[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

I assumed the same thing when I bought my Model 3 Performance. 500lb ft of instant torque, why am I not roasting the tires off this thing? After owning one for a while what I learned was that these new EV drivetrains have very different traction control systems than the mechanical systems we are used to in the Camaro.

In an ICE based traction control system once the system detects wheel spin it has to signal to the ECU to reduce power, so it pulls timing/cut fuel, etc. by sending the appropriate changes to the engine. Once the wheel spin stops it signals back to the ECU to add timing/fuel, rinse repeat. This is a very slow process when compared to how an EV drivetrain traction control system works. With the EV the sensors and system directly connected to the electric drive unit. The feedback is so much quicker and as a result you can get a lot more grip out of the tires. It is crazy how much more grip Tesla can get out of these crappy eco tires.

I think one of the things that is still hard to wrap my head around is how easy it is to go fast in the Tesla. I mean, it is too easy, everyone is a hero driver. You plant your foot and you roast just about everything on the road from a dig. Under 3 sec without a peep of tire spin, no drama.

I understand what you're saying quite clearly about the potential differences in traction control. What I don't yet understand is why folks are so willing to give up trying to get better without all of this electronic assistance.

The average chimpanzee could be trained to drive an EV from zero to 60 in the two's, so where's the satisfaction - knowing that you wouldn't be able to do any better?


Norm

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

We will see. Ford has already made the leap with the Mustang. Change is hard but necessary.

The idea of Ford looking toward a performance-oriented EV rather than just building yet another compliance EV is one thing.

Would you really like to see the Camaro ultimately become known as a CUV, where any poncar version spun off of that containing way too much SUV/CUV DNA? That's one of the possible scenarios that the Mustang as a ponycar could be looking at.


Norm

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Lynix

In other news, old men shake fist at cloud. Its the future folks get over it. EV would probably be the best thing for the Camaro, it will always be limited by the Corvette, as an EV it would be able to branch out on its own.

Even when I was a young man, I wouldn't let what other people preferred necessarily influence what I was going to like. Other people are perfectly free to like what they want to like, and explain why. They don't get to dictate to me what I'm supposed to like.

Have people become so willing to roll over and just "go with the flow" that they've lost that kind of independence?


Norm

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

I understand what you're saying quite clearly about the potential differences in traction control. What I don't yet understand is why folks are so willing to give up trying to get better without all of this electronic assistance.

The average chimpanzee could be trained to drive an EV from zero to 60 in the two's, so where's the satisfaction - knowing that you wouldn't be able to do any better?


Norm

I agree with you. It is such an improvement that is spoils a lot of the fun. When compared to how most of grew up, the new tech makes it all too easy. There is no point in drag racing since you will consistently get the same time every time.

This is the challenge I see for us performance car enthusiasts. I am curious how Chevy can inject some soul into a future performance EV if we are eventually forced into it.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

Not a Camaro but this is a good video to highlight the jump you get in the mid range with an EV and no transmission and how long it takes to catch up once you get the lead. For those that haven’t driven an EV the instant power is the part that is hard to describe. You can see how hard it pulls away at both at 30 and 50 mph which is where we tend to use power in our everyday driving.

Couple of questions . . .

Re: those roll-races from 30 and 50 . . . how often do you use full throttle in the optimum gear for acceleration now? For how many seconds at a time?

Since this video the Tesla has received another free 5% power boost and does the 1/4 mile in 11.5 sec now.

That's now, while there's some pressure on the EV mfrs to demonstrate hardcore levels of performance.

What's to stop Tesla or anybody else from dialing 5% power out of their cars - unannounced - with just another over-the-air update at a later date. There'd be no need for emissions recertification, so there's essentially no financial disincentive pressure on an EV mfr to not dial the performance back like there would be with an ICE powered car.

Don't think it can't happen; sooner or later, some environmental group will go after these crazy-quick acceleration stats as being energy-wasteful.


Norm

[6sigma]

I'm good with an electric Camaro or sports car. It needs to be what I consider good, and fun, and engaging. I don't know exactly how that will be done, but if they get there then I'm good with it.

I love my ICE cars as much as anyone. But I admit, they do look extraordinarily complex compared to EVs. Valvetrains, reciprocating mass, oiling/lubrication systems, liquid cooling systems, ignition management, fuel supply systems, hydraulic power transmissions, exhaust and thermal management, plus complex ECU to manage the whole thing. We have truly mastered the ICE. It's amazing the complexity of the thing and you can take a turbo 4-cyl econobox and give it to somebody who neglects nearly all maintenance and it will run for 100k miles.

