[Jeb114]

Perfect review of the problem.......Great Post. Number 3

[90503]

I can pretty much get my head around the rationale for Camaro not advertising. The powers that be have run the numbers, are trying to make a profit, and advertising on TV at least just doesn't make sense.

As number3 puts it "They know what they are doing, we don't..." etc..when it comes to advertising budgets. Which makes me wonder and question the "they know what they are doing" in regards to Cadillac. Where are these know-it-all advertising brains at GM when it comes to Cadillac? Sales are atrocious, yet their budget for engineering, new models, new engines, and advertising seems unlimited. Cadillac builds and throws away more of everything car related than any make in history, it seems, including money on advertising. Yet there seem to be no explanations or consequences for the supposed frugal, profit oriented, "know what they are doing" types at GM.

My point is this, Cadillac seems to have been an epic fail and loser in all departments of auto manufacturing yet it goes on and on unabated. Is GM blind to this and only cares about profit and advertising research when it comes to Camaro?

I think the Camaro has been given a raw deal and the short end of the stick. Cadillac and Camaro are two polar opposites in the world of GM and advertising "knowing what they are doing". I'm not buying that argument. If anything close to what they have attempted with Cadillac had been applied to Camaro, GM would realize more profit and start to look like they know what they are doing.

You can't tell me "they know what they are doing, we don't" when it comes to advertising. The Cadillac model negates that argument.

[closs2sx]

The reason the Gen 5 camaro sold so well was because it was new and exciting and we hadn't seen a camaro or firebird for that matter for almost 8 yrs. Every camaro follower bought one and even a bunch of firebird followers. The hp was higher then anything dodge had to offer at the time but the gt500 was king in that department. Camaro out sold dodge but even with it being all new and back from an 8 yr hibernation it only matched the mustang and it would not have done that if they brought it out in 2003.
I buy a car on performance alone I don't even consider trunk space or visibility. If you ask a race car driver if he wants a winning car or a car that has a comfortable seat and you can see out of it better but you won't win the race which car do you think he or she will pick?
I have never owned a ford in my life so I have to settle for the camaro and make it like it should be power wise from the factory myself and in doing so I lose my warranty.
For the people who can only have one vehicle and the camaro is their daily driver i can understand why visibility and truck space would be a factor but you can't tell me if the camaro had 900hp from the factory it wouldn't sell better then dodge or ford even with the slight visibility and trunk space disadvantage.
I agree the camaro is the all round best performer of the bunch but it doesn't dominate in any category
Like I have have said before make it look bad aXX again (fix the tail lights clean up both bumper lines) put the lt5 in it and make it 800+ hp and I will buy another one to put alongside the 2 I have now.

[95 imp]

Here we are with the "trunk space thing"...

1st, 2nd, and 6 gen cargo specs:

1969- 8.5 ft3

1978- 6.3 ft3

2016+- 9.1 ft3

And, the first 2 included a spare tire in the trunk.....

Second gens (with the smallest trunks) had the biggest sales numbers. So stop trying to use the "golf bag in the trunk" line. NO ONE goes around looking to put a golf bag, a frozen turkey, and two dead bodies in the back of a sports car.

[Orangeman13]

Will there be a 7th gen?

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Number 3

And lets get everyone started again on this on. You can't get a set of golf clubs in the trunk of the Camaro. You can in both competitors. Many have simply stated, "who the F needs golf clubs in the trunk of a Camaro". Well you have simply answered part of the sales problem. You can sell a car with a small trunk to someone doesn't care about trunk space, but you can't sell a car with a small trunk to someone who does care. It's pretty simple. To paraphrase Bob Lutz's old adage that "you can sell a young mans car to an old person, but you can't sell and old man's car to a young person".

What percentage of Americans golf? Answer : ~8% , 6% men , 1/4 are avid
Only 0.06% of Americans buy Pony cars.
I think I would look elsewhere for the key to low Camaro sales.

I can fit a 30” roller suitcase, a large computer bag and my gym bag in the trunk easily. I don’t give a F about two sets of clubs.

https://cdn.cybergolf.com/images/186...-in-the-US.pdf

[arpad_m]

Number 3, this was a very thought-provoking post, thank you. I have thought about these a few times, and despite my age, I am a recent Camaro enthusiast (the 6th gen is my first Camaro) with no long-standing nostalgic feelings to "cloud" my conclusions.

I am somewhat baffled by the drastic difference in sales volumes against the Mustang, to me it seems to stem mostly from nostalgia, but there must be more to it. The Challenger's popularity I understand, because it has a distinct personality, that of a cushy cow with gobs of HP in top trims, while lower trims have the same increased interior and trunk space.

