[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by shaffe

This ^ You talk about a performance car to anybody and one of the first questions they will ask is how fast it is or they will get their impression on a ride where you stomp the accelerator. Try talking ring times or lap times to a non car person and you may as well be speaking ancient egyptian to them



While I sort of agree with the above, I think a lot of people especially enthusiasts forget that the V-8 in camaro/mustang/challenger only represents about 30-40% of what is purchased. I would love to pound my fist on the desk and say it has to have a V8 or it isnt a real XYZ but the fact is we are already the minority.

I guess I need to clarify myself - it needs to OFFER a non-turbo, 4 stroke internal combustion V8 and real manual transmission.

I'm fine with the lesser engines existing for those who don't want the V8.

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by Number 3

You are assuming someone is contemplating a Camaro w/o a V8 and a manual manual transmission (as opposed to the DCT, an automated manual). The worst part is not that someone is considering that, but that they are also more likely considering the 2nd demise of the Camaro in our lifetime.

So the question is an electric Camaro or no Camaro at all? And for the sake of argument the electric Camaro would drive and handle like a Camaro without the noise. And yes, there are many that would consider than an abomination. For me, it's not the propulsion system or number of cylinders that define the Camaro. I've driven many, many 4 and 6 cylinder Camaros and they were still Camaros.

But from history, the Iron Duke in a Camaro is a far worse abomination IMO than an electric motor (or 3).

And historically, there was a FWD Camaro considered at one point a while ago. Didn't stick, thank goodness. GM80 program. My recollection was it didn't pass it's first barrier test and they dumped it.

https://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/...-video-287050/

And the Probe was almost the Mustang too.

I'd rather have a leaky, buzzy, smoking, underpowered and overheating Iron Duke than a 1500 hp electric anything for the same price. Fact.

Again, you still do NOT get it, and please quit trying.

People who come on to this website and push anything electric, hydrogen, hybrid, or autonomous are like libs who want to go hunting with Ted Nugent to get his autograph then think they're going get him to change his views.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

I guess I need to clarify myself - it needs to OFFER a non-turbo, 4 stroke internal combustion V8 and real manual transmission.

I'm fine with the lesser engines existing for those who don't want the V8.

I can agree with that that it should continue to offer a combo like that as long as possible.

I was just saying people need to not be so against alternate powertrains because without them the cars like this will cease to exist

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by shaffe

I can agree with that that it should continue to offer a combo like that as long as possible.

I was just saying people need to not be so against alternate powertrains because without them the cars like this will cease to exist

Yeah you probably still won't like my answer.

Camaro should not exist if there's not an internal combustion, naturally aspriated V8 engine and real 3 pedal manual transmission available.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

And the Probe was almost the Mustang too.

I'd rather have a leaky, buzzy, smoking, underpowered and overheating Iron Duke than a 1500 hp electric anything for the same price. Fact.

Again, you still do NOT get it, and please quit trying.

People who come on to this website and push anything electric, hydrogen, hybrid, or autonomous are like libs who want to go hunting with Ted Nugent to get his autograph then think they're going get him to change his views.

Oh I get it. Believe me. I certainly don't expect you to know my background or preferences.

I just enjoy the conversations and different points of view. It's the main reason I frequent this website, while I wait for a Camaro that meats MY needs (today's does not). EVs are coming slow but sure and in the end your opinion matters as much as mine. Actually we are closer alike than you think. I don't have an EV and really have no plans to but I do entertain the thought of one and what it could do in sporty coupe rather than an SUV or Pickup.

But I will admit to not getting a preference for a 90 HP Iron Duke over pretty much anything else. To extend that further it's not far from saying if you have to choose between an EV and your 15 hp lawn tractor, you'd drive the tractor. Yes, the Iron Duke was actually that bad, lol.

But you also shouldn't think that every single person on Camaro 5 and 6 is like you either. Go back and read this thread. There is interest because their are other opinions and points of view.

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Oh I get it. Believe me. I certainly don't expect you to know my background or preferences.

