[TheRealJA105]

OK so I didn't miss the laptimes. If they don't release them it HAS to be because Ford will not allow it, but i really hope they are just generating more views and will be posting another article.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

No. Incorrect. Different engine setups and power adder setups are affected differently. Cars with a better design, better cooling, better factory tuning, differences in eLSD, etc all play a role. Some engines heat soak worse than others.

For an example, look at the 370Zs. They have very inefficient oil cooling and are known to go into limp mode pretty easily. A Camaro SS would not have that same issue. Put both cars on a drag strip in the middle of July and I will bet you that the 350Z will go into limp mode and run 14s while the SS will still run pretty damn well.

If you look at my comment you would see that I used results from what the manufacturers claim and what we are seeing during testing. I then used what we have seen from the best runs. However I will omit all individual owner runs.

The 500 in testing has been stuck in the 11.3-11.5 range during testing. Ford claims that in ideal conditions it will do 10.7. So that is almost a full second. That is going by the Base 500 only. 10.7 to 11.5. On the other hand GM claims either 11.3 or 11.4 for the ZL1. I do not remember which. So I will use 11.3 to give it a wider range so as to be fair. And so nobody can accuse me of giving it the better range. Anyway. In testing we have seen the standard ZL1 anywhere from 11.4 to 11.6. That is a difference of 2 to 3 tenths. So there is a much wider variance with the 500 than there is with the ZL1.

I'm not talking about heat soak. If anyone wants to run their best time they won't be hot lapping the car. The Camaro is superior in cooling design we all know that.
When you omit the private owner runs i will agree on the Camaro being much more consistent.

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

Isn't the 12.3 zle a manual guy though? These cars all run slower but comparing a manuals consistency to a bunch of autos isn't fair as there is tons of room for operator error

Yeah he was. Me running 12 flat in my Hellcat was a major factor in me leaving the manual purist club. You just can't beat these autos now...

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Maybe they can have their engineers work after hours and off the clock in another 6 years and cook up an even higher version GT500...GT500 CF-2! Maybe then they'll beat the ZLE.

100% hilarious

Originally Posted by Rodan

Watch... the next excuse will be "well, it's not a track car"... "it has a nicer ride than the ZLE"... etc.

YES I can't wait for these excuses!

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Well it depends on how far behind you already were. The GT500 gets to 100 MPH faster...but that does not mean it is ahead when both cars reach 100. Look at the 0-60 and that might help explain things a bit better. Basically the Camaro, being the more balanced of the two cars, is already ahead. So the GT500 at 100 MPH is gaining steam and catching up. By the quarter mile it passed the ZL1 but only by 1 tenth because it needed the rest of that time to cover the ground.

I raced a guy who had a killer launch. He took off and left me behind. However my car was much faster. So I had to spend the quarter mile catching up to him. By the end of the quarter mile we both crossed at about the same time but I was a full second quicker. So sometimes a car that launches much better will have you spending most of your time playing catch up.

First part you are correct, but second part I don't think you understand how a drag strip timer works unless you were totally sleeping at the light and had a 0.9 reaction time.

[Rodan]

Originally Posted by joe944

So the GT3 RS had regular cup 2's, not the R's.

Explains why it posted up slower lap times than previously posted times.

That explains a LOT. Now the GT3 times at Chuckwalla make sense.

BTW, the fanbois are out in force over at M6G now... bagging on the 'bad visibility' of the Camaro, and how the ZLE brakes "fade badly" after several laps (that's a new one on me??). "A skidpad isn't a racetrack..." Et cetera.

Pretty embarassing for them.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by TheRealJA105

YES I can't wait for these excuses!

The latest excuse is that braking, skidpad, 0-60, and 1/4 mile times are all meaningless data points that will not affect the 500's ability to turn a faster lap.

Time to 150 mph and trap speed are the only metrics that matter they say.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

The latest excuse is that braking, skidpad, 0-60, and 1/4 mile times are all meaningless data points that will not affect the 500's ability to turn a faster lap.

