[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by oldman

Then Norm a Miata is for you, they still make them. You may consider a Miata a "connected" performance car. I don't.

Actually, a Miata with a 3+ liter, 7000+ rpm capable V6 has crossed my mind. As hard to understand as it may be, I'm not against performance in the way you and others are choosing to define it. A Miata does need a bit more "oomph" before it would truly suit me. But I have no need for it to be C8 quick.

You are just out of any future performance car because of a manual is just not fast enough when it comes to err PERFORMACE. 1/4, drag race, street fight and probably most types of racing, from a roll, everyday acceleration the DCT is BETTER. You are absolutely correct that when NOT using maximum performance there is nothing "wrong" with a manual. Most cars sold are not performance cars, obviously many people buy performance cars because of performance.... I know that concept is a bit strange to you. Maybe you should actually drive a modern car with an auto. Clearly, an 11-year-old Mustang and a WRX (an archaic joke of a car), have left you disconnected to the reality of modern performance.

I'm afraid you're still playing the bragging rights card. Just from a different deck with a different design on the back.

Try to understand that straight line performance metrics simply don't mean as much to me as they do to you.

Guess you missed where the WRX is our family sedan. What's yours, and does it really provide enough straight line performance to suit you . . . or is it the sort of vehicle that's best driven with its ECU and the driver's mind both set to cruise control?


Norm

[oldman]

I get you Norm, the only performance that counts is in your mind. Enjoy the beater Mustang. The C8 could never be appreciated by you... because it has “too” much straight line performance...... says the guy that wants to put a V6 into a Miata... see I get you Norm, I do. Only a limited vehicle makes Norm happy. Has to be a little rough around the edge. It like saying you like plain girls because they are more friendly. Stick around and i’m Sure the c8 will corner too well, cause real men do lt need that much grip... I know deep down you are a live axle biasply kind of guy. You know you can get a Beck Spyder, toss in a 2180 single turbo, heck I may even take a ride in that death trap.. since I’m worth more dead than alive.

So yep, I get you, same reason I keep over clocking my AMD chip and now have a house fan blowing on it... cause real men don’t buy a cool running Intel chip, what fun would that be? At least I admit the Intel is better in every way and I’m just a mean, angry skinflint.

[KingLT1]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Try to understand that straight line performance metrics simply don't mean as much to me as they do to you.


Norm

That is great...and had you said it that way from the get go you likely wouldn't be in a 3 page debate over it. Initially it read like you were preaching that comparing straight line performance is dumb and you don't understand why anybody uses that for a comparison.

[Lafourche1]

Norm,

I don't think you deserve the derision that is being directed your way. I can understand the 20FA engine. The WRX offers a slice of fun with a real trunk and 4 doors. There is something to be said for a 4 door people hauler that can put a smile on your face (I had a '15WRX).

I also think you may spend time on a track (Tracks have turns. Strips are straight.). You have made more than a few insightful comments and I don't get why so many folks have their panties in a wad over "your opinion".

FWIW, I would like to see a MX-5 with 250HP from the factory, myself.

[Frank237]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

It's not fake news like some sort of new development, it's bias that has existed for a long time. It's the people that claim their 3 series or whatever euro sedan has a "much nicer interior" when it has miles of plastic that they are just choosing to not see, or really stupid comments like "nicer knobs". While some of this used to be true, to a much higher extent, the ease of obtaining information over the last 20-25 years has meant that auto-makers can easily match each-other and in many cases, there is not this huge gap anymore. The gap persists in the minds of people that have been trained to see or think one thing.

FWIW I knew one of the C&D writers/photographers 20+ years back, Larry Griffin. He did an article published in 1997 on Montanas non numerical, "reasonable and prudent" daytime speed limit. I was one of the Montana Troopers he rode with, for almost 2 weeks.

Larry impressed me with his zeal on finding the FACTS. I doubt there was an error in that article at all. He was a stickler for the truth.

Sadly times have changed.

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by Lafourche1

Norm,

I don't think you deserve the derision that is being directed your way. I can understand the 20FA engine. The WRX offers a slice of fun with a real trunk and 4 doors. There is something to be said for a 4 door people hauler that can put a smile on your face (I had a '15WRX).

I also think you may spend time on a track (Tracks have turns. Strips are straight.). You have made more than a few insightful comments and I don't get why so many folks have their panties in a wad over "your opinion".

FWIW, I would like to see a MX-5 with 250HP from the factory, myself.

+1...

I get it... speed is great but it's also a massive obsession and money pit for many. Asking the question "For What?" is perfectly reasonable.

I've had many fast cars, some faster than my current SS, and now I just appreciate the driving experience in it's totality. Because you can ALWAYS go faster and the comment about a fast 0-60 or 0-100 never getting old may be true, but the real problem is the perception of "fast" changes.

IDK how many times people here have said the SS feels slow and sluggish, despite a ~4sec 0-60 time. And I get that, but the definition of "fast" is so different now than when I was a kid. I had a poster of a 455 hp / 4200 lb Lamborghini Countach on my wall that is decidedly slow vs my SS. But back in the day it was shockingly fast!

