[LESS1]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Take a GT PP2, throw an auto DCT on it, slap a blower on it, and give it some coolers, and voila, GT500. That is what it seems like to me. I doubt Ford put much more into it other than throwing CF stuff everywhere.

I'm in agreement with you that the R should beat the Base 500 around most tracks. The CF 500 will beat the R on just about every track. The ZL1 will beat everything except for the CF 500 on just about every track...and I'd be bold enough to say the standard ZL1 will beat even the CF 500 on some tracks. As far as the ZLE and CF, well the Shelby will need to be on the fastest tracks AND stay close in the corners to win. If those 2 conditions are not met then I doubt any Shelby will beat the ZLE on any track at all. Which will be cool to know that Ford could not beat the ZLE on any track at all and at best could only manage a 2-3 tenths win in the quarter.

And that being the case, the Shelby is in even more of a pickle because faster cars are on the way. Each of which will most likely be able to be optioned in cheaper. The GS and Z06 at base MSRP and without any addons should come in a good deal under $94K. I'd say maybe around $85K for the 1LZ Z06. And about $72 for the 1LT GS. The GS might not beat the CF 500 around a track but it will most definitely give it some scars to take home. And in testing the GS will probably hit 10s while the 500 will still struggle in the mid-low 11s. The Z06 is going to wipe it out completely in every area regardless of track, conditions, whatever. I'm betting that even on a prepped strip the Z06 is going to spank every Mustang that finds itself in the opposite lane. And it won't even be necessary to test them around a track. While being cheaper. Not a good look for the M6G crowd.

Not so certain the C8 GS won't take out CF 500 around certain tracks given the fall off in lap times after what 3 laps? Thrown in a nice warm summer day and I'd wouldn't be surprised to see an even bigger drop in lap times. If the drop is ~ 1 second after 3 or so laps, what happens after 15 to 20 mins on track? GS for the win! And I totally agree on Z06, not even in the same galaxy. Can't wait for all the rags to compare CF 500 vs C8 Z06, what a joke that will be. Also, I'm beginning to think the new GT owners need to be worried once C8 Z06 is released. Can you imagine... Ford's top of the line $500K GT "Supercar" getting pummeled in every category by a ~$100K C8 Z06? But it's collectible... yep sure is collecting rock chips from my tires as I blast by you lap after lap.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by LESS1

Not so certain the C8 GS won't take out CF 500 around certain tracks given the fall off in lap times after what 3 laps? Thrown in a nice warm summer day and I'd wouldn't be surprised to see an even bigger drop in lap times. If the drop is ~ 1 second after 3 or so laps, what happens after 15 to 20 mins on track? GS for the win! And I totally agree on Z06, not even in the same galaxy. Can't wait for all the rags to compare CF 500 vs C8 Z06, what a joke that will be. Also, I'm beginning to think the new GT owners need to be worried once C8 Z06 is released. Can you imagine... Ford's top of the line $500K GT "Supercar" getting pummeled in every category by a ~$100K C8 Z06? But it's collectible... yep sure is collecting rock chips from my tires as I blast by you lap after lap.

True, I did not take that into account.

In fact, I wonder if any of these Mustang guys have a rebuttal for the fact that the 500 dropped off in such a fantastic manner after just 1 lap. They argued to the teeth with me that Mustang don't suffer more than Camaros...yet the best Mustang available lost a full second by the third lap.

Anyway, factoring in that full second loss after 3 laps, I wonder how well the C8 Z51 would do against the 500 after a 5 lap run. I wonder if the C8 would catch up to and beat the C8 after 2 laps. That being the case, in the middle of Summer, light to light, does the 500 stand a chance against the ZL1s and C8s and C7 Zs??

Another example of design and development over tossing a blower and big brakes on a 4200 pound porker. GM built the ZL1 so that it will not overheat even when pushed to it's limit on a hot day. Frod slapped a blower and bigger coolers and bigger brakes on an already suffering chassis as a bandaid in hopes that it will run better even if for just the first lap and nothing more. Everything we have seen points to this.

BTW, the HC and RE have shitty tires and that is why they do soo horribly in the quarter mile bone stock. What is the 500's excuse? The 500 has some pretty damn good tires on it. So why is it putting out 700+ to the wheels but can't do better than 11.3 unless prepped track and ideal conditions? I'm betting even with DRs it won't do much better on an unprepped or not so good prepped strip.

