[Korosion]

Originally Posted by KingLT1

I would agree...in order to fully utilize the RPM potential of the VVT-3 a ported MSD is a must. The stock IM peaks way too early in the RPM range for that cam.

Yeah I get that, but I can't imagine it being completely pointless, there has to be some sort of benefit running stock ported stuff, than just stock non ported stuff.

[KingLT1]

Originally Posted by Korosion

Yeah I get that, but I can't imagine it being completely pointless, there has to be some sort of benefit running stock ported stuff, than just stock non ported stuff.

Pray has documented all this stuff. Yea there are gains but I would wager that a stock cam/ported MSD/95mm/ported heads setup would outperform a VVT-3/Ported Stock IM/TB/ported heads setup.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by KingLT1

For example, I would wager that a 3200stall, stock cam, ported MSD/95tb, ported heads setup would outperform a 3200 stall, VVT-3 cam, Stock ported IM/TB, ported heads setup at the track or road course.

First I would agree that the MSD PT95 is a better match for the VVT-3. I don't road race but would also add this "off-the-shelf" cam is not optimized for road racing either.

Now to King's wager, I highly doubt in any street, race, drag race or anything would I choose PTB and PIntate => 95TB and MSD which adds about +6 to +12 HP from 5000 to 6600 RPM
VS
stock cam to VVT3 (even though it would be the wrong cam for this application) which yields like 45 to 80 HP with all the support listed from 4500 to 7200 RPM. There is SO much HP under the curve here and the curve is 600 RPM higher mean more time in gear, meaning more RPM into the next gear on the shift. Here is a dyno of that cam and ported stock stuff and it making 450 ft -lbs plus from 4000 to 6000 RPM, so it ain't like the cam is laying down here.


Nutshell it is HARD to overcam this engine.
So you may ask why is this not a road-race cam. Frist there all types and lengths of road racing with all types of car prep. But in general, a broad torque curve is essential. A cam with a 112 LSA is going to have a lot more mid-range torque vs 116 LSA of the VVT-3. How much, your tuner should be able to give you an estimate. Somebody with camdoctor. It is a big cam so understand the trade-off would be a really "aggressive idle". Hence one needs to work with the tuner to spec a cam that will work like you don't want a 112 LSA with 235 up duration as a DD if you ask me. So maybe 116 is a great compromise, but the compromise will be on track performance.

[Korosion]

Originally Posted by oldman

First I would agree that the MSD PT95 is a better match for the VVT-3. I don't road race but would also add this "off-the-shelf" cam is not optimized for road racing either.

Now to King's wager, I highly doubt in any street, race, drag race or anything would I choose PTB and PIntate => 95TB and MSD which adds about +6 to +12 HP from 5000 to 6600 RPM
VS
stock cam to VVT3 (even though it would be the wrong cam for this application) which yields like 45 to 80 HP with all the support listed from 4500 to 7200 RPM. There is SO much HP under the curve here and the curve is 600 RPM higher mean more time in gear, meaning more RPM into the next gear on the shift. Here is a dyno of that cam and ported stock stuff and it making 450 ft -lbs plus from 4000 to 6000 RPM, so it ain't like the cam is laying down here.


Nutshell it is HARD to overcam this engine.
So you may ask why is this not a road-race cam. Frist there all types and lengths of road racing with all types of car prep. But in general, a broad torque curve is essential. A cam with a 112 LSA is going to have a lot more mid-range torque vs 116 LSA of the VVT-3. How much, your tuner should be able to give you an estimate. Somebody with camdoctor. It is a big cam so understand the trade-off would be a really "aggressive idle". Hence one needs to work with the tuner to spec a cam that will work like you don't want a 112 LSA with 235 up duration as a DD if you ask me. So maybe 116 is a great compromise, but the compromise will be on track performance.

Thank you, for the well-detailed response. I do agree and I do know that the MSD/95 is better for the vvt3 cam, all I'm asking is would there still be some sort of gain going stock ported than just stock non ported? I dont road course heavily, I normally just go out once or twice a year to have some fun. and the trade-offs for the road course are worth it to me for the overall of what I use the car for.

[oldman]

Pray did a write up on flow rates of his ported heads, add stock IM and TB, sub ported IM and TB, there were large lower lift gains with ported IM and TB, cams, especially stock cams spend large amounts of time sub .500 life. You can do a search on this forum. Nutshell the ported stock stuff works and works well to a point. The general rule of thumb is with cam, especially a large cam, it is better to go to MSD and 95TB (ported or not).

I was merely pointing out that cam and heads have been shown to add upto 80 engine HP, even with stock IM,TB and header / manifold. TSP itself broke 600 engine HP with a stock engine + ported head and their beta VVT cam.

So it comes to a money issue, go with cam and ported heads and save the $1600 on the MSD and 95mm (which can be added later). Same goes to CAI, I'd just cut the box and maybe run a green filter save the $400 for cam and heads.

If this is NOT a money issue, King is correct that the general rule of thumb and get the MSD and 95 both ported and never look back. The stock intake is not only limited it has two different runner lengths. Hope GM comes out with a LT2 version of their manifold that would directly bolt on to the Camaro just like the LS1 to LS2 / LS6 intake upgrades.

I spent a good 2 months (retired) fooling around with large cam, ported heads and all combos of intake manifolds, stock exhaust header, LT, TB. I found nothing from my admitted SOTP dyno that would dispute the run of thumb that cam and heads like LT, Like ported MSD, Like CAIs, like big TB (I have a 103mm). That said, the car was perfectly fine with large cam, heads, ported stock IM, Ported87, stock header with CA front cat deletes. Now granted my own tuning skills are laughable... but good enough to get the A/F in range and enough advance not to see spark retard also I get 93 and E85 here so I get lots of room to make mistakes especially E85 has high max rich HP ratio as well as large tolerances for spark advance.. From all combinations, I felt the biggest loss of power was LT and cats to the stock header and stock cats...small changes were found with IM, TB, CAI stock to wild. My GTEC is broken (can download the data but still can view) or I would have a chart with the WOT runs that I did in 3rd gear.

