[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by Bwrin

Thanks for the explanation!

A couple questions:

1. You said to make sure you use a quality full synthetic. I assume following GM’s requirement of dexos1 gen2 or dexos2 is what you should use. Are full synthetics that don’t meet these requirements a bad idea? I’ve read that calcium and sodium are contributors to the issue.

2. If I don’t have oil consumption issues and it’s not misfiring, that means my engine hasn’t been harmed from it? I’ve been paranoid wondering if LSPI has occurred and maybe a rod has been bent or the ring lands have been damaged or compromised. The reason I’m concerned is because I’ve been using PUP 0w-40 for the past 8k miles, thinking it was dexos approved. I’ve since changed to Mobil 1 ESP 0w-40, but worried I may have caused damage in some way.

I’ve always used 93 and don’t recall ever lugging the engine.

Dexos2 probably requires a low volatility base stock so less oil vapor to get into the intake, but pre-'19 cars all came with Dexos1 5w30 so I wouldn't worry much about using the non-Dexos oil... but don't volunteer that info to the dealer!

LT1 is definitely an issue with LSPI if you add a supercharger, if the tune is kept stock I would just follow the manual, not add a catch can and enjoy your warranty. If you add a supercharger than do whatever your tuner recommends.

[Bwrin]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

Dexos2 probably requires a low volatility base stock so less oil vapor to get into the intake, but pre-'19 cars all came with Dexos1 5w30 so I wouldn't worry much about using the non-Dexos oil... but don't volunteer that info to the dealer!

LT1 is definitely an issue with LSPI if you add a supercharger, if the tune is kept stock I would just follow the manual, not add a catch can and enjoy your warranty. If you add a supercharger than do whatever your tuner recommends.

So, dexos1 gen2 (with the main change being LSPI prevention) was released in September 2017. That would mean that prior to that (‘16 and ‘17 model years), the LT1 and other Camaro power plants were using dexos1 gen1 that didn’t address LSPI. I don’t recall seeing anyone post about issues with their LT1 prior to dexos1 gen2, so I assume my car is fine.

And no mods planned for me. I added an axle back exhaust, but that’s all I will ever do. Maybe a cold air intake. It’s always been my dream to get a V8, and with electric vehicles becoming more common, I wanted to make sure I had the experience. I plan on keeping this car as long as possible. I love it!

Also, why no catch can? The idea makes sense, I think, but I can’t never get a straight answer. Some almost demand you get one, some say it’s a terrible idea.

[95 imp]

Everyone has an opinion. My thoughts are that if you're a car guy, you understand what the catch can does and will take the time to install/maintain it. There are those who feel the factory did a good enough job, or do not want to be bothered with the extra maintenance, or possible warranty issues, and leave the stock one in. Which way you go is up to you.

I, personally, would go aftermarket on this one. It's cheap insurance IF you are willing to do the maintenance. If you don't you will get a slug of oil/gas/water in your intake.

[Bwrin]

Originally Posted by 95 imp

Everyone has an opinion. My thoughts are that if you're a car guy, you understand what the catch can does and will take the time to install/maintain it. There are those who feel the factory did a good enough job, or do not want to be bothered with the extra maintenance, or possible warranty issues, and leave the stock one in. Which way you go is up to you.

I, personally, would go aftermarket on this one. It's cheap insurance IF you are willing to do the maintenance. If you don't you will get a slug of oil/gas/water in your intake.

Do you have a recommendation on one to use if I decided to go that route?

[MatthewAMEL]

Originally Posted by Bwrin

Do you have a recommendation on one to use if I decided to go that route?

Mighty Mouse or Mishimoto.


I'd steer clear of Elite Engineering.

[6spdhyperblue]

What’s up with elites can?

I think jlt has the oem fittings which is nice

[Mountain]

Funny as I just started doing a bunch of research on this after some information I gathered from PRI.

Findings are showing a strong correlation of LSPI events to the Calcium found in engine oils. The Calcium is part of detergent/dispersant packages typically found in engine oil.

If you look into the Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30, Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 and Mobil 1 ESP 0W-40, and other Dexos2 approved oils you will see low Calcium (Ca) levels.

Apparently, there is also a slight link to Sodium as well, but most oils have pretty low amounts of Sodium.

If you actually look into the Dexos criteria, Dexos1 isn't really that stringent (compared to some other OEM specs). Dexos1 Gen 2 is the most for GM, more than Dexos 2. With that in mind, Dexos1 Gen2 calls for LSPI testing, but Dexos2 does not. Dexos1 Gen2 is a fairly recent addition from what it seems.

The Mercedes Benz specifications, MB 229.5 and up have been calling for LSPI testing and seems to be a significantly more stringent specification. In addition, MB has held oil to certain, specific Ca levels starting with MB 229.1.

Ford has a LSPI test for oil, but I haven't been able to find too much information on it.

This is my thought:
~For a street LT1 (or other high-compression/pressure (FI) DI only engines), look for an oil with Dexos and/or MB 229.5 (or above) approval, VW 502.00 (or 504.00 or 505.00) approval and a good TBN as a minimum.
~For a tracked LT1 (or other high-compression/pressure (FI) DI only engines), look for an oil with Dexos and/or MB 229.5 (or above) approval, Porsche A40 approval and a NOACK under 10%.

