[Gunkk]

Originally Posted by Number 3

They tend to rate and review cars from the perspective of non car people.

Hammered Cadillac for CUE, which while not awesome, was not horrible either.

Even Tesla was beaten up a bit for the auto door handles on the Model S.

Most of heir evaluations are about things many owners or enthusiasts who buy the car don’t care much about.

And a slong as you know where the data comes from and it’s limitations, it can be of value.

The only issue is do you love your Camaro and would you buy another one?

I would say for some cars going on the web to sites like Camaro6 and doing some research might be better than CR. But there aren’t many websites for my LaCrosse lol.

And for that the CR Owner Satisfaction rating is very telling: 5/5.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Gunkk

And for that the CR Owner Satisfaction rating is very telling: 5/5.

Case closed!

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Case closed!

And papers filed. The Camaro is no Camry. We can thank the stars for that. Every single version/year of the current generation is fun to drive and a great value for the performance it gives, and looks good doing it. But it's not perfect. However if things go bad GM stands behind these cars, I can attest to that.

[ember1205]

Originally Posted by TheDocKlopek

This came up in my Google cards since ya know, Google always watching what I look at and talk about *cough*.

Anyway, I have a hard time believing this article and wanted to see what all of you think? I had a 2016 2SS, for about 10 months and 15k miles. Lost it to hurricane Harvey, ugh. Still looking for a replacement 2 years later. Anyway, I never had a single problem and was not exactly easy on the car.

https://www.carscoops.com/2019/11/co...rs-in-america/

That's flagrant bull$h!t. Their crystal ball doesn't work any better than mine does. "Predicted reliability" and "Predicted customer satisfaction" are bogus terms that they made up for the purposes of putting marketing spin against brands / products that don't advertise with them. And don't buy their corporate line of garbage about how they don't take advertising into account...

They are making a -prediction- based on certain very short-term statistical data points that they collected. That's useless. You simply don't know how a particular vehicle will fare over time until that time has passed! And you've collected data on THOUSANDS of vehicles that have gone that length of time. Even then, you need to look for trends and not just count incidents of "any issue" as a plus one in the problems column.

Originally Posted by Emoto

I think Consumer Reports has agendas and biases. I don't trust them at all.

They absolutely do, and they refuse to admit it.

Originally Posted by protovack

Didn't see any specific information about how they collected the reliability data. I don't really trust Consumer reports anyway. I'd love to see the "data" here.

There is no data. That's the problem. You can't have five people tell you that something was not right with their car within 100 miles and label the entire make "junk". It doesn't work that way.

Consumer Reports is not data-driven. Period. They are personal opinion-based only, and they only provide more than a cursory mention of those products that they purchase themselves. So, if they feel that a product isn't worth reviewing, regardless of actual data, it's already deemed sub-par and they won't go any further with it.

CR is laughable.

[cellsafemode]

to be fair, even though they dont document their "reports" like a scientific study ought to ... they probably do have data feeds from one or more data sources for repair work and they probably base some of the "reliability" info on opt-in surveys that oem's tend to offer when you purchase new cars.

And the conflicting data their own site reports isn't unexpected either. There are many cases where people are happy with substandard garbage. I'm sure everyone listens to streaming music and is good with that but my reliability report would show that it's been triple re-encoded in different garbage (for quality) codecs and receives a score of 1 out of 5 while flac files receive a 5/5 but nobody knows what that is and so isn't even on the list for consumer satisfaction. Samsung is a brand lots of people like and they bricked everyone's blue ray players last week.

So i can totally see a 5/5 self scoring number existing while something is total garbage by the data.

Not that the camaro is unreliable. I've had no problem with mine since owning it in feb 2016. Though, anytime you have a car that's designed to exist at it's physical limits being sold to a userbase that is going to drive it at it's limits, you're going to get failures more frequently than a car that's designed to exist near the bottom or middle of it's limits.

