[TreedYou]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

They put the Mustang badge on it to try to sell more. Not because the car is worthy of the Mustang badge.

Big difference.

yes they are just trying to take advantage of the mustang name, not sure how it's going to pan out but I do hope GM doesn't start doing the same silly thing with the camaro.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

They put the Mustang badge on it to try to sell more. Not because the car is worthy of the Mustang badge.

Big difference.

Change is hard, I get it but I would reserve judgement until you drive some of these vehicles. Even though you lose the sound and vibration these new cars will entertain in new ways. The brutal acceleration alone will keep a smile on your face. 0-60mph in 3 sec flat, consistently and 1/4 mile in 11.5 for $55k. And it weighs 4055lbs. The 30-50-70mph times are off the charts and quicker than a C7 ZR1. If you value performance it is hard to ignore.

Tesla has great software, battery range and EV drivetrains but I think a lot of other aspects of the car are just ok. I keep imagining a GM chassis and mag ride suspension in my Model 3 and how much of an improvement it would be.

I like working on my cars but the fact that there is like zero maintenance is another game changer and money saver. There is literally nothing to do except rotate and replace the tires. No 10qt synthetic oil changes, no transmission flushes, coolant flushes, with regen braking the brake pads will last 80-100k miles in typical street driving. Warranty on the main battery and motors is 8 years or 120k miles.

[LT4Greg]

No it wouldn’t change my mind about an EV Camaro because you can’t use that much hp on the street daily driving or in traffic! 1000 hp I would consider overkill in a street driven vehicle! Of course others will say it’s not enough and I would say to that, ‘to each his own’!

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

Change is hard, I get it but I would reserve judgement until you drive some of these vehicles. Even though you lose the sound and vibration these new cars will entertain in new ways. The brutal acceleration alone will keep a smile on your face. 0-60mph in 3 sec flat, consistently and 1/4 mile in 11.5 for $55k. And it weighs 4055lbs. The 30-50-70mph times are off the charts and quicker than a C7 ZR1. If you value performance it is hard to ignore.

Tesla has great software, battery range and EV drivetrains but I think a lot of other aspects of the car are just ok. I keep imagining a GM chassis and mag ride suspension in my Model 3 and how much of an improvement it would be.

I like working on my cars but the fact that there is like zero maintenance is another game changer and money saver. There is literally nothing to do except rotate and replace the tires. No 10qt synthetic oil changes, no transmission flushes, coolant flushes, with regen braking the brake pads will last 80-100k miles in typical street driving. Warranty on the main battery and motors is 8 years or 120k miles.

I’ll never own anything without a true three pedal manual transmission, let alone think about test driving anything electric.

Saving money isn’t even on my radar. I do save money doing my own maintenance, but myy hobbies include doing my own maintenance and low/mid level repairs myself. So when a good Saturday morning is changing your oil over breakfast I don’t think I’m the guy to try to convince electric cars without their maintenance is so great.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Seems that way. My question is what’s the best car. Period. Not even a emissions question. Simply if you can get a Camaro that is less than 3 seconds to 60, wouldn’t you consider it? Nope! It doesn’t rumble.

Change my mind about an EV-anything? Not a chance.

1000 HP and zero to 60 in the two's are useful statistics for one-dimensional bragging rights. Like I've said before, those, ummm, ludicrous stats are the Kool-aid aimed directly at car enthusiasts to entice them to get on board with the whole notion of EV driving.


Norm

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Number 3

I’m still inclined to ICEs, but at some point we start to look ridiculous in our hanging on to our history.

To worry about what you look like to other people is an utter waste of time and neural activity both.

It seems we live in an era where to an increasing extent the thoughts, opinions, and wisdom of those who've been around a while are being dismissed out of hand by those who refuse to give credit to any thinking that isn't 'new'.

Their definition of anything that isn't new enough to be right-now current must (by their definition) be all the way to ancient (it certainly shows up in the various transmission type threads where comparisons to hand-crank starting are commonly thrown out there).

And by extension, those of us who've been around a while longer and have had time to consider our choices with some care and perhaps a little wisdom and self-reflection . . . aren't even supposed to appreciate what has made up part of our life experience any more. To fall prey to any feeling of looking ridiculous is to essentially turn your back on yourself.


Norm

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Number 3

It’s just interesting to me that as much as we talk about having the performing of the Pony cars when it comes to discussing even better performance it is suddenly about emotion, not performance.

It's really not 'suddenly' except perhaps for the perception part. I think people are starting to consciously realize that there is more to having the performance available than just having the car.

