[hotlap]

Originally Posted by shaffe

I used the 1LE simply because that's kind of the trim that always gets used to compare to other vehicles. (and when people want to compare it to say the GT350) Then there's been PP1 to 1LE and then a kind of mash up of PP2 to 1LE. In this type of bench racing discussion it's kind of always been the 1LE. And again not knocking the ATS-V or regular SS. The SS being on the level of the V is great, and is a great jump from 5th to 6th(and much better of a jump than Mustang had) but it's the 1LE that puts it on another level. If you go back through all the nonsense talked in this thread and others it kind of has always been SS1LE, PP1 and PP2 350/R ZL1/E 500/CFTP C8Z51. the "base" SS and GT have rarely been mentioned other than the SS is fully equipped as is for track duty.

Then if you go CTS-V (yes I know its a stretched alpha so not full apples to apple) and compare it to the ZL1 the ZL1 was about 6 seconds faster at LL

My point is the Camaro when compared to it's alpha siblings is a much better performer. Which is why I stand by my statement of I didn't expect it to perform as well at it does.

Maybe I was alone lol. But even looking at just ATSV to SS it I sure as hell didn't think it had the potential it does in 1LE trim- maybe that's better wording

The base SS hasn’t gotten the press but it’s also a very capable car.

Motor Trend skipped the H2H between the SS and GT and instead ran the SS against the M4.

The 2018 PP1 was then mismatched against the SS 1LE in a H2H when the SS was enough to beat it.

The SS ran 0.82 faster than the 2018 PP1 (heartbreaker) when comparing the two tests. The SS can also burn a full tank of gas at 10/10 without overheating and it’s tires have more than one hero lap in them. (looking at you PP2)

Results from the two H2H follow.

Streets of Willow

01:20.67 - 2018 Chevrolet Camaro SS 1LE
01:22.94 - 2015 BMW M4
01:23.15 - 2016 Chevrolet Camaro SS (2SS)
01:23.97 - 2018 Ford Mustang GT Performance Pack 1

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/chev...let-camaro-ss/

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/chev...ck-comparison/

...and the SS 1LE is on another level.

[BlaqWhole]

Greetings from the Dominican Republic. I'll be out here for a few nights. I am soo far behind on whatever the hell you guys are talking about. Lol.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by hotlap

The base SS hasn’t gotten the press but it’s also a very capable car.

Motor Trend skipped the H2H between the SS and GT and instead ran the SS against the M4.

The 2018 PP1 was then mismatched against the SS 1LE in a H2H when the SS was enough to beat it.

The SS ran 0.82 faster than the 2018 PP1 (heartbreaker) when comparing the two tests. The SS can also burn a full tank of gas at 10/10 without overheating and it’s tires have more than one hero lap in them. (looking at you PP2)

Results from the two H2H follow.

Streets of Willow

01:20.67 - 2018 Chevrolet Camaro SS 1LE
01:22.94 - 2015 BMW M4
01:23.15 - 2016 Chevrolet Camaro SS (2SS)
01:23.97 - 2018 Ford Mustang GT Performance Pack 1

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/chev...let-camaro-ss/

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/chev...ck-comparison/

...and the SS 1LE is on another level.

I'm sure that if I said this then the three brothers troll would be in here talking trash. Lol. But you are exsctly right. As far as I'm concerned the PP1 is just a GT with an emblem and ain't got shit else.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by IneedAZ

I could be wrong in my thinking, but GM could dip into the sales of GT500's and Redeyes, or even regular Hellcats by getting off their duffs and release what everybody wants which is the LT5 ZL1 and not 2 years from now. The Hp/weight ratio is better than both top dogs and if GM would ease up on TQ management beat both cars in all areas.

They need to drop the boring commercials and give us what we are asking for. Dodge is stealing the sales by giving people the mind set we have lots of power. Redeye, Hellcat, 1320, etc.. I have been a Chevy guy since 1983, prior was Mopar. I now own both. I would ditch my Charger for a second ZL1 if it had the LT5.

I think we can agree, when you put Redeye, GT500, and ZL1 on drag radials, ZL1 is not first. Hard to overcome 100+hp if they are able to plant it.

