[396ssrat]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

The road-race side to ponycars has always been undervalued. For a number of reasons. Road racing is not as brutal, it's not as much of a spectacle to watch, you usually can't see the entire track, races aren't over in just a few seconds, and there is more strategy and tactics involved (think in terms of attention span for those who are not road-racing enthusiasts already).

Road-race credibility actually was there pretty much from then beginning, through SCCA club racing and Trans-Am . . . Z/28, GT350, Boss 302, and eventually including Pontiac's Trans Am, AAR Cuda, Challenger T/A and AMC's Javelin. But it wasn't nearly as visible. Keep in mind that technologies important to road racing (tires, suspensions, brakes) weren't exactly advanced back then. 0.7 lateral-g back then was as impressive as 1.0x is today. Maybe more so.


Norm

In '85 the Iroc Z was impressive as heck and quite capable on a corner carving venue for it's time but it was sorely underpowered. Present day Camaro is an entirely different vehicle but the entry fee isn't acceptable to the majority of our youth as were the Muscle Cars of yesterday. They were
turds in hindsight but were awesome in the mid 60's. Either vehicle is unsafe to utilize to it's highest capability today on any street and few actually track their car. Just a damned shame Chevrolet doesn't get it when it comes to styling a car which sell's. That is apparent by the numbers of the Challenger's
that do sell, even with their dinosaur body style.
I think Chevrolet needs to let some heads roll from the top down. I have a strong suspicion that people are going to be force fed electric vehicles, like them or not.

[396ssrat]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

I have my doubts that the power and torque numbers and the 0-60 times being bandied about for EVs today hold any real meaning for buyers who don't already hold some enthusiasm for cars in general.


Norm

Car's don't hold the same value to the majority of our youth as they once did.

[MrChrisLS3]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

I have my doubts that the power and torque numbers and the 0-60 times being bandied about for EVs today hold any real meaning for buyers who don't already hold some enthusiasm for cars in general.


Norm

Well, yeah, I believe you're right about that. However, approaching from the performance aspect does a couple of things;

First, it gets attention. For example, if GM had designed and marketed the Volt like Tesla has done with their product, GM might be holding all the cards in the EV world instead of just talking about it. The general public took the Volt as another conceptual novelty, and more or less considered no more than an overpriced Malibu. Until Tesla, the EV was nothing more than a science project.

Second, it is, as mentioned trickle down technology. With the attention, comes interest, with interest comes money for more research and development. So, while the mainstream commuter population may not be too concerned with how fast it goes, they are concerned if it will comfortably and reliably get them to work on time. The thought then is, if the technology is good enough for a performance car, it surely must be able to handle my daily commute without issue. It's the Tesla science project that is mainstreaming the idea of the EV.

Although I still believe that the EV is a stop gap to the problem it's attempting to solve. It's a good plan, but is it really the best plan?

[RagingHawk]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

I have my doubts that the power and torque numbers and the 0-60 times being bandied about for EVs today hold any real meaning for buyers who don't already hold some enthusiasm for cars in general.


Norm

Agree with this , see here Martin.

[RagingHawk]

Originally Posted by 396ssrat

Car's don't hold the same value to the majority of our youth as they once did.

It's not a youth thing, more like an everyone alive today thing. Most people don't question much if anything. Hardly any rebels out there anymore or people who stand up for a set of beliefs. They'll just roll with the new trends.

[RagingHawk]

Did any of you see Doug Demuro's new video on the Porsche Taycan? He was driving for about 4 minutes and accelerated a few times within that time span during which 20 miles of range were used up.

So if you go on a 20 minute spin with some spirited driving you will lose 100 miles of range.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by internationlriders

I'm a technology guy so I have zero qualms about an electric Camaro, I have a v8 already so I'm good to go. I could even see myself buying a performance hybrid sports car. Think Mclaren P1, Porsche 918, etc. but that tech trickling down into the affordable segment.

I'm generally OK with technology doing the things I cannot keep up with. Not OK with technology being inserted into what I can keep up with or taking any of my involvement out of the process. Driving enjoyment comes more from knowing that you can do your part, less from knowing that your car has X amount of performance capability.

5. This has been discussed but I want to reiterate it. Electric cars are fun but different way, and electric cars will be able to grip the corners too and are already quicker around a track although less composed and here is a prime example from Top Gear:

Less composed
"There's very clever algorithms at work here. It knows . . ."
"Lots of clever things going on"

I'm afraid that makes it not my kind of car. Like being demoted to co-pilot status to an electronic pilot who refuses to give up all of the reins even in situations that are potentially outside its comprehension.