In order to actually enjoy that performance rather than just brag about it being available, you have to drive the damn thing.

And even just the performance part of driving is still one part car, one part driver, and one part whatever you're driving it on (street/strip/track/dirt/etc.). No single thing, and that pesky second one is inherently aware of the subjective content.


Norm

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Number 3

If a 1000 hp Camaro existed and it handled like GM ride and handling engineers are world famous for would that change your minted?

Still no, and that's before inserting any doubt that even GM's R&H crew could actually make a 5000 lb vehicle feel like it was 1500 lbs lighter. There's 'nimble', there's 'deliberate', and then there's 'heavy'. At 0.9 lat-g, they won't feel the same.

And so far the answer is suddenly I don’t care about having the best performing car I want the best rumbling car.

That's one of the subjectives. More important to some than others, but to be entirely truthful I'd take just about any ICE exhaust sound over the whine of an electric. Certainly either a crossplane or flat-plane V8, or a sixxer, or a high-revving inline-4.


Norm

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

We will see. Ford has already made the leap with the Mustang. Change is hard but necessary.

Originally Posted by Lynix

In other news, old men shake fist at cloud. Its the future folks get over it. EV would probably be the best thing for the Camaro, it will always be limited by the Corvette, as an EV it would be able to branch out on its own.

Originally Posted by raptor5244

Change is hard, I get it but I would reserve judgement until you drive some of these vehicles. Even though you lose the sound and vibration these new cars will entertain in new ways. The brutal acceleration alone will keep a smile on your face. 0-60mph in 3 sec flat, consistently and 1/4 mile in 11.5 for $55k. And it weighs 4055lbs. The 30-50-70mph times are off the charts and quicker than a C7 ZR1. If you value performance it is hard to ignore.

You guys seem to be of the "change for the sake of change is a good thing" persuasion. While that in itself is debatable already, the real problem and the bulk of the reason many resist here is not the electric drivetrain but the accompanying additional, and massive, encroachment on personal freedoms by corporations, big brother style. Why should we just lie down and accept it as 'fate'?

Originally Posted by raptor5244

True. But the traction control is able to “pulse” the power to the wheels so fast that they can get more traction out of the tires instead of roasting them. Kind of like the way ABS brakes will pulse the brake pedal rather than locking up the tires. At least that is the best way I can explain it.

Also consider many EVs are AWD and heavy and the the RWD models have the rear motor sitting on the rear axle more like a mid engine car. Look how much improvement the C8 gets in 0-60 due to moving the weight to the rear of the vehicle.

These are very good points, the cycle speed of the feedback loop is an important advantage, so is AWD and the more favorable weight distribution. Not too much to do with electric drivetrains, though.

Originally Posted by raptor5244

Another wild thing is over the air performance upgrades. Owners of the dual motor Tesla Model 3 can purchase an Acceleration Boost for $2k. Click a button in the mobile app in and a couple minutes you just added approximately 50hp HP and torque and dropped your 0-60 and 1/4 mile time .5 sec. As someone who modified my Z06 with a cam, long tube headers, injectors, pulleys, etc. it is pretty hard to get your head wrapped around. Track Mode in the Model 3 was co-developed by Randy Pobst. If they go out and update the tune to improve corner entry or increase regen or relax the stability control it just gets pushed out in an OTA software update., which is pretty cool. I remember when I had to get in line and pay $350 to GM to get an update to mag ride suspension.

Again, this is simply reluctance on GM's and other automakers' part to actually serve their customers. Why wouldn't the same be possible by means of tune updates for our vehicles? Clearly the electric drivetrain is overprovisioned in those cars so that the manufacturer can send "updates" that basically flip a bit or change a number and they charge $2k for it. Smart business model, but nothing new conceptually or in terms of technology.

The useful lesson here for the incumbents would be to open up their software update process, and newcomers are definitely showing the way in this area. Yet again, nothing to do with the electric drivetrain.

I for one am not a huge fan of the single pedal, theme park bumper car driving experience, but that (and only that) is fully subjective, I do understand the fascination with instant torque.

Originally Posted by raptor5244

I like working on my cars but the fact that there is like zero maintenance is another game changer and money saver. There is literally nothing to do except rotate and replace the tires. No 10qt synthetic oil changes, no transmission flushes, coolant flushes, with regen braking the brake pads will last 80-100k miles in typical street driving. Warranty on the main battery and motors is 8 years or 120k miles.