Not many people would buy it tho. Sure everyone wants it. And everyone wants to see it. But will it sell at the high price it surely will cost amidst the C8 arrivals? I doubt it. I wouldn't buy one. Because C8 Z06. All you'd have is a bunch of dreamers and trolls in trucks and whatever the hell they claim they have as they sit in their parent's basement trolling the internet dreaming and trash talking about cars they'll never own. So it's not a viable option. At best maybe as a limited edition end Gen option. Make limited amounts, secure the sales, number them, call it a day.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I'm sure that if I said this then the three brothers troll would be in here talking trash. Lol. But you are exsctly right. As far as I'm concerned the PP1 is just a GT with an emblem and ain't got shit else.

I posted data and made an observation. The SS is a very capable budget track car that doesn’t get the press. It much, much more capable than a GT, PP1 or PP2

As for your new fan club. I’ve never gone 180 mph ...but I have gone 130 mph (210 kpm) in autobahn traffic

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by hotlap

I posted data and made an observation. The SS is a very capable budget track car that doesn’t get the press. It much, much more capable than a GT, PP1 or PP2

As for your new fan club. I’ve never gone 180 mph ...but I have gone 130 mph (210 kpm) in autobahn traffic

Also you can get the SS with options that the GT doesn't offer. This is the standard entry level V8 Camaro were talking about. And it is better and offers more and is more capable than the PP2 and GT Premium combined. And GM has no bones about you taking it out racing. And heck, even the GT500 will show effects from heat than the SS. At least you can keep going lap after lap in the SS. The GT500 will lose a full second. And weren't GT350s going into limp mode and catching fire?

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Also you can get the SS with options that the GT doesn't offer. This is the standard entry level V8 Camaro were talking about. And it is better and offers more and is more capable than the PP2 and GT Premium combined. And GM has no bones about you taking it out racing. And heck, even the GT500 will show effects from heat than the SS. At least you can keep going lap after lap in the SS. The GT500 will lose a full second. And weren't GT350s going into limp mode and catching fire?

But you can’t see out of it. Hey, c’mon....somebody had to say it.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Also you can get the SS with options that the GT doesn't offer. This is the standard entry level V8 Camaro were talking about. And it is better and offers more and is more capable than the PP2 and GT Premium combined. And GM has no bones about you taking it out racing.. And heck, even the GT500 will show effects from heat than the SS. At least you can keep going lap after lap in the SS. The GT500 will lose a full second. And weren't GT350s going into limp mode and catching fire?

Right on. I see the SS package misunderstood even by Camaro fans. Each model progressively builds upon the base SS.

The SS has Brembo brakes on four corners, brake cooling ducts, the three radiator heavy duty cooling, oil/trans/diff coolers, summer only performance tires, auto rev matching and a warranty to play ...standard.

I assume you are referring to the “Behind the Scenes” video of ICONS GT500 / 911 GT3 RS.

There is a good discussion about how the cars ran starting at 27:30. The GT500 has one good lap on new tires and then dropped 0.8 sec on the second and 1.0 sec on the third. They run three consecutive laps. The 911 was consistent, 0.1, on it’s three. They also say the track favored power.

[wnta1ss]

Originally Posted by hotlap

I posted data and made an observation. The SS is a very capable budget track car that doesn’t get the press. It much, much more capable than a GT, PP1 or PP2

Good point, and it speaks to Ford's way of thinking. At 3 road courses around here, I have seen (5) distinct 1SS/2SS 6g Camaros, and (2) SS/1LEs, that were used on the track. Comparing that to Mustang S550s, there were just (2), with both being GT350 models. The fact that Ford requires you to pay 6x,xxx for their base track-capable muscle/pony car (GT350 with Track Pack) compared to the Camaro SS which can be had for easily 20k less (even the 1LE would be easily 15k less) is pretty significant. Tying this in with the thread, Ford's excuse for artificially limiting the GT500's top speed being 'road course' was obviously false and they knew it. They know very well that their car is not really targeted at hardcore 'trackday' guys who will only ever run on a road course.

[ZRacerLE]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Right on. I see the SS package misunderstood even by Camaro fans. Each model progressively builds upon the base SS.

The SS has Brembo brakes on four corners, brake cooling ducts, the three radiator heavy duty cooling, oil/trans/diff coolers, summer only performance tires, auto rev matching and a warranty to play ...standard.

I assume you are referring to the “Behind the Scenes” video of ICONS GT500 / 911 GT3 RS.