I think Frod had their time to shine with the 500. But now that it is out and being tested and questions are popping up, it ain't soo hot anymore.

[Martinjlm]

In all fairness to Ford, they did do some additional work to the suspension. It is evident in the 2019 GT350, which they specifically said would get some suspension modifications based on what they found in GT500 development. Ditto the GT350R. Having briefly driven a 2017 GT350 and a 2019 GT350, I can immediately feel the difference. Big improvement. Similarly, I drove a 2019 Bullitt and a 2019 GT350 within a week of each other. The differences in handling and ride field were astounding. GT350 is more than just a GT with a better MT and coolers. And I expect that the GT500 is more than just a GT with a blower, a DCT, big brakes and coolers.

But in any event, I’m still feelin’ a C8 GS or Z06 over a GT500 (either version) when the time comes.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by LESS1

Not so certain the C8 GS won't take out CF 500 around certain tracks given the fall off in lap times after what 3 laps? Thrown in a nice warm summer day and I'd wouldn't be surprised to see an even bigger drop in lap times. If the drop is ~ 1 second after 3 or so laps, what happens after 15 to 20 mins on track? GS for the win! And I totally agree on Z06, not even in the same galaxy. Can't wait for all the rags to compare CF 500 vs C8 Z06, what a joke that will be. Also, I'm beginning to think the new GT owners need to be worried once C8 Z06 is released. Can you imagine... Ford's top of the line $500K GT "Supercar" getting pummeled in every category by a ~$100K C8 Z06? But it's collectible... yep sure is collecting rock chips from my tires as I blast by you lap after lap.

LOL...really? You think Jay Leno will be upset that his C8 Z06 is faster than his Ford GT, the same Ford GT that he would be able to sell for a lot more than he bought it for one day? You dont really think people that can buy $500K cars are Ford fan boys do you?

Rich car guys dont give a crap about stuff like that. They are the kind of people that will park the first C8 Z06 to come off the line right next to their Ford GT in their garage of cars worth MILLIONS of dollars and smile at their awesome collection, not once being upset about which is faster than which.

The ones who will be upset are the fan bois that drive Mustang GT's and scream from a mountain that Ford is blessed by Jesus himself, not the people that actually buy Ford GT's.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

In all fairness to Ford, they did do some additional work to the suspension. It is evident in the 2019 GT350, which they specifically said would get some suspension modifications based on what they found in GT500 development. Ditto the GT350R. Having briefly driven a 2017 GT350 and a 2019 GT350, I can immediately feel the difference. Big improvement. Similarly, I drove a 2019 Bullitt and a 2019 GT350 within a week of each other. The differences in handling and ride field were astounding. GT350 is more than just a GT with a better MT and coolers. And I expect that the GT500 is more than just a GT with a blower, a DCT, big brakes and coolers.

But in any event, I’m still feelin’ a C8 GS or Z06 over a GT500 (either version) when the time comes.

If you were aware of the changes before you drove the 17 and 19 GT350s then it could be argued that there might have been some placebo element added in. You might have in some way been expecting the 19 to perform better and therefore it might have felt like it did. Kinda like how after an oil change my cars feel much faster. Or how after I let someone drive one of my cars they feel weird and sluggish. The only way to know for sure would be if Ford allowed a comparo with the 17 and 19 Shelbys to prove that they actually did tweak the newer ones. I am not aware that such a test exists. So I have to remain skeptical.

Plus, a 17 is older and might be slightly worn vs a fresher (at that particular time) 19. So that could explain why the 19 felt different. Basically what I'm saying is that I doubt Ford did anything to the GT350s. If they did such a drastic improvement in the non-R, then those advances should have been included in the GT500 in which case with the additional HP the ZLE should not be a match at all. If the non-R felt that different then certainly the R could make up for those 4 tenths that it was behind the ZL1. And if that was employed on the 500 then there is no way in Hell the ZLE should "surpass" the 500 in anything. And definitely no way the C8 Z51 should have even been as close as it was to the 500. The R should be beating the ZL1 at this point and Frod should be encouraging a rematch to prove they tweaked it and just how much better it is. Yet the non-R is stuck battling the lackluster GT PP2...so that tells a lot right there. I don't think Frod did shit but add $5K to the price tag.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

True, I did not take that into account.

In fact, I wonder if any of these Mustang guys have a rebuttal for the fact that the 500 dropped off in such a fantastic manner after just 1 lap. They argued to the teeth with me that Mustang don't suffer more than Camaros...yet the best Mustang available lost a full second by the third lap.

