[v8]

Originally Posted by Elite Engineering

v8, I'll answer each point below inside your quote:








"Great post but I will clarify a few things. GM designed the system to flow around 3.5 or so SCFM. They did this with a 1/8" restrictor placed inside their PCV valve, so with a 1/8" restrictor somewhere we can get that 3.5 SCFM The OEM size is 3mm, we go just slightly larger to meet the 3.5 CFM goal. That is slightly more than a stock engine needs, but not excessive. This works for up to 1000 hp plus FI applications.

Now don't quote me but I think you need about 20"hg for a 1/8 orifice to flow around 3.5. If you are accelerating (not racing or anything) you are not getting 3.5 SCFM because you are going to be at less than 20"hg Its actually in my video, I made a remark somewhere.
Correct. Anytime a NA engine accelerates, or is at WOT, vacuum drops to near zero, even though a tremendous amount of incoming air is enetering. This is due to the reversion pulses that are created by the cam lobe overlap. Exhaust valve is not fully closed before the intake valve starts to open. This aids in scavenging, but no real usable vacuum is present. So we use a secondary vacuum source that takes over when IM vacuum drops below the vacuum generated by the Venturi barb. The checkvalves will open and close automatically to always default to the strongest suction source. This then provides full time evacuation unlike most every other can that solely relies of IM vacuum for evacuation suction.

The flow is not constant after you install a catch can. The one commonality is that we all use the throttle body for suction. Depending on throttle position you get maximum vacuum at deceleration with throttle closed, then idle is next, then when you drive the vacuum gets less the more you press on the gas. At wide open throttle you have virtually no vacuum. Thats why Elite and me use that second line to take over when the throttle body pretty much has no vacuum.
Exactly. Otherwise you not only allow pressure to build during these periods, but your also leaving most of the contaminants entering in the crankcase to contaminate the oil and increase wear. A very critical function most can sellers do NOT take into consideration.

Where I installed my restrictor makes a big difference.

1st, at WOT the Elite system (secondary line) has to suck through the whole system (including the restrictor)

In mine, the secondary line bypasses the restrictor so the secondary line has no restrictor (much higher flow) I did this for four reasons

1. I don't believe there is much vacuum there so we need all we can get (no way that secondary line is going to produce about 20"hg of vacuum), I believe that high of vacuum would collapse that rubber elbow going to the throttle body. We are probably getting a few inches at best so we need maximum flow. (less vacuum means we need a wider diameter to flow)

2. At WOT there is more blowby so you need more evacuation

3. Secondary line will pretty much operates only at WOT, or large engine loads, so its barely used.

4. I can adjust flow very easily by drilling out the restrictor a bit if I want. ZX-10R caught onto this.

There is a pressure drop across the restrictor so things are different before and after it.

If we want to get even more technical we have to remember the pressure drop across a restrictive opening is proportional to the length of the restrictive section, and inversely proportional to the diameter of that section. So movement of the restrictor can do a number of things depending on where it is placed. You have to take into all that feet of tubing you are installing under your hood, it will effect flow. (suck though a foot of garden hose and then try again when its 10 feet long - do at your own risk, I do not take responsibility if anyone does this, but you get the idea)


Sorry for the delay in my responses guys I've been busy with a few other things.

Its great to see the interest."


Excellent post! One thing to point out, the secondary suction source is NOT from a restriction of the air fliter. That would be a negative in so many ways. We use the Venturi Effect, capaple or generating over 28" of vacuum in ideal conditions, but here it is generally good for from as low as 2-3 to 6-8". Not the level of a belt driven vacuum pump, which is by far the best for a big boost build, but it is designed for the street.


The size of the hose can make a difference as v8 pointed out as well, and the standard hose is 3/8" id, which os equal to -8. We also use -10 for the Ultra if specified, but the connections at the valve cover/valley cover (depending on engine) are all 5/16 id. Good contributions!


