[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by radz28

49ers suck

I see what you did there! Point taken, well done.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlap

You're missing that there was no S550 present when the ZL1's (M6 and A10) ran faster.

Having two test, each with a ZL1 and Shelby, allows a relative comparison of how much the set of track specific versions were ahead of their lower tier siblings.

I get what you are saying. You want to show that the difference between the CFTP and the R was not as large as the ZL1 and ZLE. And yes you have data that backs that up, but there's the * of the reviewers mentioning a slow track

I am saying I don't think that is a valid way to show a comparison of the two because of how slow the track was - which is why I brought up the first test of the standard ZL1 being faster than the ZLE in this test.

My original point is the throttle house guys said the track was slow, their words not mine. We can see now that it was running very slow, based on the regular ZL1 having a faster lap time at Big Willow in a different test. And I think that is what really throws it off for me, is a third data point that shows this track can be very fast.

We can both agree that same day, RP is not going to lap Big Willow faster in a standard ZL1 than a ZLE correct? So we can see how slow the track was which is why I don't think you can really say the gap between either the ZLE and ZL1 and CFTP and R is whatever. I am saying that for both the Camaro and the Mustang that I don't think this is the best way to see the gap between them.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by shaffe

I get what you are saying. You want to show that the difference between the CFTP and the R was not as large as the ZL1 and ZLE. And yes you have data that backs that up, but there's the * of the reviewers mentioning a slow track

I am saying I don't think that is a valid way to show a comparison of the two because of how slow the track was - which is why I brought up the first test of the standard ZL1 being faster than the ZLE in this test.

My original point is the throttle house guys said the track was slow, their words not mine. We can see now that it was running very slow, based on the regular ZL1 having a faster lap time at Big Willow in a different test. And I think that is what really throws it off for me, is a third data point that shows this track can be very fast.

We can both agree that same day, RP is not going to lap Big Willow faster in a standard ZL1 than a ZLE correct? So we can see how slow the track was which is why I don't think you can really say the gap between either the ZLE and ZL1 and CFTP and R is whatever. I am saying that for both the Camaro and the Mustang that I don't think this is the best way to see the gap between them.

Add one second to the lap time of the CFTP and ZLE as an offest for the slow day. Then do the relative comparison. The ZLE still gaps the CFTP by a magnitude.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Add one second to the lap time of the CFTP and ZLE as an offest for the slow day. Then do the relative comparison. The ZLE still gaps the CFTP by a magnitude.

I am not saying it doesn't nor was I trying to.

I was just saying I don't think your original post on the topic does either car justice is all when we can see how slow the track was during this most recent test.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by TreedYou

"Supercars that it was supposed to kill."
Ford said this? who is "they"...

Are you seriously not paying attention to anything bro? Maybe if you stopped spending your time following me around trolling me then you'd know. Geez.

https://www.slashgear.com/2020-musta...ease-14561779/

https://www.thextremexperience.com/b...iller-in-town/

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/ford...es-everything/

Originally Posted by TreedYou

Also I agreed with you on the ZL1 on many occasions that it's a beast.
Weren't you the one who was looking to buy a GT500?
Weren't you the one who said you read EVERYTHING and every post there is on the GT500?



And you say I am a fanatic, what does that make you?

It makes me knowledgeable and well informed. I asked you several questions about why the GT500 is going poorly and can't beat cars like the ZL1, ZLE, and C8s despite the huge power and price difference. You haven't answered it. I made comments on what I believe are the reasons. You argued it. You brought nothing to the table except statements like "you're totes adorbs" and memes which is what I'd expect from a 16 year old girl instead of a grown man. So here we are and you still haven't brought up any ideas on what TF is wrong with the GT500.

Here's a thought. The S197 Mustangs were solid axle and therefore weighed less than the IRS equipped Camaros. Therefore the Mustangs were typically faster in all trims. GM put the Camaro out with phenomenal performance and then moved on to the 6th Gen. Ford then updated the Mustang in 2013 and it got faster. What happened after that? Ford put IRS on the 2015 S550 Mustangs and they gained weight. Now instead of developing the S550 properly and trying to improve upon the performance it had ending with the S197 in 2014, Ford just gave it 15 more HP and it got slower. They also tried to just ever so slightly beat the 5th Gen Z28 and ZL1. Which they did with the GT350 and GT350R. But as shaffe will tell you, that was short sighted on their part and they got caught with their pants down. By the time they looked up the 16 SS arrived and was beating the snot out of the PP1 and matching if not beating the 350.