Time to 150 mph and trap speed are the only metrics that matter they say.

Lol.

[shaffe]

That site is just a disaster

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by shaffe

That site is just a disaster

It is pretty bad, nothing like what happens there exists here. We have fanbois and hard core GM guys, but we don't deny every data point like a bunch of flat earthers like the few over on M6G do.

That said, I think the 4-5 crazy ones just talk louder than everyone else, but they are in reality in the minority there and even lately in the VS thread they are outnumbered by level headed Mustang owners.

Pretty soon they wont have any more magazines they can trust, all in GM's pocket spouting fake news.

[joe944]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

It is pretty bad, nothing like what happens there exists here. We have fanbois and hard core GM guys, but we don't deny every data point like a bunch of flat earthers like the few over on M6G do.

That said, I think the 4-5 crazy ones just talk louder than everyone else, but they are in reality in the minority there and even lately in the VS thread they are outnumbered by level headed Mustang owners.

Pretty soon they wont have any more magazines they can trust, all in GM's pocket spouting fake news.

As I've mentioned before, I was interested in the GT350 before I knew the ZL1 even existed, and started checking out forums and whatnot from both sides. The fanboys over there dominate the discussions and start throwing out insults if you aren't one of them. With some notable exceptions, the conversations are generally more level-headed around here.

I re-hashed a conversation that Millhouse had in a thread about the GT500 struggling for low speed traction on the street. But because I posted about it, and not him, it was attacked as being not relevant.

These are street cars. Regardless of street racing, the performance of a street car on the street, matters. Now, the go to response when discussing performance on the street, is that street racing is illegal and only track times matter.

Being able to put power down matters in many more situations than just racing. I certainly don't drive my car near the limits on back roads, but I feel comfortable with the ZL1 getting on the throttle coming out of turns, even when the road situations are not ideal, which tends to be the case with these kinds of coastal roads.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by joe944

As I've mentioned before, I was interested in the GT350 before I knew the ZL1 even existed, and started checking out forums and whatnot from both sides. The fanboys over there dominate the discussions and start throwing out insults if you aren't one of them. With some notable exceptions, the conversations are generally more level-headed around here.

I re-hashed a conversation that Millhouse had in a thread about the GT500 struggling for low speed traction on the street. But because I posted about it, and not him, it was attacked as being not relevant.

These are street cars. Regardless of street racing, the performance of a street car on the street, matters. Now, the go to response when discussing performance on the street, is that street racing is illegal and only track times matter.

Being able to put power down matters in many more situations than just racing. I certainly don't drive my car near the limits on back roads, but I feel comfortable with the ZL1 getting on the throttle coming out of turns, even when the road situations are not ideal, which tends to be the case with these kinds of coastal roads.

Me too. The 350 is a beautiful car, and Ford did a good job sorting that chassis out. I have my issues with it, but it is a real nice car.

Treedyou tried that same argument here. A lot of people, especially these days, will discredit a test that provides data they don't like. 90%-95% of GT500s will never see a strip or a track, trying to say acceleration on an unprepared surface is irrelevant, defies logical thought in my opinion, as you said these are street cars, not race cars. It isn't the only thing that matters, but it is VERY important and will sway buying decision long before drag strip 1/4 mile times ever will.

As far as people trying to incorrectly translate any spirited street driving as street racing, also to feed their own narrative, has to promise never again to go WOT on a highway on ramp or passing slower traffic on a 2 way interstate, things that many drivers do everyday.

[Scottyz]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

Me too. The 350 is a beautiful car, and Ford did a good job sorting that chassis out. I have my issues with it, but it is a real nice car.

Treedyou tried that same argument here. A lot of people, especially these days, will discredit a test that provides data they don't like. 90%-95% of GT500s will never see a strip or a track, trying to say acceleration on an unprepared surface is irrelevant, defies logical thought in my opinion, as you said these are street cars, not race cars. It isn't the only thing that matters, but it is VERY important and will sway buying decision long before drag strip 1/4 mile times ever will.

