[DorkMissile]

Well I can say that not every vengeance customer is a happy one - have a friend who shipped them his C7 LT1 car for a full build. 416 engine, A&A blower, Meth Inj, etc... etc... ($24k in work) and less than 100 miles after getting it back lost the transmission (never beat on it as the engine was new and was still breaking it in - lost reverse). He took it to the local tuner to have the transmission fixed (out of his own pocket). They replaced the trans, and the local tuner street tuned the trans. Said the car was nowhere near the 899hp that it supposedly made on the dyno.

He drove it gingerly for a couple of thousand miles to finish breaking it in, and then we had the PowerCruise event at BIR and he towed it up there for the weekend. Once driving under full power it shred the blower belt in under 10 minutes. After I helped repair all the wiring that was pulled out by the belt, we sourced a new belt and went to install it - the belt was the wrong length (too short) and was routed incorrectly from the beginning.

He has the correct length belt that A&A recommends for his pulley setup now, routed correctly and the belt seems to be living, but the car really doesn't perform as advertised. They provided him a 899hp dyno sheet - my all stock LT1 Camaro with a ECS Kit/E85/Meth Inj walks away from his.

Not digging on vengeance - but after working on the car myself, it appears to me that since the car was shipped to them and shipped back, sight unseen, that they had the new kid working on the car.

Its their loss - my friend had multiple calls into them over the summer and they really wouldn't buy into helping him. He is a young (30) guy who received a large amount of money due to a settlement on a work injury. Seems like they would want to keep car addicted millionaires as happy customers.

[RonatVengeance]

For anyone interested in shopping with Vengeance Racing we are always more than happy to put together ITEMIZED/DETAILED estimates for your review so that you know exactly what you are getting and what you are paying for.

Sure... You can bolt on a cold air and call it a day. Many folks do it. Our 14 years of being in business show there to be added benefit by including the items we do in our packages. When you look at camshaft kits a lot of companies will sell you a "camshaft/valve spring kit/pushrods" and call it a day... We include numerous additional items that may not be "required", but certainly add to the longevity of your engine and reduce the risk of failure. This may raise the price a bit, but ensures an overall better product with added peace of mind. Our track record with satisfied customers and the reliability of their vehicles validates this overwhelmingly.

Our focus is not only on performance, but reliability/longevity as well. In our opinion, it is too risky to "slap on a cold air" without a proper ECU calibration. We see STOCK cars ranging over a full point of air fuel when baselining stock vehicles. There are simply too many variables to risk our customers vehicle whether it be a basic Stage I or a 1400RWHP combination.

Again if anyone is interested in any of our products/performance packages or customizing a build to suit your exact needs feel free to contact myself (Ron@VengeanceRacing.net) or David (David@VengeanceRacing.net) and we will be happy to provide an itemized estimate showing you exactly what goes into your build and I believe you will easily understand the actual cost vs return. You can rest assured, part for part and labor hour for labor hour we are actually NOT more expensive than 90% of our competitors and we almost always deliver MORE POWER PER DOLLAR SPENT.

Lastly, there is more to a business transaction than just the price involved. Vengeance Racing prides itself on long lasting relationships as well as customer service before/during AND AFTER the sale. We work with folks EVERYDAY that got the "cheapest price", but cannot get a return call from that company to answer a simple tech question or engage in a follow up sale.

There is a reason why we do what we do and how we do it. We did not earn the reputation we have by cutting corners or by being the cheapest...

Regards,

Ron Mowen, Owner
Vengeance Racing

[Crim]

Originally Posted by RonatVengeance

For anyone interested in shopping with Vengeance Racing we are always more than happy to put together ITEMIZED/DETAILED estimates for your review so that you know exactly what you are getting and what you are paying for.

Sure... You can bolt on a cold air and call it a day. Many folks do it. Our 14 years of being in business show there to be added benefit by including the items we do in our packages. When you look at camshaft kits a lot of companies will sell you a "camshaft/valve spring kit/pushrods" and call it a day... We include numerous additional items that may not be "required", but certainly add to the longevity of your engine and reduce the risk of failure. This may raise the price a bit, but ensures an overall better product with added peace of mind. Our track record with satisfied customers and the reliability of their vehicles validates this overwhelmingly.