Anyway, factoring in that full second loss after 3 laps, I wonder how well the C8 Z51 would do against the 500 after a 5 lap run. I wonder if the C8 would catch up to and beat the C8 after 2 laps. That being the case, in the middle of Summer, light to light, does the 500 stand a chance against the ZL1s and C8s and C7 Zs??

Another example of design and development over tossing a blower and big brakes on a 4200 pound porker. GM built the ZL1 so that it will not overheat even when pushed to it's limit on a hot day. Frod slapped a blower and bigger coolers and bigger brakes on an already suffering chassis as a bandaid in hopes that it will run better even if for just the first lap and nothing more. Everything we have seen points to this.

BTW, the HC and RE have shitty tires and that is why they do soo horribly in the quarter mile bone stock. What is the 500's excuse? The 500 has some pretty damn good tires on it. So why is it putting out 700+ to the wheels but can't do better than 11.3 unless prepped track and ideal conditions? I'm betting even with DRs it won't do much better on an unprepped or not so good prepped strip.

I think Frod had their time to shine with the 500. But now that it is out and being tested and questions are popping up, it ain't soo hot anymore.

I was pretty shocked by how close the Car and Driver review of the 500 was to what a lot of us have been saying here all along. That it will be a bear to drive at the limits along side the ZLE, and that its performance doesn't justify its price.

A little off topic, but we have been talking about Ford offering the 350 and the 500 at the same time for a while now. I went on to cargurus and was absolutely shocked to see SO many unsold(new) 2018 MY 350's. I stopped counting at 45, not sure how many there are sitting on lots but it is a shockling high number. I wonder if people stopped buying in anticipation of the 500, and Ford should have stopped production of the 350 a few MY's back. Will be interesting to see when/if they end production. I dont think manual purists will be enough to keep demand up enough to justify making it, and there are hundreds of new ones just sitting around for anyone that wants one, even an unsold 2017.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

LOL...really? You think Jay Leno will be upset that his C8 Z06 is faster than his Ford GT, the same Ford GT that he would be able to sell for a lot more than he bought it for one day? You dont really think people that can buy $500K cars are Ford fan boys do you?

Rich car guys dont give a crap about stuff like that. They are the kind of people that will park the first C8 Z06 to come off the line right next to their Ford GT in their garage of cars worth MILLIONS of dollars and smile at their awesome collection, not once being upset about which is faster than which.

The ones who will be upset are the fan bois that drive Mustang GT's and scream from a mountain that Ford is blessed by Jesus himself, not the people that actually buy Ford GT's.

Jay Leno might not. Dude is a celebrity worth 400 mil and probably gets driven everywhere anyway. He probably wouldn't know how to turn the windshield wipers on in any of his cars considering he has limos and shit. But someone else who might not be worth 400 mil might take into consideration that his $450K exclusive Frod GT will get it's ass whupped by a C8 Z06 which will probably cost around $85K. I know that would steam me up something proper.

However it could be argued that the GT was built some time ago...although the ZL1 and ZLE were built some time ago and the 500 can't beat them in a clear and decisive manner...lol!! I see it both ways.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Jay Leno might not. Dude is a celebrity worth 400 mil and probably gets driven everywhere anyway. He probably wouldn't know how to turn the windshield wipers on in any of his cars considering he has limos and shit. But someone else who might not be worth 400 mil might take into consideration that his $450K exclusive Frod GT will get it's ass whupped by a C8 Z06 which will probably cost around $85K. I know that would steam me up something proper.

However it could be argued that the GT was built some time ago...although the ZL1 and ZLE were built some time ago and the 500 can't beat them in a clear and decisive manner...lol!! I see it both ways.

Eh...maybe. I think a very limited production car that will go way up in value is a bad car to use as an example in this case. I just dont think GT buyers bought them for their speed, they bought them for their exclusivity, heritage, and future value. None of which are in anyway effected by the Z06 ass woopin' on the horizon.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

I was pretty shocked by how close the Car and Driver review of the 500 was to what a lot of us have been saying here all along. That it will be a bear to drive at the limits along side the ZLE, and that its performance doesn't justify its price.