Meanwhile GM developed the entire 6th Gen Camaro to be faster, more powerful, handle much better, and to be smaller and lighter. And it was a success. The 6th Gen Camaro SS matched the performance of the 5th Gen Z28/ZL1. The 6th Gen SLE took it a step further. GM then applied that same philosophy to the 17 ZL1 which resulted in a more powerful lighter smaller quicker faster ZL1. If the SS matched the best of the 5th Gen, then you could say the ZL1 doubled down and hit Blackjack. The ZL1 was pretty much unbeatable...and still is. A magazine from 3 years ago said that the Hellcat and GT500s would have no chances of beating the then current ZL1.

"Would the Shelby GT500 or Hellcat be able to keep up? No way. This thing freaking flies. Those Goodyears are not only remarkable, but the Camaro team also did a wondrous job with the ZL1's rearend, both lowering the roll center and making the familial electronic limited-slip differential (eLSD in GM speak) work better here than in any other application. This baby is a drift machine. Also, and quite importantly, the rear wheels have no problem putting down all the LT4's power. I tried several of the Performance Traction modes (Wet, Sport 1, Sport 2, Race), but I quickly realized that the ZL1 is so capable that turning off all nannies was the optimum way to roll."

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/chev...e-squad-goals/

That is the difference between these cars and why the GT500 with all that mega power still can't beat the ZL1 from 3 years ago. GM built an entire car from the ground up to be the best in all three parameters...street, strip, track. Ford simply built a new Gen Mustang with some cool new features, 15 more HP, and IRS. Then they settled for attacking the Z28 in it's last year of production which was stupid. Because of all that Ford had to go back and re-do the entire Mustang so it could compete again. RP or someone said on a track that the SLE was world's apart (or something to that effect) from the PP1. In fact I think he said "it isn't even close". And that was I believe AFTER the 18 refresh. Ford had to again go back and develop the PP2 which overheated because yet again, they were not building an entire car around a purpose, they simply threw some parts at it. They had to re-do the Shelbys. The Bullitt was a swing and a miss. ANd that leads up to the GT500. They cut soo many corners with the GT500 even after 2 years of delays. Again their recipe was to just throw more HP at it. The dang car is unstable over 180 MPH...which if you know about suspension and chassis, a car that can go 200 MPH safely and be planted will always be better than one that can't. From what I understand it doesn't have eLSD. It is heavy as hell. At it's weight there is no way it will run consistently. And to combat the weight Ford simply threw CF stuff all over the damn place. Meanwhile the ZL1, ZLE, and C8s do not need CF anywhere.

This all goes back to what I have been trying to say. That the Camaros and Corvettes are more well developed than the Mustangs are. GM built their cars for a purpose and built the entire car so that the sum is greater than the parts. Remember when I said "Gestalt theory"? That is it in action. All alone the LT4 engine would not be a threat to the Hellcats and GT500s. But when put together around an entire car it is a monster. That is called synergy. Ford went the other route. They threw great parts around at a structure that cannot handle it. And those parts are not working well together. Which is why the C8 will dust it in the quarter mile, 0-60, and around anything but a straight-ass track. Which is why out of about 6 runs only 1 was a 10.7 and the others were not mentioned at all. Which is why magazines can't get the car in the high 10s if their lives depended on it. I bet, if they tried, they could get a C8 in the 10.9s...but I digress.

These points that you walk around here trying to argue with me about is why the GT500 is where it is. Behind. There is no way it shouldn't be able to beat the ZL1 at everything by a substantial difference. It should be up there with the ZR1. Imagine the ZR1 against the ZL1. That is what we should be seeing. The ZL1 stands no chance at anything against the ZR1. And at first when the GT500 was mentioned people thought the ZL1 would get destroyed in the quarter mile and that the CF would beat the standard ZL1. I remember saying I thought the ZL1 was going to be able to beat the Base AND CF 500 in the quarter mile and that it would beat both around a track. And so far the closest info we have has the standard ZL1 beating the CF around a track, in the quarter mile based on time, on a street with a quarter mile based on distance, top speed, all for $30K less. The only one stat where the CF 500 has won against the ZL1 is roll racing...up to 180 MPH.