Our focus is not only on performance, but reliability/longevity as well. In our opinion, it is too risky to "slap on a cold air" without a proper ECU calibration. We see STOCK cars ranging over a full point of air fuel when baselining stock vehicles. There are simply too many variables to risk our customers vehicle whether it be a basic Stage I or a 1400RWHP combination.

Again if anyone is interested in any of our products/performance packages or customizing a build to suit your exact needs feel free to contact myself (Ron@VengeanceRacing.net) or David (David@VengeanceRacing.net) and we will be happy to provide an itemized estimate showing you exactly what goes into your build and I believe you will easily understand the actual cost vs return. You can rest assured, part for part and labor hour for labor hour we are actually NOT more expensive than 90% of our competitors and we almost always deliver MORE POWER PER DOLLAR SPENT.

Lastly, there is more to a business transaction than just the price involved. Vengeance Racing prides itself on long lasting relationships as well as customer service before/during AND AFTER the sale. We work with folks EVERYDAY that got the "cheapest price", but cannot get a return call from that company to answer a simple tech question or engage in a follow up sale.

There is a reason why we do what we do and how we do it. We did not earn the reputation we have by cutting corners or by being the cheapest...

Regards,

Ron Mowen, Owner
Vengeance Racing

Agree with all of that, but I think the tread is mostly discussing the $1900 entry level package which is really just a Cold Air Intake and tune which IMHO would not be needed until headers or something goes on. You have to admit it's a bit of sticker shock.

[RonatVengeance]

Originally Posted by DorkMissile

Well I can say that not every vengeance customer is a happy one - have a friend who shipped them his C7 LT1 car for a full build. 416 engine, A&A blower, Meth Inj, etc... etc... ($24k in work) and less than 100 miles after getting it back lost the transmission (never beat on it as the engine was new and was still breaking it in - lost reverse). He took it to the local tuner to have the transmission fixed (out of his own pocket). They replaced the trans, and the local tuner street tuned the trans. Said the car was nowhere near the 899hp that it supposedly made on the dyno.

He drove it gingerly for a couple of thousand miles to finish breaking it in, and then we had the PowerCruise event at BIR and he towed it up there for the weekend. Once driving under full power it shred the blower belt in under 10 minutes. After I helped repair all the wiring that was pulled out by the belt, we sourced a new belt and went to install it - the belt was the wrong length (too short) and was routed incorrectly from the beginning.

He has the correct length belt that A&A recommends for his pulley setup now, routed correctly and the belt seems to be living, but the car really doesn't perform as advertised. They provided him a 899hp dyno sheet - my all stock LT1 Camaro with a ECS Kit/E85/Meth Inj walks away from his.

Not digging on vengeance - but after working on the car myself, it appears to me that since the car was shipped to them and shipped back, sight unseen, that they had the new kid working on the car.

Its their loss - my friend had multiple calls into them over the summer and they really wouldn't buy into helping him. He is a young (30) guy who received a large amount of money due to a settlement on a work injury. Seems like they would want to keep car addicted millionaires as happy customers.

You are correct... We cannot please everyone. That said, we will always put fourth 100% effort to do so no matter what the situation.


I am aware of the customer you are referencing only because of the tuner in your signature and some recent communications with both. We have emails as recent as last week thanking us for helping him (Kyle) and not being satisfied after being led down different paths that let him down.

We obviously cannot help his stock GM automatic transmission failing, but can assure you the car made the power (actually 886, not 899 as you stated) when it left here.

There are a lot of variables such as traction/heat/driver etc that will effect the outcome of a race.

Also anyone who knows centrifugal supercharger systems knows that it is impossible to route a belt incorrectly and A: The belt stay on and B: the car actually make power.... The tighter belt we had installed was due to the belt slipping with the suggested part # from A&A... If you have a longer belt on the car this is likely part of the reason the car feels "nowhere close to 886rwhp". I am also curious how you would reference the belt routing being incorrect if indeed the belt had shredded and caused all of the damage you state above?

Kyle, as well as ANY of our clients are always welcome to reach out to us with any concerns and we will always go above and beyond to meet/exceed their needs. We offer tech support/remote support for these very reasons.


Finally, we do not employ "new kids" and do not treat ANY car any different than the other.

