[Rodan]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

Btw I thought debating here is bad sometimes, you should check out he numnuts on YouTube comments. I commented about the lap time differentials of the gt350r and gt3rs and the amount of nonsense I got back was mind blowing. Most are either 12 year olds or adults with below 5th grade level reading comprehension lol.

No kidding... YT is a complete shit show.

I used to think some of the videos were bad, but the comments...

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by TreedYou

No your "ford not letting magazines etc.." is a straight up tin foil hat conspiracy theory.

I'm glad I am around to witness the meltdown, looking forward to more

They have done it, and admitted to it in the past with BS excuses(as discussed in this thread days ago).

Why dont you refute his claims with some rationale and support instead of just stirring the pot?

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

They have done it, and admitted to it in the past with BS excuses(as discussed in this thread days ago).

Why dont you refute his claims with some rationale and support instead of just stirring the pot?

This ^ they have done it in the past....and when it was done the magazine was open about saying that Ford said no

[13vertss]

Originally Posted by minn19

Dunno, it'll be interesting to get some more times from places like Laguna Seca etc. Or if/when they lighting lap the GT500s.

There are many ameture videos of stock zl1 1le under 2 min at vir full. So just can’t see a pro not being faster then the track gt500.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

We are discussing the test YOU brought up. And this test you wanted to make a big stink about the braking and skid pad. YOU made it seem like another Ford fail. I presented you with evidence it's not far fetched for other or lesser models to do just that while still losing in other metrics. You tip toed around that and just said well that is ok bc the SSLE is awesome.




So it's ok for GM to do it but not Ford or anyone else. Got it.

It is another Ford fail. Because it is yet another stat where it loses to a lower trim. And because the only shot it has at beating anything is when it is up against the PP2 which is known to overheat.

The SLE has awesome brakes just like the ZL1 has. But the SLE is lighter. There is no significant weight difference between the GT PP2 and the 350. This was explained already by someone else. Why I have to spell it out again is beyond me.

Originally Posted by shaffe

If you read the article, the GT350 did not lose at anything other than those two measureables. If you read the article C&D said the PP2 stopped better and had better grip because of the wider tires up front.

How much more does a $60K+ car need to lose to a $15K cheaper lower trim car then? Is 2 not enough? LOL!! If the PP2 grips better and brakes better then maybe the 350 won only because it out muscled the PP2.

Originally Posted by shaffe

Again if you read the article, they said this: "In other track tests we've managed to overheat the GT PPL2's differential in just a few laps"

Key Word In other tests. Not in this test. They did not say the PP2 began to overheat a few laps this time. They said other times it had, not this time.

Yet they didn't post times. Is that not suspicious? For all you know it did start to overheat or start to show effects from overheating. It took one lap for it to overheat against the Camaro in the past.

Originally Posted by shaffe

That sure implies straight line speed. You also have continually bashed it for it's 1/4 performance.

Yea and there are those who continually bash the Camaro for sales and visibility. So there you go.

Originally Posted by shaffe

No, I think I actually get it better than you think. You say it's not about straightline speed but that's something you keep going back to. Your bashing of the 350 in a straightline would be like someone bashing a demon for having bad skidpad numbers or figure 8 numbers

No you don't get it. It is because it fails at everything AND is slow in the quarter mile for a modern car that is performance oriented and costs as much as it does.

Originally Posted by shaffe

I have said the GT350 should have gone away, it's had its time and has been passed by the competition. A compliment to how well GM did with their models that came out after the 350. At the time it came out there was nothing like it, and nothing performed like it. Now 5 years later yes it's been caught and passed. Yes Ford screwed up on the PP2 by not adding coolers but that is not why its 2 seconds slower on the track.

There were plenty of cars like it and better in the 1 year where it beat an outgoing Z28. The only thing it did that was different was the FPC engine which turned out to be a turd. After that 1 year where it beat the one car that Ford set it out against it got matched and passed and proved to be more expensive than what the performance would suggest.