As far as people trying to incorrectly translate any spirited street driving as street racing, also to feed their own narrative, has to promise never again to go WOT on a highway on ramp or passing slower traffic on a 2 way interstate, things that many drivers do everyday.

Well said.

[TheRealJA105]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

The latest excuse is that braking, skidpad, 0-60, and 1/4 mile times are all meaningless data points that will not affect the 500's ability to turn a faster lap.

Time to 150 mph and trap speed are the only metrics that matter they say.

That gap to 150 is scary at 4 seconds, but whats the difference from 70 to 140? That's where it will matter coming out of the turns on the track, the only spots where the GT500 will catch back up.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by TheRealJA105

That gap to 150 is scary at 4 seconds, but whats the difference from 70 to 140? That's where it will matter coming out of the turns on the track, the only spots where the GT500 will catch back up.

I got the impression from reading the article that the 500 lost on the track to the ZLE. I want some one to take these two cars back to VIR honestly.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Coincidentally, I just posted this over on “another site”.

It would seem that the 110 hp advantage could / should have delivered a clear win for GT500. Especially since the weight difference was 200 lbs as opposed to the earlier guesses at a 400 lb weight difference. Meaningless or not, the stats most often quoted when discussing performance cars are 0-60 and 1/4 mile time. Trap speed is important, but at the end of the day it’s the time that defines the winner or loser. GT500 won that by .1 second. I actually thought it would be more. Suffer me an anecdote. True story from when I was a kid. I didn’t have driver’s license yet, but believe me that didn’t matter.

My older brother used to street race to pay for his gas and insurance. At the time he had a Ford Galaxy 500. One day he decides to race for titles. The other car was a ‘73 Challenger with I think a 283 6-pack and posi-traction. He came home with the Challenger. His Galaxy 500 crossed the finish line first and the Challenger blew by him just past the finish line. Clearly at a much higher trap speed. Didn’t matter. So we get home. I drove the Galaxy home, he drove the Challenger. So what, I didn’t have a license. Like that was the most illegal thing we did that day. Anyway, we lined up at a light and went for it. He smoked me. I asked him why he had the nerve to race the Challenger if he knew it was that fast. He suggested we switch cars. Got to another light. I’m driving the Challenger, he’s driving the Galaxy. He smoked me. He said he had been scoping out the Challenger driver for weeks and realized that even with positraction, the guy didn’t know how to launch and that he was pretty sure he could get to the line before the Challenger caught up. Exactly what happened.

At the end of the day Car & Driver’s comparison show that ZL1-1LE and GT500 CFTP are a drivers race. Can’t wait to see what they came up with on the track, since both are track focused cars. It looks like this comparison took place at Willow Springs so you gotta figure that they did run them on the road course. Probably next month’s lead article.

Exactly my point. A faster car does not always make it to a specific distance faster. I could tell story after story about how many times I beat a faster car. Most of those stories was from my 5th Gen SS days.

Originally Posted by TreedYou

You repeated this before, didnt get enough attention last post I guess? Someone is looking for more validation.

At least I'm not obsessed or emotionally hurt by another car. Guess ford should just stop building it if it's such a catastrophic failure! I mean it's pretty much undriveable and slow right? Cant turn, can't stop? But yet here you are completely obsessed and the gt500 is in your mouth like toothpaste.

Like why did they even make that car right bro!?
I think they should scrap this POS and give people their money back I mean it literally does NOTHiNG good. ������

I think it does deserve some question as to why after 6 years they can't beat the ZL1. And I think it does need to be questioned if that entire time was spent on it or just a portion of that time. The ZL1 took a 1 year break even tho the LT4 was in the C7 in 2015. So what gives? Why is the GT500 struggling this much against cheaper cars with a significantly less amount of HP? Wasn't the 500 dynoing like 710 to the wheels or something bone stock? 11.3 is extremely sad for that kind of HP.

