[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Ford beat the 5th gen Camaro bests - Z28 bested by the GT350R (both in acceleration and around a track, for substantially less MSRP, btw) and the 5th gen ZL1 with the '13 GT500 (at least in a straight line). I would not be surprised if Ford bests the 6th gen Camaro's best with this car. ZLE will be a tough act to beat but, it can be done. We're all assuming, I think, that the GT500 will beat it on the strip. The GT350R is already nipping on the 6th gen ZL1's heels around a track based on H2H (with a massive hp and torque disadvantage, btw. The ZL1 has 50% more peak torque than the R). Ford has said the GT500 (not sure base or track pack) will be substantially faster than the R.

GM will eventually come out with a car that bests the GT500 and the tables will turn. That is how the game is played.

[DevilsReject97]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

Ford beat the 5th gen Camaro bests - Z28 bested by the GT350R (both in acceleration and around a track, for substantially less MSRP, btw) and the 5th gen ZL1 with the '13 GT500 (at least in a straight line). I would not be surprised if Ford bests the 6th gen Camaro's best with this car. ZLE will be a tough act to beat but, it can be done. We're all assuming, I think, that the GT500 will beat it on the strip. The GT350R is already nipping on the 6th gen ZL1's heels around a track based on H2H (with a massive hp and torque disadvantage, btw. The ZL1 has 50% more peak torque than the R). Ford has said the GT500 (not sure base or track pack) will be substantially faster than the R.

GM will eventually come out with a car that bests the GT500 and the tables will turn. That is how the game is played.

To start, the Z28 only had 505 hp...which was N/A and was only what...80 hp more than the standard GT at the time? So how difficult was it to use a lighter platform, copy a similar setup like the Z/28..

The GT350R is a beautiful car, sounds amazing, and is really a great Mustang...BUT...the price and ADM kill it...just like the price on the Z/28 did the same to it..

Neither the 5th gen nor the 6th gen ZL1's have ever tried to go for broke on the HP mark. The LSA engines were easily pushed to 600-700HP with not a lot of effort. You also have to remember that the current 6th gen SS is basically putting down similar 1/4 mile times with about 120 hp less... so that added weight was a huge issue on the 5th gen..still, for a car using a borrowed chassis, they outsold Ford for 5 years straight..

I think we all agree the GT500 will be the #2 on the drag strip behind the RE, and in front of the ZL1....but on the track, I still expect it to be #2 behind the ZL1 1LE (albeit not every track).

Additionally, GM has the capability to boost the HP on the ZL1 engines VERY VERY easily... they chose not too.... these cars could easily be 720-750hp with MINOR, and I do mean, MINOR effort on GM's part..

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Why wouldn't the GT500 go against the ZL1?

Why does the regular GT500 with no aero bits have to go against the ZL1 track package?

The answer to your question is below.

The GT500 should have the ZLE nipping at it’s heals, but falling short, due to the GT500’s massive power and torque advantage.

GT500 vs ZLE
Right newmoon, Idaho?

Originally Posted by newmoon

Hmmm thinking about that statement. The ZL1 needed an extra 124-hp, and 221-tq advantage to slighty beat the GT350R in H2H. No advantage there right. So when the GT500 comes in at 750-hp and smokes the ZL1 you will not be crying that it has a HP/TQ advantage right?

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

The GT350R is already nipping on the 6th gen ZL1's heels around a track based on H2H (with a massive hp and torque disadvantage, btw. The ZL1 has 50% more peak torque than the R). Ford has said the GT500 (not sure base or track pack) will be substantially faster than the R.

[DevilsReject97]

I do question how well the Magneride suspension will do on the track in the Carbon edition vs. the DSSV shocks the 1LE runs... thats going to be an interesting comparison..

kinda similar to how people preferred the ride of the GT350R over the base ZL1 because it felt more "alive"..

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by hotlap

The answer to your question is below.

The GT500 should have the ZLE nipping at it’s heals, but falling short, due to the GT500’s massive power and torque advantage.