Dexos/MB holds oil to stringent general performance and wear, along with LSPI testing. VW holds oil to high standards for daily street use. The Porsche approval holds oil to track tested usage.

[Bwrin]

Originally Posted by Mountain

Funny as I just started doing a bunch of research on this after some information I gathered from PRI.

Findings are showing a strong correlation of LSPI events to the Calcium found in engine oils. The Calcium is part of detergent/dispersant packages typically found in engine oil.

If you look into the Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30, Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 and Mobil 1 ESP 0W-40, and other Dexos2 approved oils you will see low Calcium (Ca) levels.

Apparently, there is also a slight link to Sodium as well, but most oils have pretty low amounts of Sodium.

If you actually look into the Dexos criteria, Dexos1 isn't really that stringent (compared to some other OEM specs). Dexos1 Gen 2 is the most for GM, more than Dexos 2. With that in mind, Dexos1 Gen2 calls for LSPI testing, but Dexos2 does not. Dexos1 Gen2 is a fairly recent addition from what it seems.

The Mercedes Benz specifications, MB 229.5 and up have been calling for LSPI testing and seems to be a significantly more stringent specification. In addition, MB has held oil to certain, specific Ca levels starting with MB 229.1.

Ford has a LSPI test for oil, but I haven't been able to find too much information on it.

This is my thought:
~For a street LT1 (or other high-compression/pressure (FI) DI only engines), look for an oil with Dexos and/or MB 229.5 (or above) approval, VW 502.00 (or 504.00 or 505.00) approval and a good TBN as a minimum.
~For a tracked LT1 (or other high-compression/pressure (FI) DI only engines), look for an oil with Dexos and/or MB 229.5 (or above) approval, Porsche A40 approval and a NOACK under 10%.

Dexos/MB holds oil to stringent general performance and wear, along with LSPI testing. VW holds oil to high standards for daily street use. The Porsche approval holds oil to track tested usage.

That’s interesting. I didn’t realize that LSPI wasn’t addressed with Dexos2. I looked in my manual, and sure enough, the 2.0 turbo and the V6 call for dexos1 gen2, the LT1 calls for Dexos2. Does a dexos1 gen2 0w-40 just not exist?

That kind of puts me at ease though. If LSPI isn’t addressed with Dexos2, I assume it’s not much of a concern with the LT1. At least that’s what I’m gathering.

[Bwrin]

Originally Posted by MatthewAMEL

Mighty Mouse or Mishimoto.


I'd steer clear of Elite Engineering.

Bad experience with Elite Engineering?

[ssmofo]

Originally Posted by Elite Engineering

Lets share some info as LSPI is still a relatively unknown issue to most. Some will remember we started to talk about this, how it occurs, and how to avoid it and more. We started studying it in depth in 2010 with the 2.0T engines and ecoboost engines were having alarming amount of failures attributed to it and partial hydrolock due to poorly designed PCV systems.


It affects ALL GDI engines, but forced induction engines experience a far higher incidence. So lets examine what it is and what it does:


GDI engine introduce the fuel directly into the combustion chamber milliseconds before spark ignition. This is why a 11.5:1 compression ratio engine can run safely (not efficiently, but safely) on 87 octane. Pr-ignition is the result of the air/fuel mixture igniting prematurely from a glowing piece of carbon and/or excessive heat. So by not introducing fuel until the very last moments, most is eliminated so lower octane fuels can be used.


What LSPI (Low Speed Pre Ignition) is is when raw fuel is pushed past and behind the compression ring and mixes with oil vapors from a synthetic blend or a conventional oil. This mixture is extremely unstable and if ignited, results in a violent explosion that will either break the top ringland, which may stay in place and result in random misfires and or oil consumption, or in extreme cases breaks the bottom of the piston off completely. Here are some examples:


This shows when the side of the piston breaks:


And this shows if the land breaks but stays in place. Note, your dealer will only do a compression test and it may pass that, a leak down test is needed to accurately diagnose this.


Below shows this with the ringland break visible.




As a forced induction engine applies even more pressure, this becomes more common with forced induction, but happens to ALL GDI engines if conditions are right.


How do you prevent this? First, ONLY use a quality full synthetic engine oil. I like Amsoil 5w50 Signature Series for all GDI engines as this raw fuel dilutes your already thin oils. Amsoil, M1, and a few of the other big names in Synthetics have reformulated their oil to render this mix less explosive, but does not totally eliminate it.


Our E2-X dual valve catchcan system prevents this as well as it provides full time flushing and evacuation of these vapors so it can't occur if the vapors are removed as soon as the enter.


ALWAYS use 93 octane (or 91 if you live in California) as it is far less prone to per-ignition, and you will enjoy the slight improvement in MPG and power.


Those that have been members for the duration should remember us sharing this and the intake valve coking years ago on Camaro5 with the V6's experiencing this (and several attacked us claiming this was false, and even GM came around and finally admitted the problems they first denied were now being addressed).