And for the links that did not work, here is the oil analysis:


https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/j392/tech17/.highres/Falcon%20long%20term%20testing_zps7l9mvzrs.jpg




And the disparity between can designs:


We are on the right same miles, same vehicle, the other common billet can is on the left.


https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/j392/tech17/.highres/JLT%20LEFT%20RX%20RIGHT_zpsmltwd0tu.jpg



I probably missed a few things, but ask more questions.

Great follow up!!!!! I love the design of your catch can and see why its patented. The E1 I use on my truck works great, and the APEX (similar design as I mentioned earlier, that I believe infringed on your patent, and is no longer sold) has some differences to your regular can; however you EX-2 may be better. The only reason I used that APEX can on my instal was that it was on my 5th gen ZL1, then on my Hellcat, so I put it on the LT4 now as I sold the Hellcat, and had it laying around and I know its a great design. I'm not in the business of selling catch cans, so I just want the best for my car, thats it.

I'm still studying the design and I have some questions that may get very technical, so once I have time I will reach out to you. I also want to test some of your other products that I believe make the system better. I will reach out.

Thanks!!!

[ZX-10R]

Originally Posted by Elite Engineering

Excellent post! One thing to point out, the secondary suction source is NOT from a restriction of the air fliter. That would be a negative in so many ways. We use the Venturi Effect, capaple or generating over 28" of vacuum in ideal conditions, but here it is generally good for from as low as 2-3 to 6-8".

Jason - are you saying the restrictor under the blower creates a venturi effect that increases suction locally?

[v8]

Originally Posted by ZX-10R

In addition to the above, it's obviously much easier to change restrictors (or even add a small flow throttling valve) on the clean side.

This is also an argument to install the can in front as opposed to routing the hose around the blower (I used about 6 ft). As far as pressure drop, it's obviously flow dependent so I would need to run the numbers for 3/8" hose at 3 cfm

You get it, at one point I was thinking of ditching the restrictor and installing a variable flow valve, where I could adjust things with a flow meter to get things perfect. I was going to put that in another post, but I though I would get a lot of weird looks, glad you brought it up, as I was thinking about it during my install.

[Chris 2018 ZL1 A10]

Originally Posted by v8

Hey Chris you are definitely doing some thinking here so you got your thinking cap on. You are 1/2 right in that there is continuous vacuum caused by the supercharger, but that is only under the blower (where the original PCV valve was)

You wrote "Furthermore, the SC at WOT probably creates vacuum in the intake similarly to what the engine creates in the manifold at idle." Not at all, and I'm not sure how to explain this without, but it doesn't.

Once you use the throttle body vacuum, which we are all using, you have to look at the engine like its N/A as you are taking the vacuum from the behind the throttle plate. The vacuum under the booster is no longer available to us as we put a diverter valve in there. You are %100 right with the check valves, and I use them on my set up and you have them on yours. EVERYONE should have them.

Once your engine uses the secondary line, that means the check valve is closed for the primary line, so it does not matter what is going on in the blower (very simply), or anywhere else..... all you have now is suction from the secondary line, ignore EVERYTHING else because your check valve has closed the throttle body off (remember this is your main source of vacuum, its gone now).

So the question becomes, with the secondary line being the only source of vacuum do you
A. Want to have it be restricted?
B. Want more flow?

If you think the secondary line provides enough vacuum then use a restrictor, if you think the secondary line does not provide enough vacuum then don't.

I think I may have to do a video on the LT4 PCV operation LOL Seeing it all on a white board with some good editing may help, heck it may even help me because when I do my videos I have to really think them through and take my time.

Hi V8,

My “Thinking Cap” has been wrong before, especially in my previous opinion about CC’s and a past assertion that ALL dogs are REALLY Vegans.

I simply assumed that the SC at WOT was creating a significant amount of suction in the air-intake sufficient enough for the secondary CC line to make good use of. You obviously know more than I so I’ll accept that my thinking is flawed, I guess I just don’t understand it.