I just enjoy the conversations and different points of view. It's the main reason I frequent this website, while I wait for a Camaro that meats MY needs (today's does not). EVs are coming slow but sure and in the end your opinion matters as much as mine. Actually we are closer alike than you think. I don't have an EV and really have no plans to but I do entertain the thought of one and what it could do in sporty coupe rather than an SUV or Pickup.

But I will admit to not getting a preference for a 90 HP Iron Duke over pretty much anything else. To extend that further it's not far from saying if you have to choose between an EV and your 15 hp lawn tractor, you'd drive the tractor. Yes, the Iron Duke was actually that bad, lol.

But you also shouldn't think that every single person on Camaro 5 and 6 is like you either. Go back and read this thread. There is interest because their are other opinions and points of view.

The thing about EVs that people continue to miss the point on, and why the internal combustion engine is the only engine that should ever be used in a car - ANY car - is because the electric motor itself is soulless. It doesn't matter who makes it - ANY of the hundreds of companies around the world tha make electric motors - they make no sound. They have no distinction. Your kids won't sit up at two in the morning trying to out-guess each other whether it's a Ford 302 or a GM 3800 that drives past the house just on the exhaust note. So by that, no one who wants electric motors is really interested in cars. They can say they are, but they're not. Electric motors are all the same. Boring.

And technically useless. Because it takes little ingenuity to make one go fast. You can make one in your basement. You won't be opening the Summit Racing catalog or going to their website to look at all the different rockers or valve springs you can chose from if you want to really build an engine. Your electric motor is already faster in your $15,000 Kia. It's not even comparable.

There is not one good thing about electric motors in cars. They're for the people who don't care or know a thing about cars and simply want to get from point A to point B.

This is not the conversation for Camaro owners. It's like a conductor showing up to a concert hall ready to conduct the orchestra for a Mozart symphony and on the stage and plugged in ready to rock is a Led Zeppelin cover band.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

The thing about EVs that people continue to miss the point on, and why the internal combustion engine is the only engine that should ever be used in a car - ANY car - is because the electric motor itself is soulless. It doesn't matter who makes it - ANY of the hundreds of companies around the world tha make electric motors - they make no sound. They have no distinction. Your kids won't sit up at two in the morning trying to out-guess each other whether it's a Ford 302 or a GM 3800 that drives past the house just on the exhaust note. So by that, no one who wants electric motors is really interested in cars. They can say they are, but they're not. Electric motors are all the same. Boring.

And technically useless. Because it takes little ingenuity to make one go fast. You can make one in your basement. You won't be opening the Summit Racing catalog or going to their website to look at all the different rockers or valve springs you can chose from if you want to really build an engine. Your electric motor is already faster in your $15,000 Kia. It's not even comparable.

There is not one good thing about electric motors in cars. They're for the people who don't care or know a thing about cars and simply want to get from point A to point B.

This is not the conversation for Camaro owners. It's like a conductor showing up to a concert hall ready to conduct the orchestra for a Mozart symphony and on the stage and plugged in ready to rock is a Led Zeppelin cover band.

You might want to do some digging on some of your points.

There are a lot of Tesla owners that "play" and "tune" their cars and go to the track.

https://electrek.co/2020/06/10/tesla...eration-boost/

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...une-your-tesla

https://www.mountainpassperformance....-your-model-3/

And you also state it isn't a conversation for Camaro owners, yet many here support the conversation.

As for soul? If all that make soul is the sound and vibration and having to move your right arm and left foot, then I have to disagree. Yes, revving a small block V8 is a wonderful sound. But even I have to admit a properly tuned DCT is an awesome thing to drive. I'd actually prefer it over a manual as it is a manual, you just don't have to move your arms and legs.

I'm actually cool that people buying Teslas are actually into the technology the car brings as well as the performance. My old boss, fairly old school, just bought an Model S to see where the tech was and what it did. He has pretty much had his mind changed.

I get where you are coming from. There are just fewer and fewer stalwarts out there every year. And frankly the sales of the Camaro pretty much tell the tale. The greatest Camaro ever, the best car in the segment and it ain't moving.