Rather than ramble on forever, I just wanted to ask you about one point made in this thread, GM not making any meaningful design or powertrain changes to the 6th gen over its lifecycle. It seems to me that the top 3 issues brought up against the Camaro wouldn't be that hard to fix, namely

- raise the roof by 1" and lower the beltline by 1" -> visibility problem addressed, potentially the rear seat legroom/headroom problem as well

- split the taillights -> trunk opening problem addressed, all carry-ons and golf bags will fit through the larger opening

- advertise these changes along with best of class performance ad nauseam -> perception problem addressed, people will stop harping on the issues above and actually begin to consider the car again

Are these changes so impossibly difficult to make? Even without touching the powertrain (and let's be honest, the handling of the A8 torque converter issue was nothing but subpar), this would increase sales IMO. Or am I grossly mistaken or overlooking something obvious?

[Jeb114]

Originally Posted by hotlap

What percentage of Americans golf? Answer : ~8% , 6% men , 1/4 are avid
Only 0.06% of Americans buy Pony cars.
I think I would look elsewhere for the key to low Camaro sales.

I can’t fit a 30” roller suitcase, a large computer bag and my gym bag in the trunk easily. I don’t give a F about two sets of clubs.

https://cdn.cybergolf.com/images/186...-in-the-US.pdf

Enough that Corvette made sure a full set of golf bags fit in the new mid engine car.......

[3.8TransAM]

They turned the Camaro into the Corvette.


It's the problem, Corvette has no back seat. The Camaro back seat is right there on the useless scale like a Jaguar XK8 back seat.


All the Dodge cars have room in front and back seats. Mustang rear seats suck but way up on the usable scale compared to the Camaro.


I'm qualified to speak on this matter I've done multiple multistate moves in thirdgens :-)


People keep thinking the problem on forums is the hardcore guys like us on the forums. We don't mean shit in volume numbers to Chevrolet. This is where the general public comes in, they buy the volume to keep the platforms alive. If they can't buy the car to use as a daily or family hauler in a pinch, you're done. This is what hurts the Camaro more than any other factor.

[AZCamaroFan]

space is probably an issue and yet i never see anyone in the back of a mustang or a challenger either and usually no one in the passenger seat

[FarmerFran]

Anyone looking for a usable back seat and trunk in a "sport/muscle car" is going right for the Charger. Fast and handle pretty damn good.

[Craig]

GM built the perfect third car for married couples without children. Other than single young men nobody is buying this car for primary transportation and single young men are getting laid off by the millions. I’m the older married guy looking for the third car but I was just laid off too. There just aren’t enough buyers here heading into recession when you factor in having to pull Cadillac’s dead weight. It’s my opinion that Caddy shitting the bed on the ATS is what ultimately doomed Camaro. Has any Caddy alpha ever gotten within a county mile of sales targets? CT5 looks to be another ATS, a great drivers car that nobody buys. Camaro could never sell well enough to make up for every other vehicle on the platform being a flop.

[Craig]

Originally Posted by 95 imp

I do not watch much TV, but they were playing around the Super Bowl and I've seen them on the cable car channels.

Ya... I always stop and watch them too. And drool a little... And I'm not a Dodge fan either, but it does make me think...

As far as rebates? WHAT rebates? It's sad that a loyal Chevy guy gets the shaft and some mustang fan boy gets almost triple the rebate I do.

Go buy yourself a junker Mustang for $500-800, sit on the title for 30 days, then dump it on the dealer as a trade in and get the $2000. I agree it’s stupid of GM to keep doing this but you can still take advantage of it. For me at least it doesn’t seem like too much hassle to clear $1200-1500.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Jeb114

Enough that Corvette made sure a full set of golf bags fit in the new mid engine car.......

Sure. Carrying two sets of clubs would be cool. It’s still a minority point of view and very unlikely the cause for the steady decline.

Challenger sold 60,997 units in 2019. Camaro sold 67,940 in 2017 and “we” were already predicting the Camaro’s demise in 2016 at 72,705 units. The Challenger is now “it” ...somehow.?.?.?

The Camaro is going into its sixth model year and the postponed gen7 was originally due this fall (MY21). The competition is advertising by introducing new models and increased power at every price level. The GM “professionals” with their “data” served the Camaro community the 2019 facelift debacle that earned them a shitload of negative press.

Wonder why sales fell in 2018?

How about GM’s pigheaded A8 shudder leaving buyers to feel they will be abandoned. I sold mine at a nice lose in 2018 btw ...and I wouldn’t touch any GM car with it ...including the CTS-V, Z06 or ZR1.

How about the 2019 SS facelift that was just made worse in 2020? When was that revealed? April 2018!

How about GM’s brilliant decision to close US plants and shift production to Mexico and “China”. Winning hearts and minds.

How about the introduction of the C8 while providing no halo Camaro to “market” against the 760 HP GT500 CFTP or 797 HP Redeye Widebody?

Rant over and not really aimed at you.