Thanks,
Chris

[ZX-10R]

Elite does need to redesign the PCV so the outlet is at an angle (like the MM). With the MM you can install it with a box end wrench and then install the hose barb. Elite requires the hose barb to be ground down which then reduces the length available for clamping - not good

[20Bluezl1]

Originally Posted by ZX-10R

Elite does need to redesign the PCV so the outlet is at an angle (like the MM). With the MM you can install it with a box end wrench and then install the hose barb. Elite requires the hose barb to be ground down which then reduces the length available for clamping - not good

I agree that is why I was thinking if there is a way to use MM PCV and Elite can, but not sure what it would take. I think you can just put the restrictor on but would it be the correct one.

Has anyone used Elite can and MM PCV valve?

[ZX-10R]

20Blue, I can sell you my MM PCV for $30 if interested - doubt I will use it now. I also have an MM radiator mount bracket.

You can buy the restrictor on Elite's website and install it as V8 describes in his video

[v8]

Originally Posted by 20Bluezl1

I agree that is why I was thinking if there is a way to use MM PCV and Elite can, but not sure what it would take. I think you can just put the restrictor on but would it be the correct one.

Has anyone used Elite can and MM PCV valve?

This was answered a long time ago in my video folks, that's what I was doing all along.

On my build I used
The Mightymouse Diverter and the restrictor from Elite, you can hook up ANY can you want. That was the basis for my video, the catch can in my video could have been anyone one you chose. The brand of catch can used was irrelevant, thats what I was trying to explain, I was showing how I felt it was best to make your own lines, hook it up, and what parts to use. No one seemed to care, as everyone thought it was too much trouble and wanted an all in one kit.

If anyone asks if it was an actual "Elite Can", no it was an Apex which I believe infringed on Elites patent so Apex had to stop making the can as it was too similar.


I have to learn to explain better, as no one from here really got it when I first posted the video a while ago, and the thread kinda went off the rails.

[v8]

Originally Posted by Chris 2018 ZL1 A10

Hi V8,

My “Thinking Cap” has been wrong before, especially in my previous opinion about CC’s and a past assertion that ALL dogs are REALLY Vegans.

I simply assumed that the SC at WOT was creating a significant amount of suction in the air-intake sufficient enough for the secondary CC line to make good use of. You obviously know more than I so I’ll accept that my thinking is flawed, I guess I just don’t understand it.

Thanks,
Chris

Hey no worries, I think I may make a video fulling explaining the LT4 PCV system. I think a whiteboard style video, like "Engineering Explained" style video would really help people understand the system. I mean a lot of people don't even realize there is an oil separator or trap right under the blower that is being used, its just not %100 so the catch can gets to further refine the air.

By the way, I have two little dogs and sometimes I think they might be vegans LOL You have put way more thought into this that most people do so hats off to you buddy.

[ZX-10R]

Originally Posted by v8

This was answered a long time ago in my video folks, that's what I was doing all along.

On my build I used
The Mightymouse Diverter and the restrictor from Elite, you can hook up ANY can you want.

Would be very interesting to compare performance (i.e. liquid volume collected) of Elite can/restrictor under the blower vs your method after say 2000 miles. Otherwise this is all armchair QB. At least Elite is offering to compare performance to the competition.

White boards are great and all, most people here just want the facts in a minimum of time. If you want someone to watch your videos, they have to be well organized and succinct.

[Elite Engineering]

Originally Posted by 20Bluezl1

Elite, do you have any input on the above questions regarding for PCV valve not being fully ported compared to MM.

To clarify a few things.