[Puddin]

Originally Posted by Number 3

You might want to do some digging on some of your points.

There are a lot of Tesla owners that "play" and "tune" their cars and go to the track.

https://electrek.co/2020/06/10/tesla...eration-boost/

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...une-your-tesla

https://www.mountainpassperformance....-your-model-3/

And you also state it isn't a conversation for Camaro owners, yet many here support the conversation.

As for soul? If all that make soul is the sound and vibration and having to move your right arm and left foot, then I have to disagree. Yes, revving a small block V8 is a wonderful sound. But even I have to admit a properly tuned DCT is an awesome thing to drive. I'd actually prefer it over a manual as it is a manual, you just don't have to move your arms and legs.

I'm actually cool that people buying Teslas are actually into the technology the car brings as well as the performance. My old boss, fairly old school, just bought an Model S to see where the tech was and what it did. He has pretty much had his mind changed.

I get where you are coming from. There are just fewer and fewer stalwarts out there every year. And frankly the sales of the Camaro pretty much tell the tale. The greatest Camaro ever, the best car in the segment and it ain't moving.

Yep just look up the Tesla Racing Channel on youtube. He has countless videos showing what all he's done to his and proves just how fast these electric cars will scoot. I very seriously considered trading my 16 2SS in for a Tesla after my oil pump failure but the price wasn't right and this car is almost paid for so I sunk the money back into it and made it a little faster.

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by Number 3

You might want to do some digging on some of your points.

There are a lot of Tesla owners that "play" and "tune" their cars and go to the track.

https://electrek.co/2020/06/10/tesla...eration-boost/

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...une-your-tesla

https://www.mountainpassperformance....-your-model-3/

And you also state it isn't a conversation for Camaro owners, yet many here support the conversation.

As for soul? If all that make soul is the sound and vibration and having to move your right arm and left foot, then I have to disagree. Yes, revving a small block V8 is a wonderful sound. But even I have to admit a properly tuned DCT is an awesome thing to drive. I'd actually prefer it over a manual as it is a manual, you just don't have to move your arms and legs.

I'm actually cool that people buying Teslas are actually into the technology the car brings as well as the performance. My old boss, fairly old school, just bought an Model S to see where the tech was and what it did. He has pretty much had his mind changed.

I get where you are coming from. There are just fewer and fewer stalwarts out there every year. And frankly the sales of the Camaro pretty much tell the tale. The greatest Camaro ever, the best car in the segment and it ain't moving.

Oh we've already discussed at length why the Camaro isn't moving. There's no sense in going down that road again because it will only stir up more arguing and name calling when you refuse to accept the facts.

It has nothing to do with "stalwarts".

And seriously, what electric motor has soul? Are you kidding me? Come on man, you can't seriously be that out of touch.

I mean, I get if you want an automatic instead of a manual but without the sound, feel, and lumpy idle then what's the point? It ain't a Camaro man! Seriously!!

Again. Here we are, Jimmy Page and Robert Plant are ready to tear the house down and you show up with your Beethoven score.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

Oh we've already discussed at length why the Camaro isn't moving. There's no sense in going down that road again because it will only stir up more arguing and name calling when you refuse to accept the facts.

It has nothing to do with "stalwarts".

And seriously, what electric motor has soul? Are you kidding me? Come on man, you can't seriously be that out of touch.

I mean, I get if you want an automatic instead of a manual but without the sound, feel, and lumpy idle then what's the point? It ain't a Camaro man! Seriously!!

Again. Here we are, Jimmy Page and Robert Plant are ready to tear the house down and you show up with your Beethoven score.

LOL what "facts" am I missing on sales? Oh are you one of the folks that think a TV ad will make more profit for GM and they just aren't smart enough to realize it? Still can't believe someone on here was actually so violently angry over that point that called out my wife, her career in the auto industry in Marketing and her 2 degrees as not smart enough to know what everyone on this website seems to know, which is simply the purest form of internet. You don't agree with me so I discount everything you know and have done in your career. She laughed, she really did.