Originally Posted by shaffe

But I am not making excuses I am calling it like I see it. Do I lean more Ford yeah I do. But to me a car that has virtually everything designed on it for road courses I am not going to criticize it for it's straight line speed. You can't seem to get past this. And like hotlap says, that's 1 specific combination of GT. If you think that's an excuse fine by me.

I have stated ford has had many fumbles this generation. GT350 early models not having coolers, PP2 not having coolers, how long it took GT500 to get here.

Yea and if GM had all these fumbles I would not be debating in their favor. Which is the difference between us. Your biggest excuse now is that the GT350 is not built for straight line speed. GM has time and again proven that they can build a car that does everything well. It can be done. So maybe I expect more from Ford than they are capable of doing. If that is so then I can see why you keep challenging me on what I say. Maybe it was too much for Ford to build something like Chevy has done. So maybe I should lower my expectations. Maybe it is unfair to think that Ford can keep up. I mean, the biggest thing they've done in 5 years was to build a 760 HP $94K car that managed a win against a 495 HP $65K Corvette and it was impressive only because it was a Corvette even tho it still managed to be slower in the quarter mile. Oh wait, it was built for the quarter mile right??

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

I tend to dismiss the whole notion of the gt350 being slower than the best GT. Makes no sense. I know I'll pick on the gt350 here and there to get under some fanboys skin but it's a badass car and m6 to m6 it always beats the best GT by at least 1-3 tenths at a much higher trap speed. It doesn't beat the camaro ss m6 to m6, they seem to be about the same, but it traps higher than the ss as well.

I don't see the point of comparing how the GT a10, really the GT a10*, is slightly faster. Really going by major magazine published run to published run the GT* is only a tenth faster at the gt350s best not counting fast list type times or prepped surface max effort "reviews" vs magazine times.

It was never because of just this one stat. It was everything involved that makes this worse than it would be if it were the only thing.

Granted, when I considered these cars years ago, I saw the 12.2 of the GT350 and the first thing I thought was that it was slow as hell for what it cost. This was back in 2015 BTW. 5 Years ago I thought it was too slow. Now it is just as slow but more expensive. Anyway, I still considered it but moved it down to the bottom of my list. After seeing what was out and what was up and coming I completely wrote it off. That was the best Ford had to offer which was a shame. Then came all the problems with that engine...

Originally Posted by TreedYou

No your "ford not letting magazines etc.." is a straight up tin foil hat conspiracy theory.

I'm glad I am around to witness the meltdown, looking forward to more

You don't even know what you're talking about. Read the comments below and then begone.

Originally Posted by ST1LE

They have done it, and admitted to it in the past with BS excuses(as discussed in this thread days ago).

Why dont you refute his claims with some rationale and support instead of just stirring the pot?

Originally Posted by shaffe

This ^ they have done it in the past....and when it was done the magazine was open about saying that Ford said no

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

It was never because of just this one stat. It was everything involved that makes this worse than it would be if it were the only thing.

Granted, when I considered these cars years ago, I saw the 12.2 of the GT350 and the first thing I thought was that it was slow as hell for what it cost. This was back in 2015 BTW. 5 Years ago I thought it was too slow. Now it is just as slow but more expensive. Anyway, I still considered it but moved it down to the bottom of my list. After seeing what was out and what was up and coming I completely wrote it off. That was the best Ford had to offer which was a shame. Then came all the problems with that engine...


You don't even know what you're talking about. Read the comments below and then begone.

I wasn't saying you specifically, just when people say how the GT is quicker in a blanket statement. I agree that low and mid 12s just aren't impressive for the price or power level. 526 hp would make you expect more, but the lack of low end grunt on an m6 doesn't help imo. Regardless still the fastest m6 s550.

Btw no gt350 was running 12.2 5 years ago lol, just the gt350r's. Gt350s have consistently been 12.3-12 5 cars (MT and c&d) until the latest car and driver test imprementinv the newly disclosed 1 foot rollout if memory serves well. Obviously I'm splitting hairs and being petty over 12.2 vs 12.3 lol.