So if the data actually did show higher than avg failures for the number of cars sold, that's not necessarily a bad thing. That could just mean that camaro drivers like to have fun and the camaro screams like a dirty porn star in their ears to go faster - harder.

[ember1205]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

to be fair, even though they dont document their "reports" like a scientific study ought to ... they probably do have data feeds from one or more data sources for repair work and they probably base some of the "reliability" info on opt-in surveys that oem's tend to offer when you purchase new cars.

And the conflicting data their own site reports isn't unexpected either. There are many cases where people are happy with substandard garbage. I'm sure everyone listens to streaming music and is good with that but my reliability report would show that it's been triple re-encoded in different garbage (for quality) codecs and receives a score of 1 out of 5 while flac files receive a 5/5 but nobody knows what that is and so isn't even on the list for consumer satisfaction. Samsung is a brand lots of people like and they bricked everyone's blue ray players last week.

So i can totally see a 5/5 self scoring number existing while something is total garbage by the data.

Not that the camaro is unreliable. I've had no problem with mine since owning it in feb 2016. Though, anytime you have a car that's designed to exist at it's physical limits being sold to a userbase that is going to drive it at it's limits, you're going to get failures more frequently than a car that's designed to exist near the bottom or middle of it's limits.

So if the data actually did show higher than avg failures for the number of cars sold, that's not necessarily a bad thing. That could just mean that camaro drivers like to have fun and the camaro screams like a dirty porn star in their ears to go faster - harder.

tl;dr

There 'reports' are not fact or data driven. They are based on opinions and feelings and do not cover enough spread to be useful.

[FarmerFran]

Originally Posted by plus1zero

After talking to numerous Dodge owners and knowing many close friends that have them, I don't see how anyone could continue to buy them. They always seem to have issues. The only thing that I never hear anything about is the cummins engines because, well, they last forever.

I have had a bunch of FCA products, none ever gave me a problem. My JGC Overland was awesome, 3 RAMs, hell even my caliber was solid until the day I traded it.

[cellsafemode]

and these totally contradictory anecdotal statements means that consumer reports can have the reports that they do and be totally data driven, unless you worked there and know they dont have data feeds for what they use ...you simply can't make a statement that discounts them as opinion when people are telling you completely contradictory statements about a brand/make that's driven by data. It's incomplete data but it's still all the data those people have.

Things that run contrary to your own experience doesn't discount them being true or data driven. There are many ways both things can exist as true at the time time. It would help if we had a picture of where the evidence comes from in all cases, but we can do some easy educated guesses.

I am willing to bet there is a general bias that all high performance vehicles have a lower "reliability" rating than cars that are much less powerful. And we can chaulk that up to two factors, 1. The car is built to the physical limits of more items in the car. 2. The kind of driver of those cars pushes them to those limits more frequently.

It's probably best to only compare reliability within the class of cars and re-base the number from 1 to 5 or whatever based on that spread. It's a shame they dont do this but then, nobody's perfect.

That's not to say that the car industry isn't filled with "awards" and "ratings" that are just bought and paid for drivel by oem's. My favorite is car of the year awards for car's where the model year isn't even for sale yet to the general public.

At least consumer reports tries to test some things (like tv's and such) and isn't blatently obvious giving awards to whoever gives them the most advertising dollars (jd power, kbb (to some extent), etc).

I dont use them...since if i'm bothering to research something I research it like an enthusiast and not a consumer. But it's pretty obvious you can have data driven numbers and contradictory results because we're all working with messy data.

[I`m Batman]

My Camaro is so unreliable... It's so unreliable at being unreliable... Because it's never been unreliable and never gave me any problems. Zero problems.



It can't even do the unreliable right. gaaahhhhh.

[UnknownJinX]

You are all complaining about unreliability? *laughs in BMW and rotary*

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

to be fair, even though they dont document their "reports" like a scientific study ought to ... they probably do have data feeds from one or more data sources for repair work and they probably base some of the "reliability" info on opt-in surveys that oem's tend to offer when you purchase new cars.