I think the Hummer EV truck could change how enthusiasts see EVs. If it looks good (normal) and has reasonable/comparable range and utility, plus the power, it could be a game changer. If it has range equivalent to a 6.2 gas V8 and can charge in a reasonable amount of time, I think you'll have a lot of converts.

[genxer]

I wonder what the interest level has been in the GM ev crate motors? That would be a gauge of appeal to full-on enthusiasts.

Another way I'm looking at it is drawing parallels between Traxxas within the radio control car hobby. I keep seeing the word easy here. Easy thrills. That's how they changed R/C along with online ordering.

The enthusiast side of R/C was traditionally racing. Within a racing discipline, people become discriminating enough to see Traxxas wasn't serving that side of the hobby. On the shop side, they weren't much serving the people that liked to build either. Traxxas was a hard pull of R/C from hobby to toy. Maybe some of that's changed; I've been out for several years.

Posts about people paying for Tesla to bump their current limit are laughable. And using software throttle controls, to max-out traction, is so against the spirit of what we R/C racers were doing.

edit: You'd have to know R/C well, historically, for this to make sense. Sorry for rambling.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Couple of questions . . .

Re: those roll-races from 30 and 50 . . . how often do you use full throttle in the optimum gear for acceleration now? For how many seconds at a time?

Norm

In an automatic it would just downshift based on current speed. In a manual, well you know the drill. I think that is one of the biggest advantages of the EV. It always feels like it is in the best gear so to speak. Having no transmission or torque converter just gives you a very direct feel with instant throttle response. You are not waiting on anything. You just dart ahead instantly. No waiting for the air to rush through the intake, add fuel, spark, compression, build rpm and then transfer that energy to the transmission, etc. With the EV it is just electrons from the battery to an inverter, drive unit and bam, your gone. That is why you see it pull ahead so strongly in those runs. Then the gearing for the ICE based car has the advantage but it takes so long to chase it down you are in triple digits by then.

The other thing is the regen. You do so much less braking with the friction brakes, the electric motor provides most of the required braking. It feels very similar to engine braking in a manual trans without ever needing to shift. It will regen brake all the way to a complete stop and then apply brake hold. True one pedal driving if desired.

Here is another good video comparing a Hellcat Charger to a Model 3 Performance so you can see how they put power down differently.





The ZL1 with a good launch should be a tight race like this. Both cars should do about 11.5 or so by the end of the 1/4 mile.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

In an automatic it would just downshift based on current speed. In a manual, well you know the drill. I think that is one of the biggest advantages of the EV. It always feels like it is in the best gear so to speak.

My question was about how often you actually use maximum acceleration. Not what that acceleration could theoretically be (trust me, I have a pretty good handling on that part), or even how often you could use it all.

Maybe because this topic had been on my mind yesterday, I actually timed a roughly 10 to 60 run on a stretch of road that I drive to about the same performance every time no matter what car I'm in at the time. 10 to 60 was somewhere between 8 and 9 seconds, and only that much flat ran away from traffic in the other lane. What I'm getting from that is that 0 to 60 in the two's or even just the three's is so far removed from any sane street driving as to be moot; bragging rights only. Well, almost moot . . . it might be enough more car that I'd occasionally put my 10 to 60 times down in the sevens.


Norm

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by raptor

Having no transmission or torque converter just gives you a very direct feel with instant throttle response. You are not waiting on anything. You just dart ahead instantly. No waiting for the air to rush through the intake, add fuel, spark, compression, build rpm and then transfer that energy to the transmission, etc. With the EV it is just electrons from the battery to an inverter, drive unit and bam, your gone. That is why you see it pull ahead so strongly in those runs. Then the gearing for the ICE based car has the advantage but it takes so long to chase it down you are in triple digits by then.

To me, any need for "instant response" or to be able to "dart ahead instantly" means that you're reacting rather than anticipating. This could even include responding to an impromptu roll-race if the other driver caught you napping. I'm going to point to automatic transmissions for creating this apparent need for instant response, because they are inherently reactive devices under most downshift situations. These days, most (virtually all?) drivers have come to expect "finding an appropriate gear" to be normal behavior for a car to do for you. A powerful EV just takes that one step further.

The other thing is the regen. You do so much less braking with the friction brakes, the electric motor provides most of the required braking. It feels very similar to engine braking in a manual trans without ever needing to shift. It will regen brake all the way to a complete stop and then apply brake hold. True one pedal driving if desired.