A little off topic, but we have been talking about Ford offering the 350 and the 500 at the same time for a while now. I went on to cargurus and was absolutely shocked to see SO many unsold(new) 2018 MY 350's. I stopped counting at 45, not sure how many there are sitting on lots but it is a shockling high number. I wonder if people stopped buying in anticipation of the 500, and Ford should have stopped production of the 350 a few MY's back. Will be interesting to see when/if they end production. I dont think manual purists will be enough to keep demand up enough to justify making it, and there are hundreds of new ones just sitting around for anyone that wants one, even an unsold 2017.

I know for a fact that a lot of people held back on buying 350s once Frod leaked that infamous pic of the guy holding his hand up to the 500's rotors. In fact I do not know why anyone in their right mind would opt for a 350 even with a discount knowing the 500 was around the corner. But I guess some knew that ADMs would make it unattainable and that you'd be lucky to get your hands on one. So perhaps that is why people were still buying them. But it does seem like they slumped a bit in sales.

Perhaps, also, years of oil consumption and engine failures and lack of performance for the price as compared to the competition has finally taken it's toll. Now there are REs, and Z06s, and 4 door CTS-Vs, and Trackhawks, and cheap but roomy and more practical Hellcats etc out there. Each of these cars will flat out embarrass the hell out of a $70K R. Maybe people are coming to their sense and realizing that a car that runs 12.2 but is made for the track and yet still somehow manages to lose on the track while costing $70K (R) and $60K+ (non-R) while struggling against $40K and $50K SS and SLEs is not a good deal. LOL!!

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I know for a fact that a lot of people held back on buying 350s once Frod leaked that infamous pic of the guy holding his hand up to the 500's rotors. In fact I do not know why anyone in their right mind would opt for a 350 even with a discount knowing the 500 was around the corner. But I guess some knew that ADMs would make it unattainable and that you'd be lucky to get your hands on one. So perhaps that is why people were still buying them. But it does seem like they slumped a bit in sales.

Perhaps, also, years of oil consumption and engine failures and lack of performance for the price as compared to the competition has finally taken it's toll. Now there are REs, and Z06s, and 4 door CTS-Vs, and Trackhawks, and cheap but roomy and more practical Hellcats etc out there. Each of these cars will flat out embarrass the hell out of a $70K R. Maybe people are coming to their sense and realizing that a car that runs 12.2 but is made for the track and yet still somehow manages to lose on the track while costing $70K (R) and $60K+ (non-R) while struggling against $40K and $50K SS and SLEs is not a good deal. LOL!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....yup, there is that!

[Rodan]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Jay Leno might not. Dude is a celebrity worth 400 mil and probably gets driven everywhere anyway. He probably wouldn't know how to turn the windshield wipers on in any of his cars considering he has limos and shit.

You apparently don't know much about Leno. Try watching a few episodes of Jay Leno's garage... you might learn he's a true car guy, and drives a lot of the cars in his collection.

That said, it's true that wealthy guys with big collections mostly don't care about the performance differences. I have a couple of local friends with extensive (20+) car collections. One has a C7 ZO6, the other has a GT500 on order.

Neither of them give a shit about the performance and how it compares to other cars. It's highly unlikely either of them will be driven regularly, much less in anger at a track.

[Martinjlm]

Here’s how this rolls out for me. And first of all, I’ll just state for the record that even prior to GT500 and C8 launches I have been considering that my next performance car would either be a Base GT500 with Handling or a C8 GS or Z06.

So, fast forward to today and suppose I am buying a car today and it has to be either a CFTP or a ZLE. Here’s how my decision would probably fall out. One other thing, I do take my current car to the strip and the track and would probably do that even more so with the new car. I wouldn’t DD it, but I would drive it on most “nice days”

Performance:
I am seeing that there is a significant difference in 1/4 mile for the CFTP depending on whether prepped track or unprepped. I am not certain if Milan Dragway, the closest strip to me and the one I use most, is considered “prepped” or not compared to what we saw at Vegas / Texas. So CFTP would be the better 1/4 mile car for me. By how much seems to be track dependent.

We haven’t seen a true road course head to head yet, but based on the braking and slalom performance, I tend to put this category in the ZLE column until better information comes in. The Alpha platform is a beast and GM does great work in tuning it.

Just basic tooling around:
This could go either way for me. Clear win for the CFTP in terms of NVH. Clear win for ZLE in terms of appointments. The fact that ZLE includes heated and cooled seats, HUD, and an available PDR looms large in my decision making. The question would be does the content that I really want offset the difference in ride quality for me? I could flip flop on that issue all day, but would probably fall in on the side of if I’m not feelin’ the ride that day, there are other cars in my garage. The lack of back seats in the CFTP would be a non-issue for me, considering again, more cars in the garage plus the intent is to buy a performance car that I can drive on the street, strip, or track.