7. I don't understand the hate on the quick 0-60 or 1/4 mile times that electric cars get, is it because ego-maniacs are butt hurt that they spent so much money on their Hellcat and yet in real street racing scenarios get beat almost every time by the little Model 3?

Butt hurt probably is a big part of what your buddies are feeling. I suppose it might have been a roughly similar situation back when it was SBC vs BBC, but at least then you could better understand why the BBC was making more power and torque than the SBC and from there why the results were what they were.

Sound is part of it. It's the feedback you expect will change in accordance with how hard you're driving, and the whine of an electric motor does not convey this nearly as well as ICE intake and exhaust sounds do.

With an EV, acceleration performance is likely to be even more under computer control. I'm afraid that's not exactly the same thing as "driving", where it's on the driver to have the necessary skills and judgement.

I'm hearing some of my buddies with Hellcats even say they won't acknowlege Teslas, that doesn't make them not exist!

Part of the problem is that there's no easy way to compare such widely differing powertrains. Equivalency formulas don't even do a very good job of comparing ICEs that are NA vs with any of the various forms of forced induction.

My final rant is that we can either get with the time or stay stuck in the past, whether the future is actually a good place or not is a whole different topic.

How much of the baby are you willing to throw out with the bath water? Doesn't it ultimately come down to that?


Norm

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by 396ssrat

In '85 the Iroc Z was impressive as heck and quite capable on a corner carving venue for it's time but it was sorely underpowered.

I'm not surprised that the 3rd gens get mentioned in connection with corner-carving. I remember being impressed with them from the beginning, particularly in Z28 trim. I'd rate the 3rd gen's as Chevy's first serious move toward introducing handling to a wider audience than Corvette buyers.

Just a damned shame Chevrolet doesn't get it when it comes to styling a car which sell's. That is apparent by the numbers of the Challenger's that do sell, even with their dinosaur body style.

I wouldn't call it "dinosaur style" any more than I'd apply the same term to Porsche's 911. Some styles just have better staying power across the years than others. They just 'work'. Time will tell if the Challenger's styling ever meets a "timeless" standard.

FWIW, I'd have bought a 1970 AAR Cuda back in the day if the salesman at the then-local Plymouth dealership had taken me seriously enough on the matter of transmission choice (he either didn't care or thought he could get the 23 y/o me to change my mind . . . he thought wrong).

I think Chevrolet needs to let some heads roll from the top down. I have a strong suspicion that people are going to be force fed electric vehicles, like them or not.

I'll give Mary the benefit of the doubt for now, based on her opinion of Ford's Mustang Mach E cluster*.


Norm

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by MrChrisLS3

Well, yeah, I believe you're right about that. However, approaching from the performance aspect does a couple of things;

First, it gets attention. For example, if GM had designed and marketed the Volt like Tesla has done with their product, GM might be holding all the cards in the EV world instead of just talking about it. The general public took the Volt as another conceptual novelty, and more or less considered no more than an overpriced Malibu. Until Tesla, the EV was nothing more than a science project.

Perhaps that says more about a company driven by a strong-willed individual rather than by a committee. I think he's more like Enzo Ferrari, Ferruccio Lamborghini, and Ferdinand Porsche. Henry Ford but not Henry II (I don't think the Deuce ever did fit that mold).

Second, it is, as mentioned trickle down technology. With the attention, comes interest, with interest comes money for more research and development. So, while the mainstream commuter population may not be too concerned with how fast it goes, they are concerned if it will comfortably and reliably get them to work on time. The thought then is, if the technology is good enough for a performance car, it surely must be able to handle my daily commute without issue. It's the Tesla science project that is mainstreaming the idea of the EV.

I see what you're saying. Not sure that Tesla needed to go all the way to 'ludicrous mode', though. Then again, Elon isn't above much when it come to promotion. Have you seen the Engineering Explained dissection of the AWD Tesla pickup vs the RWD-only F150 video?

Although I still believe that the EV is a stop gap to the problem it's attempting to solve. It's a good plan, but is it really the best plan?

Good question. I would hope that the various car companies would continue to build a variety of ICE-powered cars even if ICE market share was to drop below 5%.