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by KingLT1

That is great...and had you said it that way from the get go you likely wouldn't be in a 3 page debate over it. Initially it read like you were preaching that comparing straight line performance is dumb and you don't understand why anybody uses that for a comparison.

I thought it was obvious enough, but I guess the word 'performance' still means forward acceleration capability is everything and nothing else matters to a great number of enthusiasts. As soon as that word appears, on come the blinders to anything else.

I just don't understand is why so many people insist on using it as the only comparison of significance. 0-60's, ET's, sometimes trap speeds, and it goes all crickets after that.


Norm

[c4racer]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

+1...

I get it... speed is great but it's also a massive obsession and money pit for many. Asking the question "For What?" is perfectly reasonable.

I've had many fast cars, some faster than my current SS, and now I just appreciate the driving experience in it's totality. Because you can ALWAYS go faster and the comment about a fast 0-60 or 0-100 never getting old may be true, but the real problem is the perception of "fast" changes.

IDK how many times people here have said the SS feels slow and sluggish, despite a ~4sec 0-60 time. And I get that, but the definition of "fast" is so different now than when I was a kid. I had a poster of a 455 hp / 4200 lb Lamborghini Countach on my wall that is decidedly slow vs my SS. But back in the day it was shockingly fast!

the SS feels slow largely because of all the active torque management going on in the ECM these days. And guess what? The C8 will have even more of that! Will it feel slow? Probably not really - but also may not feel like a 3 sec 0-60 car either to the seat of the pants.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by oldman

I get you Norm, the only performance that counts is in your mind. Enjoy the beater Mustang. The C8 could never be appreciated by you... because it has “too” much straight line performance...... says the guy that wants to put a V6 into a Miata... see I get you Norm, I do. Only a limited vehicle makes Norm happy. Has to be a little rough around the edge. It like saying you like plain girls because they are more friendly. I know deep down you are a live axle biasply kind of guy. You know you can get a Beck Spyder, toss in a 2180 single turbo, heck I may even take a ride in that death trap.. since I’m worth more dead than alive.

No, you still don't quite understand. Where the transmission issue is concerned, it's because the performance improvement is the result of taking the driver yet another step away from . . . doing his own driving.

I do like "rough around the edges", but that's a subtopic for another time and a different thread.

Stick around and i’m Sure the c8 will corner too well, cause real men do lt need that much grip...

1.0x lateral g's is already kind of a yawn. That crude, horribly limited Mustang of mine can pull more than 1.2g. On true street tires.


Even at nearly 100 mph

So yep, I get you, same reason I keep over clocking my AMD chip and now have a house fan blowing on it... cause real men don’t buy a cool running Intel chip, what fun would that be? At least I admit the Intel is better in every way and I’m just a mean, angry skinflint.

I'm not refusing to admit anything. I'm trying to tell you that what they've done with the C8 in this one respect is not making it better for me, no matter how many people it is becoming better for.


Norm

[oldman]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

I thought it was obvious enough, but I guess the word 'performance' still means forward acceleration capability is everything and nothing else matters to a great number of enthusiasts. As soon as that word appears, on come the blinders to anything else.

I just don't understand is why so many people insist on using it as the only comparison of significance. 0-60's, ET's, sometimes trap speeds, and it goes all crickets after that.


Norm

The c8 turns and brakes too, in case you did not know.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by Lafourche1

Norm,

I don't think you deserve the derision that is being directed your way. I can understand the 20FA engine. The WRX offers a slice of fun with a real trunk and 4 doors. There is something to be said for a 4 door people hauler that can put a smile on your face (I had a '15WRX).

I also think you may spend time on a track (Tracks have turns. Strips are straight.). You have made more than a few insightful comments and I don't get why so many folks have their panties in a wad over "your opinion".

FWIW, I would like to see a MX-5 with 250HP from the factory, myself.

Well Norm wants to do it with a V6, which would hose the balance, a strange want from somebody so fixated against “straight line performance”. The is a supercharger plus exhaust that can can get the NC there no problem.

[s346k]

Originally Posted by KingLT1

Initially it read like you were preaching that comparing straight line performance is dumb and you don't understand why anybody uses that for a comparison.

i didn’t read his comments like that, at all. i think he disagreed with some folks and they got their panties all bunched up over it.

and funny he mentioned the miata. a friend and i had that exact discussion this morning. how much fun a 250-300 na hp miata would be. the funny part - we’re both long standing 1/4 mile guys.

omg your car won’t short time under 1.5 and trap over 130? junk. it’s like 2010 all over again.

[shaffe]

A 300 hp Miata would be awesome

[oldman]

You can get that with a K24 swap. NA too. At that point you have a S2000. Even though I'm fully and completely a VTEC man, I think in the future the BMW 4 banger will be the swap of choice because it comes in all three flavors: FWD, RWD, 4WD. It is also a great engine with a broad torque band. No it an't a K or B VTEC but the VANOS is in many ways just as elegant. Just like Lotus people always say, "add lightness". The Miata does not need HP as much as it needs to stay light.