Having said all that, how anyone can deny that the GT500 is not all they made it out to be is beyond me. Is it a fast car? Absolutely. On a track with prep and ideal conditions will it beat a ZL1? Absolutely. But for the price, time it took to build, and the HP difference, is it destroying any of it's competitors like it should? Far from it.

[shaffe]

Not going to go back and cut through quotes but a lot of what Blaq said is spot on. I disagree with a few things but for most part he is right. GM went full performance with the Camaro 6. They built a performance car then shaped a coupe around it. That is why it is the better performing car. Ford built a better coupe then added performance to it, which is why it is not a better performing car.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Not going to go back and cut through quotes but a lot of what Blaq said is spot on. I disagree with a few things but for most part he is right. GM went full performance with the Camaro 6. They built a performance car then shaped a coupe around it. That is why it is the better performing car. Ford built a better coupe then added performance to it, which is why it is not a better performing car.

Yup, he is right. You need to look no further than the fact they are neck and neck at basically everything, with the ZL1 being down 110 HP.

If they had the same HP, or even 50 more to the ZL1, the 500 would get pummeled at everything! THAT is proof that the platform is simply better. Lighter, stronger, more capable, and more planted.

The ZL1 is 3 years old and needs no updates to compete with Ford's newest and best ever Mustang. GM has moved on already in fact.

All that said, the 500 is a better coupe. I think it would be a great car to own for those that like DCT's or autos in their performance cars.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

Yup, he is right. You need to look no further than the fact they are neck and neck at basically everything, with the ZL1 being down 110 HP.

If they had the same HP, or even 50 more to the ZL1, the 500 would get pummeled at everything! THAT is proof that the platform is simply better. Lighter, stronger, more capable, and more planted.

The ZL1 is 3 years old and needs no updates to compete with Ford's newest and best ever Mustang. GM has moved on already in fact.

All that said, the 500 is a better coupe. I think it would be a great car to own for those that like DCT's or autos in their performance cars.

What makes the 500 a better coupe? Honest question. The CFTP doesn't even come with a back seat. Neither 500 comes with all the amenities that a standard ZL1 comes with. No vented seats, no convertible or sunroof option either. So what makes it better?

[ZRacerLE]

I don't know if Blaq is 100% correct, but he gets me pretty fired up about my car. Thanks Blaq!

[BlaqWhole]

And just like that, (poof) TreedYou has disappeared. He will reappear in like 2 days, ignore everything said here, and go right back to his trolling ways.

Originally Posted by shaffe

Not going to go back and cut through quotes but a lot of what Blaq said is spot on. I disagree with a few things but for most part he is right. GM went full performance with the Camaro 6. They built a performance car then shaped a coupe around it. That is why it is the better performing car. Ford built a better coupe then added performance to it, which is why it is not a better performing car.

A few of the things I said are things you and I have disagreed on in the past. So I did not expect you to fully agree with me. But the difference between you and others is that you offer up counterpoints, data, info, and you do it in a way that we can go back and forth for days. Which is why I never called or considered you a troll...at least I don't think I ever did. If I did then it was probably a last resort in an attempt to get under your skin, lol!! I call these other guys trolls because they do the exact opposite. Even newmoon, although he can be troll-ish, I do not consider him 100% troll. I think he says things out of boredom and just to get a conversation going. I could be completely wrong tho. LOL!

Anyway, we haven't had a good back and forth in a while. So what exactly do you disagree with?

Originally Posted by ST1LE

Yup, he is right. You need to look no further than the fact they are neck and neck at basically everything, with the ZL1 being down 110 HP.

If they had the same HP, or even 50 more to the ZL1, the 500 would get pummeled at everything! THAT is proof that the platform is simply better. Lighter, stronger, more capable, and more planted.