[BlaqWhole]

Ford will allow the Gt500 to battle anything...as long as it isn't a ZL1, ZL1, C7 Z06, or anything where they won't have an advantage LOL!! I would be ashamed and embarrassed if my 760 HP GT500 had to be compared to ANY Subaru before a ZL1. And I can just see it now over on M6G..."wow man, the GT500 just beat a Subaru" LOL!! It probably still ran a mid 11. What a joke.

[TheRealJA105]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Super-expensive Mustangs are always winning in areas that just so happen to be impossible to measure in numbers. Like "cosmic" epicness or "it sounds better".

If it is after 1 lap then they'll put those results when it is compared to the GT350 as a way to protect the Shelby. So they'll run the PP2 until it slows down so they can say the GT350 is 2 seconds faster. Otherwise, against the SLE, they'll use it's best lap so they can call it a close match. LOL!!

The Mustangs do sound better, but it's so laughable when that's how they win a head to head after they lost every performance metric.
I think they are taking the PP2s fastest lap, so the first hot lap. I also didn't realize, until this article, that the PP2 has more tire than the 350. Like why wouldn't Ford put the 305s on the "updated" 350 now????????

Originally Posted by TreedYou

No your "ford not letting magazines etc.." is a straight up tin foil hat conspiracy theory.

I'm glad I am around to witness the meltdown, looking forward to more

As others have said, they've done it before. Ford is scared and covering their ass.

Originally Posted by 13vertss

There are many ameture videos of stock zl1 1le under 2 min at vir full. So just can’t see a pro not being faster then the track gt500.

Yep, but I doubt we'll see the real comparison we all want because of Ford not allowing it.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

The SLE has awesome brakes just like the ZL1 has. But the SLE is lighter. There is no significant weight difference between the GT PP2 and the 350. This was explained already by someone else. Why I have to spell it out again is beyond me.

How much more does a $60K+ car need to lose to a $15K cheaper lower trim car then? Is 2 not enough? LOL!! If the PP2 grips better and brakes better then maybe the 350 won only because it out muscled the PP2.

Yea and there are those who continually bash the Camaro for sales and visibility. So there you go.

No you don't get it. It is because it fails at everything AND is slow in the quarter mile for a modern car that is performance oriented and costs as much as it does.

There were plenty of cars like it and better in the 1 year where it beat an outgoing Z28. The only thing it did that was different was the FPC engine which turned out to be a turd. After that 1 year where it beat the one car that Ford set it out against it got matched and passed and proved to be more expensive than what the performance would suggest.

Yea and if GM had all these fumbles I would not be debating in their favor. Which is the difference between us. Your biggest excuse now is that the GT350 is not built for straight line speed. GM has time and again proven that they can build a car that does everything well. It can be done. So maybe I expect more from Ford than they are capable of doing. If that is so then I can see why you keep challenging me on what I say. Maybe it was too much for Ford to build something like Chevy has done. So maybe I should lower my expectations. Maybe it is unfair to think that Ford can keep up. I mean, the biggest thing they've done in 5 years was to build a 760 HP $94K car that managed a win against a 495 HP $65K Corvette and it was impressive only because it was a Corvette even tho it still managed to be slower in the quarter mile. Oh wait, it was built for the quarter mile right??

You are kind of condescending on the PP2 vs GT350 metrics and 1LE vs ZL1 metrics, but also have a great point that the 1LE is lighter so it should be better at those metrics. I do think the PP2 only wins those because of the tires though. Tires are the biggest performance aspect on all of these cars and alot of people do not understand that.
Yeah I just love it when the Mustang fanbois are losing at all performance conversations so they bring up sales. We aren't debating sales here.
Agree on the multiple years of Ford fumbles and failures.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

It was never because of just this one stat. It was everything involved that makes this worse than it would be if it were the only thing.