GT500 vs ZLE
Right newmoon, Idaho?

Ha, more than likely the ZL1 will have as much or more torque than the GT500. The Ford Performance/Roush setup for the 18+ GT makes 700hp/610 ft lbs tq., just for a data point example. The GT500 will make more hp than the ZL1 because it will rev higher and will probably make comparable torque. I estimate the GT500 will make around 635-645 ft lbs. based on the 4% extra displacement compared to the Ford Perf./Roush setup for the 18+ GT 5.0. Maybe slightly more due to better heads.

The ZL1 makes 51.5% (!!!) more torque and 24% more hp than the GT350R. That's a gigantic advantage on the track, and can't be ignored. To put that in perspective, an equal % power/torque bump would require the GT500 to make 806 hp/ 985 ft lbs. torque. Neither of those are obviously realistic. GT500 hp could come within 7-8% of that 806 hp figure, i.e., ~750 hp, but torque will be nowhere near 985 ft lbs.

Anyway, the fair and natural comparison will be ZL1 vs GT500 and ZLE vs. GT500 CFTP. Why anyone would argue differently is beyond me. Two trims for each, compare the similar trims.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by DevilsReject97

To start, the Z28 only had 505 hp...which was N/A and was only what...80 hp more than the standard GT at the time? So how difficult was it to use a lighter platform, copy a similar setup like the Z/28..

The GT350R is a beautiful car, sounds amazing, and is really a great Mustang...BUT...the price and ADM kill it...just like the price on the Z/28 did the same to it..

Neither the 5th gen nor the 6th gen ZL1's have ever tried to go for broke on the HP mark. The LSA engines were easily pushed to 600-700HP with not a lot of effort. You also have to remember that the current 6th gen SS is basically putting down similar 1/4 mile times with about 120 hp less... so that added weight was a huge issue on the 5th gen..still, for a car using a borrowed chassis, they outsold Ford for 5 years straight..

I think we all agree the GT500 will be the #2 on the drag strip behind the RE, and in front of the ZL1....but on the track, I still expect it to be #2 behind the ZL1 1LE (albeit not every track).

Additionally, GM has the capability to boost the HP on the ZL1 engines VERY VERY easily... they chose not too.... these cars could easily be 720-750hp with MINOR, and I do mean, MINOR effort on GM's part..

The GT350R only has 526 hp, and if my memory serves me correct, the Motor Trend H2H dyno'd both cars, and they were within 4 rwhp of each other, 467 rwhp (Z28) and 471 rwhp (R), with the 7.0 liter making more torque. That means that the Z28 was slightly underrated and probably made a bit more power that its 505 hp rating. This is not the first time GM has done this (i.e. LS1 in the 4th gen, C7 Z06, etc.). Ford sometimes does the same thing (Terminator Cobra Mustang, 18+ 5.0, etc.).

I realize there's almost always more power in a car to be had, esp. a factory supercharged engine. The Terminator Mustang is a perfect example. Pulley change alone brought out big power gains. But manufacturers have to meet cost and manufacturing requirements, EPA/emissions requirements, mpg requirements, reliability and drivability requirements, etc. And they have other reasons why they don't always build the engines with peak power always in mind. In addition, changing things means re-certification of the engine and what not, so it's easier said than done.

This hp war is getting insane, though, where 650 hp only brings you to the table of the ultra powerful cars.

[BlaqWhole]

The GT500 will have every advantage in it's corner. And despite all that I still believe it will not match the ZL1. Even if it does the price will be much higher. So this is a battle that no matter what the ZL1 cannot lose. All the pressure is on the GT500. If it beats the ZL1 then the ZL1 will not look bad at all. If it doesn't then the ZL1 will look good. And all the shit talk in the world cannot change that simple fact.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

Ha, more than likely the ZL1 will have as much or more torque than the GT500. The Ford Performance/Roush setup for the 18+ GT makes 700hp/610 ft lbs tq., just for a data point example. The GT500 will make more hp than the ZL1 because it will rev higher and will probably make comparable torque. I estimate the GT500 will make around 635-645 ft lbs. based on the 4% extra displacement compared to the Ford Perf./Roush setup for the 18+ GT 5.0. Maybe slightly more due to better heads.