[RonatVengeance]

Originally Posted by Crim

Agree with all of that, but I think the tread is mostly discussing the $1900 entry level package which is really just a Cold Air Intake and tune which IMHO would not be needed until headers or something goes on. You have to admit it's a bit of sticker shock.

Thank you... I defer to my statements above about bolting on aftermarket parts without proper ECU calibration. Something to mention that most folks may not understand is that once you pay for an ECU calibration with VR the updates when additional modifications are performed are priced with a significant discount as the vehicle has already been licensed and the base calibration file in place.

RE: our Stage I Package....

RotoFab Cold Air- $469.95
LT 180* Thermostat- $29.99
DexCool- $18.99
Head Sleeves- $70.00

Labor- Includes baselining vehicle on our chassis dyno/racking vehicle/draining coolant/replacing thermostat/removing OE cold air/installing RotoFab/Removing spark plug wires to install our heat sleeves/inspecting vehicle for quality/removing vehicle from rack- 3 hours @ $110.00/Hour= $330.00

ECU Calibration is $690.00 and include a full street/dyno tune as well as licensing credits for your specific vehicle. You also get the 'Before/After" dyno comparison since we take the time to baseline every vehicle that comes thru our doors.

Lastly we have a small shop supply fee (disposable seat cover/ disposable floor mat/brake kleen/ disposal of used coolant as well as shipping of incoming parts.

We also perform a complete vehicle check in service as well as check out service to ensure your vehicle leaves in the same or better condition as it arrived. We offer a warranty on all workmanship performed. We wash/vacuum your vehicle after completion and we ensure it has over 1/2 tank of 93 octane fuel prior to delivery.

Hopefully this information helps folks better understand how we achieve the pricing for our Stage I Performance Package for the 6th Gen Camaro.

[TC2018SS1LE]

Originally Posted by Crim

Agree with all of that, but I think the tread is mostly discussing the $1900 entry level package which is really just a Cold Air Intake and tune which IMHO would not be needed until headers or something goes on. You have to admit it's a bit of sticker shock.

Want an intake?
Buy it and put it on, it is really that easy.

I'm making almost 500whp for less than double of what they charge for an intake.

[HouseStark]

Originally Posted by RonatVengeance

Thank you... I defer to my statements above about bolting on aftermarket parts without proper ECU calibration. Something to mention that most folks may not understand is that once you pay for an ECU calibration with VR the updates when additional modifications are performed are priced with a significant discount as the vehicle has already been licensed and the base calibration file in place.

RE: our Stage I Package....

RotoFab Cold Air- $469.95
LT 180* Thermostat- $29.99
DexCool- $18.99
Head Sleeves- $70.00

Labor- Includes baselining vehicle on our chassis dyno/racking vehicle/draining coolant/replacing thermostat/removing OE cold air/installing RotoFab/Removing spark plug wires to install our heat sleeves/inspecting vehicle for quality/removing vehicle from rack- 3 hours @ $110.00/Hour= $330.00

ECU Calibration is $690.00 and include a full street/dyno tune as well as licensing credits for your specific vehicle. You also get the 'Before/After" dyno comparison since we take the time to baseline every vehicle that comes thru our doors.

Lastly we have a small shop supply fee (disposable seat cover/ disposable floor mat/brake kleen/ disposal of used coolant as well as shipping of incoming parts.

We also perform a complete vehicle check in service as well as check out service to ensure your vehicle leaves in the same or better condition as it arrived. We offer a warranty on all workmanship performed. We wash/vacuum your vehicle after completion and we ensure it has over 1/2 tank of 93 octane fuel prior to delivery.

Hopefully this information helps folks better understand how we achieve the pricing for our Stage I Performance Package for the 6th Gen Camaro.

Impressive to through a break down out there in public. Also, I think you handled your responses with class. Not to question the integrity or quality of your shop's work but it is sticker shock to see 1900 for stage 1. I think the fact that you provide dyno tuning, sheets for before and after pulls, ect helps lessen that. I'm not sure if it's listed that way on your site but I think it would be beneficial if this information was available on there if it isn't. Especially useful for someone, like myself, who is new to the platform and not quite sure what would be gauging or not since guys like me are more likely to start at stage 1 then 700whp builds.

[HouseStark]

Originally Posted by mlee

No, not at all which is mainly why I made the comments I did.

You will be fine with Ted. He's definitely well established and does good work.