Norm

[Petrol Head]

Just remember: big oil still runs the world. If at any moment they start to feel seriously threatened they have enough politicians and CEOs of giant corporations in their back pocket to do whatever they want about it.

Unless BP or Exxon start to shift their focus on mining copper to produce the windings in electric motors or battery cells, they still own the car world selling dinosaur DNA. And companies like that don’t go out of business easily, quickly, or quietly.

Think about this: both companies experienced massive, large scale, severely damaging accidents due to their own employees incompetence over the last 30 years that resulted in them loosing billions, massive lawsuits, and total embarrassment in the public eye, yet today they’re still going without a hiccup. Those events would have wiped out most companies.

And the electric car is gonna kill the internal combustion engine???

[90503]

These batteries gotta go into something...maybe Camaros....?

https://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/...05-lgchem.html

[396ssrat]

"I'm not surprised that the 3rd gens get mentioned in connection with corner-carving. I remember being impressed with them from the beginning, particularly in Z28 trim. I'd rate the 3rd gen's as Chevy's first serious move toward introducing handling to a wider audience than Corvette buyers".

The 3rd Gen Z28 was ok but was not as capable as the Iroc-z however, it was certainly an attempt at better handling, primarily due to the anemic 305 ci 215hp with the TPI option.

Yes, the Corvette was still better.

[Gunkk]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

Just remember: big oil still runs the world. If at any moment they start to feel seriously threatened they have enough politicians and CEOs of giant corporations in their back pocket to do whatever they want about it.

Unless BP or Exxon start to shift their focus on mining copper to produce the windings in electric motors or battery cells, they still own the car world selling dinosaur DNA. And companies like that don’t go out of business easily, quickly, or quietly.

Think about this: both companies experienced massive, large scale, severely damaging accidents due to their own employees incompetence over the last 30 years that resulted in them loosing billions, massive lawsuits, and total embarrassment in the public eye, yet today they’re still going without a hiccup. Those events would have wiped out most companies.

And the electric car is gonna kill the internal combustion engine???

+1.

BEV won't kill ICE until the electric energy storage density goes up by 5x to 10x. That will be at least 2 generations from now (50-100 years). They have to overcome the kWh/kg penalty as well as power transmission penalty. Liquid hydrocarbons are much less expensive to transmit long distances than electricity (last 50 miles not as much, but net net energy distribution still favors liquid hydrocarbons).

Those of us who live in hurricane evacuation zones will not go all BEV until we can get 1000mi on a charge. And I don't really ever see any MFR building a 1000mi car in my lifetime or my kids lifetime for obvious economic reasons. There aren't enough of us in FL to make it pay commercially for them to do so. Super Duty trucks perhaps, but they will be cost prohibitive for most.

Hybrids like the Volt or Prius can go 1000mi with a pair of 5gal jerry cans in the trunk. So I and a healthy share of the other 21+ million folks in FL will continue to own at least one partially-ICE car we can evacuate with when the time comes. But I don't think hybrids really have much more than 30 years left in them due to cost/complexity vs. all BEV.

Time will tell and I won't care by then

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Gunkk

+1.

BEV won't kill ICE until the electric energy storage density goes up by 5x to 10x. That will be at least 2 generations from now (50-100 years). They have to overcome the kWh/kg penalty as well as power transmission penalty. Liquid hydrocarbons are much less expensive to transmit long distances than electricity (last 50 miles not as much, but net net energy distribution still favors liquid hydrocarbons).

Those of us who live in hurricane evacuation zones will not go all BEV until we can get 1000mi on a charge. And I don't really ever see any MFR building a 1000mi car in my lifetime or my kids lifetime for obvious economic reasons. There aren't enough of us in FL to make it pay commercially for them to do so. Super Duty trucks perhaps, but they will be cost prohibitive for most.

Hybrids like the Volt or Prius can go 1000mi with a pair of 5gal jerry cans in the trunk. So I and a healthy share of the other 21+ million folks in FL will continue to own at least one partially-ICE car we can evacuate with when the time comes. But I don't think hybrids really have much more than 30 years left in them due to cost/complexity vs. all BEV.

Time will tell and I won't care by then

Sorry but just no. It’s simply range, recharge time and cost. Suggesting my LaCrosse with 350 mile range is great but an EV with a 350 mile range won’t work? No it’s simply time to recharge. No car in a Florida has a 1000 mile range. What you need to get to Michigan??? to be safe?