So again, thee are NOT the engines of the past that could be neglected and last several hundred thousand miles, and sure some get lucky, but steps must be taken if you want a good long life out of your GDI engine. And we can help.


Questions? Just ask. Were here to help.

Nice friggen write up, reminds me of an LS1 Tech stickey.

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by Bwrin

That’s interesting. I didn’t realize that LSPI wasn’t addressed with Dexos2. I looked in my manual, and sure enough, the 2.0 turbo and the V6 call for dexos1 gen2, the LT1 calls for Dexos2. Does a dexos1 gen2 0w-40 just not exist?

That kind of puts me at ease though. If LSPI isn’t addressed with Dexos2, I assume it’s not much of a concern with the LT1. At least that’s what I’m gathering.

As far as the information provided openly within the industry, it is only in the criteria for Dexos1 Gen2.

Calcium (Ca) is a propagator to LSPI. Slightly high amounts of Sodium (S) make the problem worse. ZDDP/Phosphate (P) helps reduce the issue of LSPI, but a high content of ZDDP is bad for converters. It seems increased Molybdenum (Mo) is the other element that can help reduce LSPI.

It's very common to see 1,500-3,000ppm of Ca in most engine oils, with most being 2,000-3,000ppm. As far as S, it's common to see 1-15ppm. ZDDP/P is regulated with newer oils to 700-900ppm (max) depending up API grade and Mo can be 0-900ppm.

http://www.engineprofessional.com/ar...kytSFg68ziof44
This article seems to state Dexos aims to reduce Ca and S, but from what I've seen, there are no stated criteria limits, only stating that an oil has to submit levels to GM.

http://www.engineprofessional.com/EP...ndex.html#p=26
More recent article with similar information.

http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/...9#/ad7eebf9/40
Fairly detailed article on the subject.

[Bwrin]

Originally Posted by Mountain

As far as the information provided openly within the industry, it is only in the criteria for Dexos1 Gen2.

Calcium (Ca) is a propagator to LSPI. Slightly high amounts of Sodium (S) make the problem worse. ZDDP/Phosphate (P) helps reduce the issue of LSPI, but a high content of ZDDP is bad for converters. It seems increased Molybdenum (Mo) is the other element that can help reduce LSPI.

It's very common to see 1,500-3,000ppm of Ca in most engine oils, with most being 2,000-3,000ppm. As far as S, it's common to see 1-15ppm. ZDDP/P is regulated with newer oils to 700-900ppm (max) depending up API grade and Mo can be 0-900ppm.

http://www.engineprofessional.com/ar...kytSFg68ziof44
This article seems to state Dexos aims to reduce Ca and S, but from what I've seen, there are no stated criteria limits, only stating that an oil has to submit levels to GM.

http://www.engineprofessional.com/EP...ndex.html#p=26
More recent article with similar information.

http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/...9#/ad7eebf9/40
Fairly detailed article on the subject.

Thanks for the info and links. Those articles specifically call out the LT1, but what I don’t understand is, why would GM specify dexos2 for my 2019 if dexos2’s main objective seems to be emissions related, but not LSPI (according to public records like you mentioned)? To me it seems that dexos1 gen2 was created to combat LSPI, dexos2 is more for emissions?

But apparently the Mobil 1 ESP 0w-40 is low calcium anyway, while being dexos2. Does SAPS level have anything to do with calcium content?

[95 imp]

Originally Posted by Bwrin

Do you have a recommendation on one to use if I decided to go that route?

The "excellent function" can seems to be the best bet. It has the stuff the name brands do, but not the price.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-Port-Oil-...dbee9a651521db

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by Bwrin

Thanks for the info and links. Those articles specifically call out the LT1, but what I don’t understand is, why would GM specify dexos2 for my 2019 if dexos2’s main objective seems to be emissions related, but not LSPI (according to public records like you mentioned)? To me it seems that dexos1 gen2 was created to combat LSPI, dexos2 is more for emissions?

But apparently the Mobil 1 ESP 0w-40 is low calcium anyway, while being dexos2. Does SAPS level have anything to do with calcium content?

The point of Dexos is for GM to better qualify oils for real world performance. Dexos isn't pointless, just it isn't as stringent as some of the other OEM standards (but it seems it's getting there). API/ILSAC standards are more general and for emissions - think of any of the OEM standards as qualifiers for application usage.

GM typically uses Dexos1 for lighter weight oils - more of the "street" oils, so 30-weight and below (high volume usage). For the heavier oils, GM uses Dexos2, so 40-weight and above; those oils are typically used for diesel and heavy duty/commercial applications (lower volume usage). With Dexos2, GM is just basically saying, "Hey, for track use, in order to be 100% sure you are covered by warranty if anything were to happen to your engine, use a Dexos2 oil; oils that meet Dexos2 meet our performance standards and what we've validated our vehicles to." The thing you need to remember is that, just because an oil isn't marked for Dexos2, it doesn't necessarily mean it wont align or work better, but you have to be educated for the deviation (i.e. knowing something like DI engines have LSPI concerns related to oil).