And the conflicting data their own site reports isn't unexpected either. There are many cases where people are happy with substandard garbage. I'm sure everyone listens to streaming music and is good with that but my reliability report would show that it's been triple re-encoded in different garbage (for quality) codecs and receives a score of 1 out of 5 while flac files receive a 5/5 but nobody knows what that is and so isn't even on the list for consumer satisfaction. Samsung is a brand lots of people like and they bricked everyone's blue ray players last week.

So i can totally see a 5/5 self scoring number existing while something is total garbage by the data.

Not that the camaro is unreliable. I've had no problem with mine since owning it in feb 2016. Though, anytime you have a car that's designed to exist at it's physical limits being sold to a userbase that is going to drive it at it's limits, you're going to get failures more frequently than a car that's designed to exist near the bottom or middle of it's limits.

So if the data actually did show higher than avg failures for the number of cars sold, that's not necessarily a bad thing. That could just mean that camaro drivers like to have fun and the camaro screams like a dirty porn star in their ears to go faster - harder.

The other problem is that, for CR, all kinds of problems are considered equal; there is no categorization for problems, so someone going in for a weird noise in the door is the same as someone going in with an exploded engine. They both count as a problem, so some cars would be more "unreliable" due to some fit and finish issues but when people hear unreliable, they likely think of exploding engines and transmissions.

IMO there should be a system that should consider these problems differently. An engine defect is a 10/10 on the scale, while a creak would be 2 or 3/10. It's not gonna be a perfect system, but it's a start.

[Nothing like an SS]

This is all so very depressing, I set out to get the MOST unreliable car in America, now I found out that isn't factual? I trusted CR to give me the very worst car I could buy, now it is all just opinions with no facts?

Wow, what am I going to do with this awesome and reliable car I have? Oh the horror!!!!!! LOL

Crap...anybody have Yugo to sell me???????

[cellsafemode]

they may be looking at it from the standpoint of the end user. Every instance where something (whatever it may be) needed to goto a shop to be fixed is time you can't use your car. In which case, the kind of problem doesn't matter, just the length of time it's out of your possession (not that I know if they're weighing that in their numbers or just looking at counts of instances).

Which is a better metric of reliability? One could argue that while the "out of hands" measure is better for the buyer, it relies a lot on the competency and availability of the person doing the repair as much as the particular problem. But a measure of actual type of problems that avoids those variables fails to capture the fact that a malfunctioning hard to diagnose infotainment problem can lead to being out of a vehicle more than a busted transmission and is just as un-ignorable.

I think the point is that enthusiasts dont base their buying decisions on magazines/websites meant for non-enthusiasts. And that the camaro isn't cross shopped by non-enthusiasts much at all as evidence by the low sales volumes, so what consumer reports says doesn't factor into the camaro much at all. If you're not a car enthusiast, then you buy one of the many uninteresting cars meant for the masses and consumer reports is where you goto for that info. The number of non-enthusiasts talked into a camaro are insignificant.

Now if jegs or summit started reviewing modern muscle/pony/sports cars or some other kind of website that focused on modern performance vehicles that wasn't a failing magazine (i know of none) ...then we might have numbers we should be rightly arguing over since those would probably sway enthusiasts opinions and matter. Consumer reports might as well be named "Soccer mom and Dads who have given up Reports" when it comes to cars.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by Nothing like an SS

This is all so very depressing, I set out to get the MOST unreliable car in America, now I found out that isn't factual? I trusted CR to give me the very worst car I could buy, now it is all just opinions with no facts?

Wow, what am I going to do with this awesome and reliable car I have? Oh the horror!!!!!! LOL

Crap...anybody have Yugo to sell me???????

As I mentioned, plenty of off-lease BMW and $1500 RX-8 you can buy if you want to go down that route.

[soloknight6]

Originally Posted by I`m Batman

My Camaro is so unreliable... It's so unreliable at being unreliable... Because it's never been unreliable and never gave me any problems. Zero problems.



It can't even do the unreliable right. gaaahhhhh.

But you have an M6, not an A8