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

Well you can either accept that it was that far back until it caught up and passed, or put your blue oval tin foil hat on.

There's also the possibility that those numbers are all the best of different runs and not necessarily gathered from the same 1/4 run. Idk what their protocol is on that but I assume they ran them more than once each.

Being that far back at the 60 means you'd have to really overpower the other car to catch them and pass them. The GT500 does that. So I guess the Frod guys can have their win if a win means how fast you fly past a car AFTER the quarter mile. But regardless, if the mark is 1320 ft, then the GT500 is getting it's ass kicked and barely beating cars that are severely underpowered to it. I mean, I'd feel shitty if my ZL1 was only 1 tenth faster than something like a Mustang GT.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

I would bet they have to have some lap times coming....all though they did not mention any times so guess we have to wait and see.

We still don't know if it isn't faster around a course since we have no times. I say we wait and see what comes.

The article alludes to the ZL1 besting the GT500 around a track. Although they did not come out and say it in a straight forward manner, nor did they post up times, they did say the following...

"but the more affordable ZL1 1LE manages to match or surpass the Shelby's performance while offering a much longer list of features."

The way I see it, 11.3 on the 500 and 11.6 on the ZL1 can be considered a match. Although 2 tenths is a driver's race, I could see someone saying that 3 tenths is close enough to being a match. Remember, the S197 Coyotes were typically around 2 tenths faster than the 5th Gen Camaros and that was a driver's race. In some cases the GT managed 12.7 while the SS was always in the 12.9 - 13.1 range. But they were still a match. The second part, "surpass"...well that means that the ZL1 actually beat the 500 at something. So far we know it isn't the quarter mile. And I doubt they would consider braking and Gs an actual measurement worth mentioning if the ZL1 still lost around a track. So that must mean it beat the 500 around a track and they just didn't put the numbers up yet. This is all just speculation but I think it is very sound.

Originally Posted by TheRealJA105

I've got alot of catching up to do because I just found out about and read the article, but did I miss laptimes somewhere???

They did not publish actual lap times but statements made suggest the ZL1 beat the 500 around a track.

Originally Posted by hotlap

Does it? I've seen two publications with the ZL1 1LE and GT500. Both were lame

Edmunds ran the RE, GT500 and ZLE on an unprepped surface at sub 40º temps

Car and Driver mention the track but publish no times. Why are all the S550 comparisons lame?

GM has nothing to lose with the ZL1 being slower. Frod would have something to lose. So I think the mags are tiptoeing around this so the Mustang community as a whole won't have a conniption.

[TreedYou]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I think it does deserve some question as to why after 6 years they can't beat the ZL1. And I think it does need to be questioned if that entire time was spent on it or just a portion of that time. The ZL1 took a 1 year break even tho the LT4 was in the C7 in 2015. So what gives? Why is the GT500 struggling this much against cheaper cars with a significantly less amount of HP? Wasn't the 500 dynoing like 710 to the wheels or something bone stock? 11.3 is extremely sad for that kind of HP.

The GT500 is a cow of 2 ton car, weight plays a huge role in things wouldn't you agree?
You're also consistently talking about the slower times it runs that's what is called cherry picking and it doesn't erase the faster times another car runs.

"ER MERGERT THE GT FIVER HUNNERT IS AN 11 SECOND CAR FER 100K!!"

Can we call the ZL1 a 12 second car since I've seen those times in real life on real tracks and so have you with your own car
No I won't call it a 12 second car because of some bad runs, but you're going to erase all the 10 second runs from your memory the GT500 has?

YES ON A PREPPED SURFACE, why the hell wouldn't a drag strip with a tree and timers be prepped? (save for the morons that do no-prep and destroy their cars)

I've been to the track a few times and seen all kinds of cars run different numbers than people thought they would run.