Granted, when I considered these cars years ago, I saw the 12.2 of the GT350 and the first thing I thought was that it was slow as hell for what it cost. This was back in 2015 BTW. 5 Years ago I thought it was too slow. Now it is just as slow but more expensive. Anyway, I still considered it but moved it down to the bottom of my list. After seeing what was out and what was up and coming I completely wrote it off. That was the best Ford had to offer which was a shame. Then came all the problems with that engine...
.

So spot on that it's still slow, unreliable, and even more expensive.

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

I wasn't saying you specifically, just when people say how the GT is quicker in a blanket statement. I agree that low and mid 12s just aren't impressive for the price or power level. 526 hp would make you expect more, but the lack of low end grunt on an m6 doesn't help imo. Regardless still the fastest m6 s550.

Btw no gt350 was running 12.2 5 years ago lol, just the gt350r's. Gt350s have consistently been 12.3-12 5 cars (MT and c&d) until the latest car and driver test imprementinv the newly disclosed 1 foot rollout if memory serves well. Obviously I'm splitting hairs and being petty over 12.2 vs 12.3 lol.

Track oriented builds are alway slower in the 1/4 than more of a street orientation as weight is added to get there. But the GT350 sounds like a good 1/4 match up for M6 non 1LE SSes, or even M6 LT1s. I dont understand why M6 GT coyotes aren't faster. Or are the latest ones in that same range?

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

It is another Ford fail.

I had a long reply written out, but no need for you and me to just fill up page after page with the same nonsense. We all know you don't like the 350. So lets just get back to our regularly scheduled programming

BTW This is the 3rd or 4th time I am asking you....Where are all those comparison tests of the GT500 where it had all those advantages and lost? I am still waiting. Show me all the tests I missed I am legit asking lol Did i miss some that were done

Because as far as I know there is still only 2 out as of now(3 with upcoming shootout of GT500 VS STI). the MT mashup and the Icons test.

Originally Posted by TheRealJA105

The Mustangs do sound better, but it's so laughable when that's how they win a head to head after they lost every performance metric.
I think they are taking the PP2s fastest lap, so the first hot lap. I also didn't realize, until this article, that the PP2 has more tire than the 350. Like why wouldn't Ford put the 305s on the "updated" 350 now????????

The put wider tires on the PP2 was because it was only the chance it had of getting close to the SSLE, and then didn't properly equip it with coolers. It was a band-aid fix.

remember the 5th gen ZL1 vs GT500. GT500 won almost every metric in every test yet lost every comparison. Subjectivity is needed in these reviews otherwise why even bother doing them. They can't be done on just numbers.

Originally Posted by TheRealJA105

As others have said, they've done it before. Ford is scared and covering their ass.

Yep, but I doubt we'll see the real comparison we all want because of Ford not allowing it.

Yeah it's not looking good for the FoMoCo right now. Again I will just point out though, the MT review was a mashup of two different reviews. MT has 3 reviews of the GT500, with all of the data coming from 1 test. It's like they are just fluffing out articles to fill pages and clicks C&D just had their initial review and R&T had nothing since the vegas event.....do they not have a test car yet or one in their fleet like WTF Ford.

Originally Posted by TheRealJA105

You are kind of condescending on the PP2 vs GT350 metrics and 1LE vs ZL1 metrics, but also have a great point that the 1LE is lighter so it should be better at those metrics. I do think the PP2 only wins those because of the tires though. Tires are the biggest performance aspect on all of these cars and alot of people do not understand that.
Yeah I just love it when the Mustang fanbois are losing at all performance conversations so they bring up sales. We aren't debating sales here.
Agree on the multiple years of Ford fumbles and failures.


So spot on that it's still slow, unreliable, and even more expensive.

Glad I wasn't the only one that saw it. Yes the 1LE is lighter, but as the article pointed out the tires provided more grip for the PP2. wider tires = more grip, more grip = better braking, more grip = better lateral G.