There is also driving experience and a high revving LT1 with LT, MSD, large TB and open element CAI, is a glorious experience, especially with the M6, pure nirvana. This is some loud exhaust sound, it is the sound of a high CR V8 making high RPM power.

[Korosion]

Originally Posted by oldman

Pray did a write up on flow rates of his ported heads, add stock IM and TB, sub ported IM and TB, there were large lower lift gains with ported IM and TB, cams, especially stock cams spend large amounts of time sub .500 life. You can do a search on this forum. Nutshell the ported stock stuff works and works well to a point. The general rule of thumb is with cam, especially a large cam, it is better to go to MSD and 95TB (ported or not).

I was merely pointing out that cam and heads have been shown to add upto 80 engine HP, even with stock IM,TB and header / manifold. TSP itself broke 600 engine HP with a stock engine + ported head and their beta VVT cam.

So it comes to a money issue, go with cam and ported heads and save the $1600 on the MSD and 95mm (which can be added later). Same goes to CAI, I'd just cut the box and maybe run a green filter save the $400 for cam and heads.

If this is NOT a money issue, King is correct that the general rule of thumb and get the MSD and 95 both ported and never look back. The stock intake is not only limited it has two different runner lenghts. Hope GM comes out with a LT2 version of their manifold that would directly bolt on to the Camaro just like the LS1 to LS2 / LS6 intake upgrades.

Okay awesome, this was the answer I was looking for, thank you very much!

[KingLT1]

Originally Posted by oldman

First I would agree that the MSD PT95 is a better match for the VVT-3. I don't road race but would also add this "off-the-shelf" cam is not optimized for road racing either.

Now to King's wager, I highly doubt in any street, race, drag race or anything would I choose PTB and PIntate => 95TB and MSD which adds about +6 to +12 HP from 5000 to 6600 RPM
VS
stock cam to VVT3 (even though it would be the wrong cam for this application) which yields like 45 to 80 HP with all the support listed from 4500 to 7200 RPM. There is SO much HP under the curve here and the curve is 600 RPM higher mean more time in gear, meaning more RPM into the next gear on the shift. Here is a dyno of that cam and ported stock stuff and it making 450 ft -lbs plus from 4000 to 6000 RPM, so it ain't like the cam is laying down here.


Nutshell it is HARD to overcam this engine.
So you may ask why is this not a road-race cam. Frist there all types and lengths of road racing with all types of car prep. But in general, a broad torque curve is essential. A cam with a 112 LSA is going to have a lot more mid-range torque vs 116 LSA of the VVT-3. How much, your tuner should be able to give you an estimate. Somebody with camdoctor. It is a big cam so understand the trade-off would be a really "aggressive idle". Hence one needs to work with the tuner to spec a cam that will work like you don't want a 112 LSA with 235 up duration as a DD if you ask me. So maybe 116 is a great compromise, but the compromise will be on track performance.

I agree and will admit I was exaggerating a bit on the stock IM/TB. The setup will still work fine that way, but I was just trying to emphasize how much stronger it would pull on the top end with a ported MSD. Like you said it can always be added later.

[6spdhyperblue]

I think there still needs to be more investigation on the l86 IM. If the cradle is lowered a bit with the loose bolts it may slide in. Maybe next winter...

[oldman]

also it looks like the plastic liner on the cowl can be trimmed back quite a bit. I'm ready to try a LT2 to be honest. If I get a job, I'll have money to burn, if I don't it is 12:00 noon Yoga, I have to drag my body out of bed by 11:15 its terrible.

[Korosion]

Originally Posted by KingLT1

I agree and will admit I was exaggerating a bit on the stock IM/TB. The setup will still work fine that way, but I was just trying to emphasize how much stronger it would pull on the top end with a ported MSD. Like you said it can always be added later.

Yes I do plan adding it later, my initial question was comparing stock ported IM/TB vs stock IM/TB, whether there would be a gain.

[oldman]

from memory the ported stock IM and TB run out of flow at .400 lift, 30 cfm from memory at .500 lift, this was on a ported head. Pray has a post on it. Basically you can take the cfm of the port and double it and that would give you the NA HP the engine will / can make.
https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=483048
Note that Pray's ported TB flow more air than the hole...

[KingLT1]

Originally Posted by Korosion

Yes I do plan adding it later, my initial question was comparing stock ported IM/TB vs stock IM/TB, whether there would be a gain.

Of course there is. It gains 17whp on a stock engine.

Here is a road course combo Brett put together for a guy. This is on a little stage 1 cam too. a VVT-3 with that wide 116 LSA is likely going to want to carry power even further.

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=531989

[Korosion]

Today I got the dyno results of my cam/heads/converter install! Pretty good numbers for just having a stock IM!! 530/480! Sorry, I dont know how to rotate picture.

The final mod specifications of everything was:
VVT3 Cam - TSP
Ported Heads - TSP
3200-3400 Stall Converter - Circle D
95mm ported Throttle Body - Solar Performance

I already had:
Long tube header
Intake
E85

[oldman]

Looks good, but I'm confused why the dyno run does not go to at least 6800 RPM, this is a 7200 RPM cam (not talking about peak). 6500 is way too soon lift. There is no "MSD dip", I do think the power curve should be rising instead of flat from 6000 to 6500 so that means the IM or the air box is probably holding you back. Also note the CF is negative the car is making even more power to the wheels...