The ZL1 is 3 years old and needs no updates to compete with Ford's newest and best ever Mustang. GM has moved on already in fact.

All that said, the 500 is a better coupe. I think it would be a great car to own for those that like DCT's or autos in their performance cars.

I wonder if it was luck that GM stumbled across this chassis and it worked soo well or if they knew beforehand that this was the one. Because the 6th Gen is leaps and bounds above the 5th Gen. And that says a lot, because I thought the 5th Gen was phenomenal. I still do think it is amazing. I wouldn't hesitate to get a 5th Gen ZL1 and mod it to the moon and back!!

Originally Posted by ZRacerLE

I don't know if Blaq is 100% correct, but he gets me pretty fired up about my car. Thanks Blaq!

This car is honestly the epitome of what I think a performance car should be. It basically sits on the edge of just about every metric without tipping too far to either side. GM hit it out the park. And buying this car was the best car decision I ever made.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

What makes the 500 a better coupe? Honest question. The CFTP doesn't even come with a back seat. Neither 500 comes with all the amenities that a standard ZL1 comes with. No vented seats, no convertible or sunroof option either. So what makes it better?

I think he means overall. As far as functionality and practicality, the GT500 would be the better choice. Like I said, I cannot fit a laundry basket or my suitcases in this car. And with me in it, there is only enough room for 1 other adult and maybe a small chick can squeeze in the back. The visibility, while not even a second thought to me, is a deterrent to some. And the ZLE is a rough ride. All that said, I will agree that as a "coupe" and as a DD the GT500 would be easier to live with.

But I did not buy my car for any of those reasons. I bought it for the performance. So for me and others who think along the same lines and who have an alternate vehicle(s) for DD stuff, the ZL1 is the better "car".

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

What makes the 500 a better coupe? Honest question. The CFTP doesn't even come with a back seat. Neither 500 comes with all the amenities that a standard ZL1 comes with. No vented seats, no convertible or sunroof option either. So what makes it better?

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I think he means overall. As far as functionality and practicality, the GT500 would be the better choice. Like I said, I cannot fit a laundry basket or my suitcases in this car. And with me in it, there is only enough room for 1 other adult and maybe a small chick can squeeze in the back. The visibility, while not even a second thought to me, is a deterrent to some. And the ZLE is a rough ride. All that said, I will agree that as a "coupe" and as a DD the GT500 would be easier to live with.

But I did not buy my car for any of those reasons. I bought it for the performance. So for me and others who think along the same lines and who have an alternate vehicle(s) for DD stuff, the ZL1 is the better "car".

Yeah, that is what I meant, honestly I cant add much at all. That is also why the 500 price(especially track pack) is just too much. For the actual prices paid in the real world, I can get a ZL1 and a DD. Whatever faults there are, become moot at that point.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I think he means overall. As far as functionality and practicality, the GT500 would be the better choice. Like I said, I cannot fit a laundry basket or my suitcases in this car. And with me in it, there is only enough room for 1 other adult and maybe a small chick can squeeze in the back. The visibility, while not even a second thought to me, is a deterrent to some. And the ZLE is a rough ride. All that said, I will agree that as a "coupe" and as a DD the GT500 would be easier to live with.

But I did not buy my car for any of those reasons. I bought it for the performance. So for me and others who think along the same lines and who have an alternate vehicle(s) for DD stuff, the ZL1 is the better "car".

If he does mean a better coupe for visibility and luggage and zipping down to the golf course with your clubs then ok I can see that. I was generally interested because people say the same thing about all the Mustangs and I just disagree. I prefer performance and vented seats and the like over suitcase space.

I am fortunate enough to have multiple cars and I'll agree the Camaro isnt easy to DD. I dont DD drive mine in fact. I use a performance sedan for trips and taking the wife and friends out and if that is what they would use the 500 for (or any Mustang really) over the Camaro offerings then ok that's fair.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

Yeah, that is what I meant, honestly I cant add much at all. That is also why the 500 price(especially track pack) is just too much. For the actual prices paid in the real world, I can get a ZL1 and a DD. Whatever faults there are, become moot at that point.

I dont disagree with you at all. Like I said earlier I dont DD mine lol.