Hard no on that. One job per pedal, please. I will say that my MT cars do a good enough job with compression braking that in traffic I'm not using the brake pedal very much as it is. Yeah, it's on me to put the transmission in an appropriate gear (which generally turns out to be the gear I want it to be in for decent throttle response anyway).


Norm

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

Here is another good video comparing a Hellcat Charger to a Model 3 Performance so you can see how they put power down differently.





The ZL1 with a good launch should be a tight race like this. Both cars should do about 11.5 or so by the end of the 1/4 mile.

Thanks for the links . . . not that there were any big surprises.

If I was more of a drag racer and less of a corner-carver I'd almost certainly feel differently about the constant focus on acceleration stats and the advantage that EVs have demonstrated (while recognizing that the EV advantage is at least partly due to being able to drive all four wheels without the usual ICE AWD drivetrain complexity). But I was always more of a sports car guy than a big muscle car fan . . . and road courses rather than dragstrips, even during the first round of muscle car wars back in the 1960's.


When you're driving on the street and driving at least within a semblance of sanity, do you see the roads you're driving on more as potential drag strips separated by corners, or do you see potential road courses with unusually long straights?


Norm

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Thanks for the links . . . not that there were any big surprises.

If I was more of a drag racer and less of a corner-carver I'd almost certainly feel differently about the constant focus on acceleration stats and the advantage that EVs have demonstrated (while recognizing that the EV advantage is at least partly due to being able to drive all four wheels without the usual ICE AWD drivetrain complexity). But I was always more of a sports car guy than a big muscle car fan . . . and road courses rather than dragstrips, even during the first round of muscle car wars back in the 1960's.


When you're driving on the street and driving at least within a semblance of sanity, do you see the roads you're driving on more as potential drag strips separated by corners, or do you see potential road courses with unusually long straights?


Norm

You seem to think an EV can’t be made to handle. It’s just not been a focus until the Taycan. And you’ve seen, I hope, that Tesla is running the ‘ring with the 3 motor plaid powertrain. EVs can be made to be your corner carvers with not much more than someone trying to do it.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by Number 3

You seem to think an EV can’t be made to handle. It’s just not been a focus until the Taycan. And you’ve seen, I hope, that Tesla is running the ‘ring with the 3 motor plaid powertrain. EVs can be made to be your corner carvers with not much more than someone trying to do it.

Yeah, the Model 3 actually handles surprisedly well since the battery is mounted so low in the chassis. The handling is similar to the BMW/Audi sedans. It is not as sharp as true sports cars like the Corvette or Camaro SS but you feel you are in a sporty handling car. For reference, with the Michelin PS4S tires it will pull .95g lateral skid pad. This is where I could see GM building a sports car EV and include all of their expertise they have on chassis design, magnetic ride suspension, etc.

Furthermore, Tesla doesn’t offer any kind of drive modes or control over the nannies. It would also be nice to control the torque split in AWD models. These are the kinds of things I would expect in an EV based Camaro.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

Yeah, the Model 3 actually handles surprisedly well since the battery is mounted so low in the chassis. The handling is similar to the BMW/Audi sedans. It is not as sharp as true sports cars like the Corvette or Camaro SS but you feel you are in a sporty handling car. For reference, with the Michelin PS4S tires it will pull .95g lateral skid pad. This is where I could see GM building a sports car EV and include all of their expertise they have on chassis design, magnetic ride suspension, etc.

Furthermore, Tesla doesn’t offer any kind of drive modes or control over the nannies. It would also be nice to control the torque split in AWD models. These are the kinds of things I would expect in an EV based Camaro.

A lot of people continue to think this is just a drag racing story. It's not, although everyone poo poos the results.

Battery technology, unlike the ICE, continues to develop. We will get more range, faster charging and simply through continued development, smaller lighter batteries.

And Tesla has only just started chassis development on the Model S at the 'ring. And they have true supercar coming (supposedly LOL) soon. And I very much doubt it is simply a drag car. But we have to wait and see on that.

And I agree. I can't wait to see what GM chassis engineers can do. They are of the very best in the world and no one on this site that thinks there Camaro is the best handling car should doubt that the same group of people can't do the same with an EV.

In a very short while, this will literally come down to I need piston powered power even at the expense of not having the best performing car.

And again, don't get me wrong, I'm not lined up for an EV any time soon. For me it's simply the emotional hurdle of getting fuel when and where I want. But I know a lot of people who have already crossed that hurdle.