First, the MM will allow far too much flow so it will actually allow more oil to be pulled from the crankcase. The proper flow for a V8 sized crankcase is 3-3.5 CFM, and that's why our fixed orifice is slightly larger than stock to achieve the proper flow. You NEVER want to allow full vacuum flow on the crankcase as this pulls in excessive oil. And as the MM is such an inefficient internal design and only traps a small amount vs what enters it, you are doing little to prevent KR from oil mist. But as they work under the assumption that allowing pressure to build and vent, it is probably needed to avoid seal failures. This will also play havoc with short term fuel trims as far more air is entering than is expected. We want to control the rate of flow as the industry has determined. No assumptions here like others. Science only.


As for the user with the JLT, that can allows far more to pass through than it traps as this shows from the same car, same miles:


JLT left, our design right:


https://hosting.photobucket.com/albu...psmltwd0tu.jpg


So there is a huge disparity in what a "catchcan" traps. And most just look and see they caught something and assume that is a benefit. With a truly effective and efficient separator you wont find ANY oil coating your IM as it works its way out when ingestion is stopped. So most are thinking they are helping, but a GDI engine cannot tolerate any but the smallest amount of ingestion.


As for power lost and regained. At Chris's level of coking, I estimate he will regain 8-14 whp after a cleaning. Here is a LT1 at 20k miles that regained app. 20 whp. Same day, same dyno:


https://hosting.photobucket.com/albu...psudzvlz5x.jpg


And his valves looked like this before cleaning:


https://hosting.photobucket.com/albu...psuvonhsxx.jpg


Here is a picture of Chris's:


https://hosting.photobucket.com/albu...pscexl1eee.jpg


So, as his is boosted and the 20 whp regained was NA, I assume the boost is going to overcome some of the disruption caused by his coking. So it's possible he could regain that much. And we have never done a study on X amount of miles equals x amount of power loss, as every engine is different. Best to do your own before and after. Dyno before and then clean manually, and same day dyno the after on the same dyno and you should have a good idea. It's going to be directly related to the severity of the deposits. Chris only has app. 4500 miles on his I believe.


So unlike some others, we DON'T play games. All is based on science and we don't blindly follow others, we lead.


Email direct for ANY technical questions: Tech@EliteEngineeringUSA.com

[v8]

Originally Posted by ZX-10R

Would be very interesting to compare performance (i.e. liquid volume collected) of Elite can/restrictor under the blower vs your method after say 2000 miles. Otherwise this is all armchair QB. At least Elite is offering to compare performance to the competition.

White boards are great and all, most people here just want the facts in a minimum of time. If you want someone to watch your videos, they have to be well organized and succinct.

Thats a great idea to do a side by side for 2000 miles, but then I'm going to get the guy who says the 2000miles on one can were not the same 2000 miles on the another, it wasn't identical conditions........ Temp/Drive style etc. You get what I'm saying I hope.

When you say at least Elite is at least offering to compare performance to the competition that is great. I'm not sure if you were expecting anything from me? I'm not sure how to take that as I'm not selling catch cans, and at this time have not offered anything for sale. In addition, I was not trying to compete with Elite as I think they have fabulous catch cans, and I own their products, and have mentioned that before. So I don't know what you mean here. I just provided my personal opinion on why I thought the way I hooked up a catch can was best. Doesn't mean its the best, it was open for discussion, and it was just an opinion I shared.

This particular video was geared at pretty much just showing how you could hook up any can, and I focus on showing how to lift the blower, as I don't think there is a better video on how to lift the blower out there at the current time.

When I make my vids I try very hard to make them "well organized and succinct" but it is really hard to strike a balance between technical/practical/quick, as there are so many people who think differently. I have done vids where I tried to keep it simple and got lots of technical questions, and other times visa versa so it depends on the viewer. I never really know so I can't cater to just one crowd.

For example, I did a video on how to replace some speakers in a Honda Civic, shot it in a day, had my wife hold the phone while I shot the vid. I posted it about 8 months ago and its got over 20K views, and it had no where the effort this one had so you just never know what people want, or like.