Was in communication with Ted today. Really nice guy and immediately responsive with my emails.

[Crim]

Originally Posted by RonatVengeance

Thank you... I defer to my statements above about bolting on aftermarket parts without proper ECU calibration. Something to mention that most folks may not understand is that once you pay for an ECU calibration with VR the updates when additional modifications are performed are priced with a significant discount as the vehicle has already been licensed and the base calibration file in place.

RE: our Stage I Package....

RotoFab Cold Air- $469.95
LT 180* Thermostat- $29.99
DexCool- $18.99
Head Sleeves- $70.00

Labor- Includes baselining vehicle on our chassis dyno/racking vehicle/draining coolant/replacing thermostat/removing OE cold air/installing RotoFab/Removing spark plug wires to install our heat sleeves/inspecting vehicle for quality/removing vehicle from rack- 3 hours @ $110.00/Hour= $330.00

ECU Calibration is $690.00 and include a full street/dyno tune as well as licensing credits for your specific vehicle. You also get the 'Before/After" dyno comparison since we take the time to baseline every vehicle that comes thru our doors.

Lastly we have a small shop supply fee (disposable seat cover/ disposable floor mat/brake kleen/ disposal of used coolant as well as shipping of incoming parts.

We also perform a complete vehicle check in service as well as check out service to ensure your vehicle leaves in the same or better condition as it arrived. We offer a warranty on all workmanship performed. We wash/vacuum your vehicle after completion and we ensure it has over 1/2 tank of 93 octane fuel prior to delivery.

Hopefully this information helps folks better understand how we achieve the pricing for our Stage I Performance Package for the 6th Gen Camaro.

As I mentioned a RotoFab does not require a tune and even with tune you're talking very little to no gains on a 6th Gen.

Tweeking AF mixture a tad for $690 is crazy talk. And on top of that 3hrs labor for a T-stat, CAI install and popping some un-needed sleeves on the plug wires.

I'm sorry man... I'm a big Vengeance fan, but I could never recommend this package to anyone.
(It's just a CAI install and nothing else but huge $$ makers added on... so I get that part business wise.)

[mlee]

Originally Posted by HouseStark

Was in communication with Ted today. Really nice guy and immediately responsive with my emails.

He is a great resource and very easy to communicate with.

[HouseStark]

Originally Posted by Crim

As I mentioned a RotoFab does not require a tune and even with tune you're talking very little to no gains on a 6th Gen.

Tweeking AF mixture a tad for $690 is crazy talk. And on top of that 3hrs labor for a T-stat, CAI install and popping some un-needed sleeves on the plug wires.

I'm sorry man... I'm a big Vengeance fan, but I could never recommend this package to anyone.
(It's just a CAI install and nothing else but huge $$ makers added on... so I get that part business wise.)

Katech has a somewhat similar set up. Basically intake, throttle body, tune with some other stuff. It does say it will make car have 510hp. Do you think this is actually true? Do you think are any power gains from Vengeance package both are similar price.

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by HouseStark

How was your experience with Jannette? It’s interesting here on Camaro6 everyone says great things. On LS1Tech he’s the biggest scam artist of all time.

My personal take; he seems extremely professional and knowledgeable. I’m very impressed by his street brawler package. What were your experiences?

In my experience, he is the bomb (along with his team). Not cheap, but I am very satisfied with their expertise, customer service, quality of work, integrity and the final results after each mod. Long term means more to me than a few bucks saved in the right now.

[Joshinator99]

Originally Posted by HouseStark

Katech has a somewhat similar set up. Basically intake, throttle body, tune with some other stuff. It does say it will make car have 510hp. Do you think this is actually true? Do you think are any power gains from Vengeance package both are similar price.

Hard to complain about Katech. Their pipeline to factory direct info, engineering expertise, and hardcore racing experience is second to none IMO.

[TC2018SS1LE]

Originally Posted by HouseStark

Katech has a somewhat similar set up. Basically intake, throttle body, tune with some other stuff. It does say it will make car have 510hp. Do you think this is actually true? Do you think are any power gains from Vengeance package both are similar price.

What are the other things? Anyone claiming a SS Camaro is going to be at 510hp with an intake, throttle body, and tune is a liar and you should never trust anything the person making that claim says.
In fact, don't trust they are giving you their correct name.