Never said the electric motor had soul. Ever.

But let's be very clear, I've done this for a living for a long time now. A vehicle is FAR more than what propels it. Of these, ride, handling, steering and braking are equally critical factors that must be balanced and do provide soul.

I can put an LT1 into a POS mobile that doesn't ride handle or brake well and you tell me how much soul it has. Zip, unless you like sitting in a parking lot revving your engine.

I can give you a 150 hp Miata and on a track, that will give you all the soul you could ask for.

You are just picking on one attribute of a great car, it's powertrain. Way more to it than that.

Also not sure what Page and Plant have to do with Beethoven other than they were all fabulous musicians and I'd sit through and enjoy a concert of either.

[dpevans]

Originally Posted by Frankie18SS

I'm absolutely on board with an all electric Camaro. Honestly, my biggest fear isn't the acceleration, they've proven that. My biggest fear is the weight will make it handle like crap. We finally got a Camaro that can be a track killer, don't want to see that go away now.

For all the naysayers, if you're already driving an automatic, you're halfway there. Play engine noises over the radio and you won't be able to tell the difference.

I think the teslas handle real well. All the weight is in the battery sitting low in the car and the independent motors of all wheel drive is something that mechanics can never reproduce. Electric Camaro I am on board. Doesn't mean I still can't keep both.

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by Number 3

But let's be very clear, I've done this for a living for a long time now. A vehicle is FAR more than what propels it. Of these, ride, handling, steering and braking are equally critical factors that must be balanced and do provide soul.

I can put an LT1 into a POS mobile that doesn't ride handle or brake well and you tell me how much soul it has.

I guess you’d be surprised to find out it actually happens. And a lot.

People do this all the time. Rebuild big old motors or buy new motors and put them in crappy cars and drive the heck out of them. There’s a whole industry of this. There’s magazines and YouTube channels dedicated to buying crate motors and installing them into what for all intents and purposes is junk. And it’s a thing of pride for the people who do it.

Many of the people doing it are younger than me, and I’m 43.

[Xaxas]

Nope.

I support the idea of electric vehicles for soccer mom boxes, exonoboxes and luxury vehicles, but they are inherently the antithesis of performance vehicles for the general enthusiast who likes to tinker with their car.

I'm a software developer so I spend all my day coding on my computer, I don't want fancy gadgets and systems in my car because that I can change and more often than not crappy developers are strangled by company demands leading to even worse software that only has to work at a surface level, now imagine if your car is like this, instead of modifying an engine all you do you change the electric motor and most of the job you do it in a computer, hell no, I like tinkering with cars because it's an activity I have control over, if I change a part I can have a pretty accurate guess of how it will affect the car because it's mechanical, and before you mention tuning, it is not at all the same as programming as you are working within the parameters that the parameters of the car ECU and other computers.

This is not to mention that sound and shaking are part of the experience, you are inside a living dragon that breathes fire and it responds to your command, it has a temper and is unique on their own, and you can make them even more unique, more viscous, do you think there will be iconic and loved electric motors like we have engines, say LS/small block, coyote, HEMI, Porsche flat 6, flat plane supercar V8/10/12?

Also, if you touch a hot engine, you might get a nasty burn at worst for a week or 2, but I hope you've earned a lot of favor with the deity you decide to pray to should you touch an electric cars system, and they will only get more powerful in the future.

[nicktechla]

Originally Posted by Xaxas

Nope.

I support the idea of electric vehicles for soccer mom boxes, exonoboxes and luxury vehicles, but they are inherently the antithesis of performance vehicles for the general enthusiast who likes to tinker with their car.

it will be a different tinkering.. nobody liked EFI and ABS and stuff when it first came out.. I remember everyone bitched that they needed a laptop to diagnose their car.. now pretty sure you don't see anyone building hot rods without EFI these days..

So I imagine in the future, people will be tinkering with the software, changing electronic components, etc. It will just be different. I don't think people are going to give up tinkering. There are already some people out there building bad ass electric drift cars and stuff.