Maybe you are part of the crowd that just wants the facts and does not care about the science behind it, "just give me the goods" and I appreciate if you are that person, I'm cool with that. Engineering Explained on youtube uses a whiteboard and has 2.65 million followers so some people must like that?? Not saying I want to go there, just trying to make a point.

I was thinking about the restrictor under the blower vs the way I hooked mine up and I think the clearest and simplest way to explain it is:

The primary line should pretty much be the same, Elite will have a little less flow, as the restrictor is prior to the catch can and all the tubing so you have to take that all into account when you calculate flow, but honestly I think its probably negligible.

The secondary will flow more because there is no restriction, that's obvious.

So for someone who rarely goes into boost or drives their car hard, this secondary line is almost never used anyway so no biggie, but if you drive your car hard, or modify it, you would probably want more flow. That's my opinion.

[v8]

Originally Posted by Elite Engineering

To clarify a few things.


First, the MM will allow far too much flow so it will actually allow more oil to be pulled from the crankcase. The proper flow for a V8 sized crankcase is 3-3.5 CFM, and that's why our fixed orifice is slightly larger than stock to achieve the proper flow. You NEVER want to allow full vacuum flow on the crankcase as this pulls in excessive oil. And as the MM is such an inefficient internal design and only traps a small amount vs what enters it, you are doing little to prevent KR from oil mist. But as they work under the assumption that allowing pressure to build and vent, it is probably needed to avoid seal failures. This will also play havoc with short term fuel trims as far more air is entering than is expected. We want to control the rate of flow as the industry has determined. No assumptions here like others. Science only.


As for the user with the JLT, that can allows far more to pass through than it traps as this shows from the same car, same miles:


JLT left, our design right:


https://hosting.photobucket.com/albu...psmltwd0tu.jpg


So there is a huge disparity in what a "catchcan" traps. And most just look and see they caught something and assume that is a benefit. With a truly effective and efficient separator you wont find ANY oil coating your IM as it works its way out when ingestion is stopped. So most are thinking they are helping, but a GDI engine cannot tolerate any but the smallest amount of ingestion.


As for power lost and regained. At Chris's level of coking, I estimate he will regain 8-14 whp after a cleaning. Here is a LT1 at 20k miles that regained app. 20 whp. Same day, same dyno:


https://hosting.photobucket.com/albu...psudzvlz5x.jpg


And his valves looked like this before cleaning:


https://hosting.photobucket.com/albu...psuvonhsxx.jpg


Here is a picture of Chris's:


https://hosting.photobucket.com/albu...pscexl1eee.jpg


So, as his is boosted and the 20 whp regained was NA, I assume the boost is going to overcome some of the disruption caused by his coking. So it's possible he could regain that much. And we have never done a study on X amount of miles equals x amount of power loss, as every engine is different. Best to do your own before and after. Dyno before and then clean manually, and same day dyno the after on the same dyno and you should have a good idea. It's going to be directly related to the severity of the deposits. Chris only has app. 4500 miles on his I believe.


So unlike some others, we DON'T play games. All is based on science and we don't blindly follow others, we lead.


Email direct for ANY technical questions: Tech@EliteEngineeringUSA.com

Excellent post!!!!

[ZX-10R]

Originally Posted by v8

I was thinking about the restrictor under the blower vs the way I hooked mine up and I think the clearest and simplest way to explain it is:

The primary line should pretty much be the same, Elite will have a little less flow, as the restrictor is prior to the catch can and all the tubing so you have to take that all into account when you calculate flow, but honestly I think its probably negligible.

Flow in the system is constant assuming the restrictor is placed before the can. If it's installed on the clean side, now you're now playing with multiple variables (assuming dual line set-up Elite is using). I will probably relocate the can to the front to reduce hose length, otherwise Jason explained it well in my opinion. Putting the restrictor under the blower keeps excessive oil from getting sucked into the intake line to the can.

if you drive your car hard, or modify it, you would probably want more flow. That's my opinion.

If you want more flow you need a bigger can, that's the problem - there's really no place to put it.