Appearance:
Both look good to me. CFTP slightly better. To be honest, if I had to rank Camaro and Mustang models in order of preference of appearance, the order (favorite to less favored) would be GT-350 —> SS 1LE —> ZL1 —> GT500 Base —> SS —> PP2 —> CFTP —> ZLE —> all the others. None are fugly, but that’s my order of preference. Not enough difference between my feel for CFTP or ZLE to be a deal breaker.

So choose damn it:
First, neither of these cars would be my first choice of a Camaro or a Mustang, but I did say I would choose specifically between these two. I think in this case, the difference in price would land me in the ZLE. If they were the same price I’d probably land in the CFTP. The HUD, seats, and PDR would pretty much make me feel better about the ZLE decision. If I go out and get my lunch handed to me on a drag strip, so be it. I’d be happy with being able to hit 11.5-ish. If I did better than CFTP on some road courses, cool. If I got smoked in the straights on other courses, still cool. I live with that today taking my SS Vert onto road courses. I lead some, I get gapped by some. When I get home I’m still smiling.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

If you were aware of the changes before you drove the 17 and 19 GT350s then it could be argued that there might have been some placebo element added in. You might have in some way been expecting the 19 to perform better and therefore it might have felt like it did. Kinda like how after an oil change my cars feel much faster. Or how after I let someone drive one of my cars they feel weird and sluggish. The only way to know for sure would be if Ford allowed a comparo with the 17 and 19 Shelbys to prove that they actually did tweak the newer ones. I am not aware that such a test exists. So I have to remain skeptical.

Sorry, you got this all wrong. Part of my job both at GM (2010 - 17) and at IHS Markit (current) involve objectively driving many different vehicles under many different conditions and providing opinions and evaluation of multiple aspects of powertrain performance and ride and handling. I know when I’m gonna have steak and when I‘m gonna have pork chops. Knowing ahead of time doesn’t change the taste.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Plus, a 17 is older and might be slightly worn vs a fresher (at that particular time) 19. So that could explain why the 19 felt different. Basically what I'm saying is that I doubt Ford did anything to the GT350s. If they did such a drastic improvement in the non-R, then those advances should have been included in the GT500 in which case with the additional HP the ZLE should not be a match at all. If the non-R felt that different then certainly the R could make up for those 4 tenths that it was behind the ZL1. And if that was employed on the 500 then there is no way in Hell the ZLE should "surpass" the 500 in anything. And definitely no way the C8 Z51 should have even been as close as it was to the 500. The R should be beating the ZL1 at this point and Frod should be encouraging a rematch to prove they tweaked it and just how much better it is. Yet the non-R is stuck battling the lackluster GT PP2...so that tells a lot right there. I don't think Frod did shit but add $5K to the price tag.

When I drove the ‘17 it was a fresh car and it was driven at GM Proving Grounds in a competitive drive event that also included an SS 1LE (which I did not drive, oddly enough) and a ZL1 (which I did drive). This was prior to the launch of ZL1. The ‘19 is a car that was actually slightly less fresh in that it had several thousand miles on it (I think in the 7k range, but I’ve driven so many cars this year I may be confusing with something else). I did drive it a week after driving a Bullitt and found it hard to believe they were actually built on the same chassis. Ford did a lot of work on the GT350 compared to the Bullitt / GT suspension.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by LESS1

Not so certain the C8 GS won't take out CF 500 around certain tracks given the fall off in lap times after what 3 laps? Thrown in a nice warm summer day and I'd wouldn't be surprised to see an even bigger drop in lap times. If the drop is ~ 1 second after 3 or so laps, what happens after 15 to 20 mins on track? GS for the win! And I totally agree on Z06, not even in the same galaxy. Can't wait for all the rags to compare CF 500 vs C8 Z06, what a joke that will be. Also, I'm beginning to think the new GT owners need to be worried once C8 Z06 is released. Can you imagine... Ford's top of the line $500K GT "Supercar" getting pummeled in every category by a ~$100K C8 Z06? But it's collectible... yep sure is collecting rock chips from my tires as I blast by you lap after lap.

I'm not sure where you guys saw the lap times fall off, Blaqs fb video didn't work for me, but it's funny how the MT guys insinuated that it didn't heat soak like the zr1 yet in reality apparently it can't maintain a constant pace lap after lap.