Zero maintenance is nice, until you realize you have to get in line for service and wait several weeks or months. Parts are hideously expensive and hardly available. Tires will still have the same maintenance schedule. Also, the buy-in cost for these vehicles is so much higher at the moment that a few oil changes at $80-120 a pop once a year won't really tip the scales. This will definitely need to change if these companies want to see their market share of electric vehicles increase.


All in all, I think there would be much less resistance to this sort of change if it weren't for the political undercurrent and its forced nature. Who wouldn't like a pair of auxiliary electric motors on the front axle to help with the launch, for example—it's the bait-and-switch in terms of cars being converted to remote controlled appliances that I, and probably many others, are objecting to.

[Hops]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

I like working on my cars but the fact that there is like zero maintenance is another game changer and money saver. There is literally nothing to do except rotate and replace the tires. No 10qt synthetic oil changes, no transmission flushes, coolant flushes, with regen braking the brake pads will last 80-100k miles in typical street driving. Warranty on the main battery and motors is 8 years or 120k miles.

Yeah the zero maintenance does seem like a great thing. But i wonder how much it will be true with an electric car made for the track like the Taycan. The cooling system looks really complicated:

https://jalopnik.com/an-extremely-de...gin-1837802533

[Petrol Head]

Can anyone seriously imagine NASCAR without gasoline? F1 sure, they’re running hybrids already.

But a part of the strategy and game planning of NASCAR is fuel stops.Taking that aspect away from the sport is like what baseball did making the intentional walk a signal instead of forcing the pitcher to throw 4 outside of the zone - presenting the chance of a wild pitch, passed ball, OR the great fakeout intentional pitch that drops in for a strike.

[GroundhogSS]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

They put the Mustang badge on it to try to sell more. Not because the car is worthy of the Mustang badge.

Big difference.

Lipstick on a pig.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

You guys seem to be of the "change for the sake of change is a good thing" persuasion. While that in itself is debatable already, the real problem and the bulk of the reason many resist here is not the electric drivetrain but the accompanying additional, and massive, encroachment on personal freedoms by corporations, big brother style. Why should we just lie down and accept it as 'fate'?



These are very good points, the cycle speed of the feedback loop is an important advantage, so is AWD and the more favorable weight distribution. Not too much to do with electric drivetrains, though.



Again, this is simply reluctance on GM's and other automakers' part to actually serve their customers. Why wouldn't the same be possible by means of tune updates for our vehicles? Clearly the electric drivetrain is overprovisioned in those cars so that the manufacturer can send "updates" that basically flip a bit or change a number and they charge $2k for it. Smart business model, but nothing new conceptually or in terms of technology.

The useful lesson here for the incumbents would be to open up their software update process, and newcomers are definitely showing the way in this area. Yet again, nothing to do with the electric drivetrain.

I for one am not a huge fan of the single pedal, theme park bumper car driving experience, but that (and only that) is fully subjective, I do understand the fascination with instant torque.



Zero maintenance is nice, until you realize you have to get in line for service and wait several weeks or months. Parts are hideously expensive and hardly available. Tires will still have the same maintenance schedule. Also, the buy-in cost for these vehicles is so much higher at the moment that a few oil changes at $80-120 a pop once a year won't really tip the scales. This will definitely need to change if these companies want to see their market share of electric vehicles increase.


All in all, I think there would be much less resistance to this sort of change if it weren't for the political undercurrent and its forced nature. Who wouldn't like a pair of auxiliary electric motors on the front axle to help with the launch, for example—it's the bait-and-switch in terms of cars being converted to remote controlled appliances that I, and probably many others, are objecting to.

Yeah, EVs only account for like 2% of the vehicles on the road so we are just in the very early stages. I wonder if GM and other will shift their business models as a result of companies like Tesla and Rivian. Get away from dealerships and go with a direct model.

The one big thing that needs to improve is the software in the ICE based vehicles. The infotainment systems seem outdated the day you drive them off the lot and the lack upgradeability just seems archaic. The software OTA updates in EVs control all the sub-systems which is a huge advantage to enabling improvements after you buy the car.

[raptor5244]

Not a Camaro but this is a good video to highlight the jump you get in the mid range with an EV and no transmission and how long it takes to catch up once you get the lead. For those that haven’t driven an EV the instant power is the part that is hard to describe. You can see how hard it pulls away at both at 30 and 50 mph which is where we tend to use power in our everyday driving.

Since this video the Tesla has received another free 5% power boost and does the 1/4 mile in 11.5 sec now.

https://youtu.be/UmiZ6ayCBB0