I haven't turned to sales yet so I think I am still in some good graces haha

Originally Posted by Fraxum

Track oriented builds are alway slower in the 1/4 than more of a street orientation as weight is added to get there. But the GT350 sounds like a good 1/4 match up for M6 non 1LE SSes, or even M6 LT1s. I dont understand why M6 GT coyotes aren't faster. Or are the latest ones in that same range?

Thank you.

I would guess for the M6 Coyote it has to be something with gearing in the MT-82 and overall gear ratio that lack of low end can't make up for. the A10 is pretty aggressively geared can make up for that lack of low end. But not 100% on that.

[TheRealJA105]

Originally Posted by shaffe

The put wider tires on the PP2 was because it was only the chance it had of getting close to the SSLE, and then didn't properly equip it with coolers. It was a band-aid fix.

remember the 5th gen ZL1 vs GT500. GT500 won almost every metric in every test yet lost every comparison. Subjectivity is needed in these reviews otherwise why even bother doing them. They can't be done on just numbers.

Yeah it's not looking good for the FoMoCo right now. Again I will just point out though, the MT review was a mashup of two different reviews. MT has 3 reviews of the GT500, with all of the data coming from 1 test. It's like they are just fluffing out articles to fill pages and clicks C&D just had their initial review and R&T had nothing since the vegas event.....do they not have a test car yet or one in their fleet like WTF Ford.

Glad I wasn't the only one that saw it. Yes the 1LE is lighter, but as the article pointed out the tires provided more grip for the PP2. wider tires = more grip, more grip = better braking, more grip = better lateral G.

I haven't turned to sales yet so I think I am still in some good graces haha

I know Ford put the Cup 2s on the PP2 to make it compete with the SS1LE for 1 lap, but I just don't understand why they don't run 305 square on the GT350 now too?

I thought 5th Gen ZL1 vs GT500 the 500 lost at anything except acceleration that they had to do more than once. First 100-0 GT 500 win second 100-0 ZL1 win and the most important thing after 1 lap on the road course the 500 kept losing more and more time to the ZL1. Not positive though, I went from C5Z to Hellcat to Camaro6. I didn't like the 5th Gen Camaros at all.

The mags and websites are undeniably just fluffing out articles and comparisons for clicks and views, then we complain and they will just continue doing it and still never give us the comparison that SHOULD be done and the one we all want.

We'll know you're on your last leg when you turn to the sales thing haha.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by shaffe

I would guess for the M6 Coyote it has to be something with gearing in the MT-82 and overall gear ratio that lack of low end can't make up for. the A10 is pretty aggressively geared can make up for that lack of low end. But not 100% on that.

Part of the problem is the gearing. The Gen 2 MT-82s were geared so short you had to shift to 3rd to hit 60 and then shift to 5th right before the 1/4 mile mark and lose time or stay in 4th and lose time.

The 3rd Gen MT-82 went the opposite way where I think the gearing is too tall. Also the transmission is notoriously known for high rpm lockouts and the body mounted shifters move around. Honestly the entire MT-82 just needs to be scrapped.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by TheRealJA105

I know Ford put the Cup 2s on the PP2 to make it compete with the SS1LE for 1 lap, but I just don't understand why they don't run 305 square on the GT350 now too?

I thought 5th Gen ZL1 vs GT500 the 500 lost at anything except acceleration that they had to do more than once. First 100-0 GT 500 win second 100-0 ZL1 win and the most important thing after 1 lap on the road course the 500 kept losing more and more time to the ZL1. Not positive though, I went from C5Z to Hellcat to Camaro6. I didn't like the 5th Gen Camaros at all.

The mags and websites are undeniably just fluffing out articles and comparisons for clicks and views, then we complain and they will just continue doing it and still never give us the comparison that SHOULD be done and the one we all want.

We'll know you're on your last leg when you turn to the sales thing haha.

The only reasons I can think of for them not putting 305's up front on the 350 are that it could upset the balance, which was mentioned as one of the reasons it still beat the PP2. The other reason I can think of is that it would close the gap on the R, and Ford doesnt want that considering the price of the R.

I am sure M6G would say, if you want 305's buy the R.