There is a good discussion about how the cars ran starting at 27:30. The GT500 has one good lap on new tires and then dropped 0.8 sec on the second and 1.0 sec on the third. They run three consecutive laps. The 911 was consistent, 0.1, on it’s three. They also say the track favored power.

Wow! Had no idea it dropped off that bad.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Right on. I see the SS package misunderstood even by Camaro fans. Each model progressively builds upon the base SS.

Or rather, GM started from the ZL1 and worked down. They built the SS with the capability to handle the power and cornering of the ZL1 and then gave it the LT1 engine. As you go down the line not one Camaro is overwhelmed or manhandled by the engine. The Mustangs tho, you'd think Frdo went the opposite way. They started with the GT and then tried adding bits and pieces here and there as a bandaid. Which is why the GT500 has the issues it has. Even down to the chassis the Camaros are built to handle ZL1 power levels and higher. The GTs can barely get Coyote level power down effectively.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Or rather, GM started from the ZL1 and worked down. They built the SS with the capability to handle the power and cornering of the ZL1 and then gave it the LT1 engine. As you go down the line not one Camaro is overwhelmed or manhandled by the engine. The Mustangs tho, you'd think Frdo went the opposite way. They started with the GT and then tried adding bits and pieces here and there as a bandaid. Which is why the GT500 has the issues it has. Even down to the chassis the Camaros are built to handle ZL1 power levels and higher. The GTs can barely get Coyote level power down effectively.

Absolutely.

I’m the lead engineer for the Americas in my company and have been part of global platform design. I have no doubt that Chevy Performance knew the entire Camaro lineup during the planning phase and ensured that much could be shared, top down. Parts designed for the power and weight of the ZL1 are the base for the SS.

Even the I4 and V6 1LEs use the SS platform spec (tires, brakes, cooling, etc) as their foundation.

The S550 does appear to have aimed too low and then the adjusted. Delayed the GT500 and redesigned the GT, etc. a bit of a patchwork

[LESS1]

As more proof of the Alpha advantages consider this blast from the past. V6 1LE with a ~100HP and 116lb-ft power deficit spanks Frod Mustang GT PP1 on 19-inch Pirelli P Zero tires at C&D LL by over 1 second on smaller 20 inch 245 front and 275 rear Good Year Eagle F1 tires. Clear tire advantage for PP1. GT is obviously faster in every measured speed metric yet is still slower around a proper racetrack that favors power because the chassis cannot take advantage of this power in an efficient manner. And sure, I get the same day argument. But in this case with such a large power advantage, unless Snack Pack 1 was tested on 100deg day with rain and V6 1LE test was in the dead of winter the Mustang should have crushed the Camaro.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...l-test-review/
https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...-2015-feature/

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Or rather, GM started from the ZL1 and worked down. They built the SS with the capability to handle the power and cornering of the ZL1 and then gave it the LT1 engine. As you go down the line not one Camaro is overwhelmed or manhandled by the engine. The Mustangs tho, you'd think Frdo went the opposite way. They started with the GT and then tried adding bits and pieces here and there as a bandaid. Which is why the GT500 has the issues it has. Even down to the chassis the Camaros are built to handle ZL1 power levels and higher. The GTs can barely get Coyote level power down effectively.

Originally Posted by hotlap

Absolutely.

I’m the lead engineer for the Americas in my company and have been part of global platform design. I have no doubt that Chevy Performance knew the entire Camaro lineup during the planning phase and ensured that much could be shared, top down. Parts designed for the power and weight of the ZL1 are the base for the SS.

Even the I4 and V6 1LEs use the SS platform spec (tires, brakes, cooling, etc) as their foundation.

The S550 does appear to have aimed too low and then the adjusted. Delayed the GT500 and redesigned the GT, etc. a bit of a patchwork

That is exactly how it’s done. TBH, I think Ford would manage it the same way but as soon as they decided to stay the course with D2C, they pretty much understood where their high water mark was and realized that for GT350 and GT500, they’d have to do some additional metal-bending to produce a capable vehicle. GM’s advantage with starting with Alpha is huge.

Look at it another way...Tadge was very clear in his discussions with leadership in development of C7 and early planning of C8 that there were things that simply could not be done with the Y-Car platform. They had stretched it as far as they could. “You want more car? Pony up for a new architecture. And while you’re at it, let me tell you where the engine should go.”