discussion in this forum.

[redcoats1976]

soooo,not to stir the shit,but how about an e camino? not an SUV,but one that borrows the iconic styling of the 70s el caminos? it might be pretty easy to get a station wagon out of that same chassis too.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by 43Camaro

So what's funny is I agree with some of the points above from both perspectives. But overall the Camaro was a lived reality for a lot of people in a certain generations, just like the EV will be a lived reality for a new generations. Just don't use the heritage from the past generation to sell what is so clearly not even in the same lineage/platform/concept as the Camaro.

This is why I don't mind Tesla, because they have created a new brand with new followers and a new idea which I think is great. Don't drag an Iconic Brand/Name into the EV world, the Camaro doesn't belong in the EV word. If EV is the future let the Camaro die a natural death!

I am fine with this as well. I do not like that Ford leveraged the Mustang brand to help sell an EV but I understand from a marketing perspective why they would do such a thing.

I don't care what they call it as long as it is has the some of the sports car character.

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by redcoats1976

soooo,not to stir the shit,but how about an e camino? not an SUV,but one that borrows the iconic styling of the 70s el caminos? it might be pretty easy to get a station wagon out of that same chassis too.

El Camino is fine. The nameplate died as a Malaise era has-been with no chance at making it through the Malaise era back to dignity like the Camaro did.

[ModernCamaroZ28Fan]

I agree, the Camaro needs to stray away from its heritage if it decides to lose most of its traditional elements, just like it did in the 80s and 90s looks wise.

[cthulhucaller]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

See that's part of my point. That people could even accept a fake ass engine sound or accept an electric motor in anything with the Camaro badge on it in the first place is absolutely unacceptable.

" Just because I own a Tesla doesn’t mean I don’t love a big V8, manuals transmission and dual mode exhaust" is a copout. They are two completely different ideals and completely diametrically opposed spectrums of the political bs that is ruining our country today.

You are either with one or the other.

You ascribe car choices as being politically driven?
I'm out of this thread. There is no talking to you people.

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by ModernCamaroZ28Fan

I agree, the Camaro needs to stray away from its heritage if it decides to lose most of its traditional elements, just like it did in the 80s and 90s looks wise.

In that respect, there's a contingent of Camaro purists who think any Camaro after 1970 is not a true Camaro.

I happen to think the greatest Camaro of all - style wise, to this very day - is the 1970 split bumper SS396.

When they went to the hatchback in '82 the general silhouette wasn't that far off from 1970-81. 1970 was more of a departure from the 1st gen than '82 was from the second gen. The first gen had rear seat windows and a formal roof line that would not return until the 5th gen.

[43Camaro]

Originally Posted by cthulhucaller

You ascribe car choices as being politically driven?
I'm out of this thread. There is no talking to you people.

Seeing how you have only posted 12 times, did you ever really start? Sorry to see a message board has made you vacate a thread. Not sure about the term "you people", are you referring to people with an opposite viewpoint?

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by cthulhucaller

You ascribe car choices as being politically driven?
I'm out of this thread. There is no talking to you people.

Truth hurts - Touch a nerve did I?