The ZL1 makes 51.5% (!!!) more torque and 24% more hp than the GT350R. That's a gigantic advantage on the track, and can't be ignored. To put that in perspective, an equal % power/torque bump would require the GT500 to make 806 hp/ 985 ft lbs. torque. Neither of those are obviously realistic. GT500 hp could come within 7-8% of that 806 hp figure, i.e., ~750 hp, but torque will be nowhere near 985 ft lbs.

Anyway, the fair and natural comparison will be ZL1 vs GT500 and ZLE vs. GT500 CFTP. Why anyone would argue differently is beyond me. Two trims for each, compare the similar trims.

I don’t disagree with what the comparison should be, but you like to point to the power advantage and over look that the ZL1 weighed 200 lbs more and isn’t a pure Track car.

The GT350R is light and was built specifically for that purpose. A ZL1 1LE would have lapped the GT350R ...due to its power and torque advantage. The grand touring ZL1 is so good, naturally, that the R couldn’t hang

This shows that power alone guarantees nothing. Also, look at the torque on the 2014. 610 lb-ft would be a backward step. ...and I thought torque means nothing to the Ford community...gearing...gearing...gearing...power... rpms

[INDENT]

DEARBORN, Mich., May 15, 2012 – The 2013 Ford Shelby GT500 is about to go where no Mustang has gone before, with a complete package for everyday drivers and track-day enthusiasts alike, 662 horsepower and top track speeds of more than 200 mph.

Handling, all AdvanceTrac. The previously available unique traction control system and electronic stability control settings help drivers achieve maximum performance whether on the street or the track.

Both systems can be completely disabled in controlled track situations where maximum driver skill is utilized, or fully engaged for safety during normal driving or in less-than-ideal traction conditions.

The upgraded Brembo brake system complements the other changes on the 2013 Shelby GT500 for control and fade-free stops in road and race situations.

Going further
Also new for 2013 is an optional Performance Package with electronically adjustable dampers and a Torsen® limited-slip differential. A Track Package can be added for all-out racetrack performance including three additional coolers.
http://ophelia.sdsu.edu:8080/ford/09...-as-35567.html

[DevilsReject97]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

I realize there's almost always more power in a car to be had, esp. a factory supercharged engine. The Terminator Mustang is a perfect example. Pulley change alone brought out big power gains. But manufacturers have to meet cost and manufacturing requirements, EPA/emissions requirements, mpg requirements, reliability and drivability requirements, etc. And they have other reasons why they don't always build the engines with peak power always in mind. In addition, changing things means re-certification of the engine and what not, so it's easier said than done.

This hp war is getting insane, though, where 650 hp only brings you to the table of the ultra powerful cars.

Absolutely! Those Terminators were amazing once you got the pulley swapped out. They still had issues launching...but that was Ford's fault. A simple pulley swap on the ZL1 puts it at 720 hp right out the gate....so there is an option for GM to bump the HP without much effort... they could easily finally release the drag pack setup that they created which put the ZL1 at a 10 second flat 1/4 mile too...which would obliterate a GT500 and put it on par with the Demon almost...

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by DevilsReject97

I do question how well the Magneride suspension will do on the track in the Carbon edition vs. the DSSV shocks the 1LE runs... thats going to be an interesting comparison..

kinda similar to how people preferred the ride of the GT350R over the base ZL1 because it felt more "alive"..

I think the "more alive" talk stemmed from the carbon fiber wheels. Reducing unsprung/rotating mass REALLY wakes up the front end. I would love to see someone put some carbon fiber wheels on a ZL1 just to see how that effects the tossability on a twisty. Especially on a car with more weight in the supercharged engine than an N/A track type engine. That would be an interesting comparison.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by Ethanolic

GT500:

$70-72.5k starting MSRP

Equal to or quicker than a Redeye on the strip in reviews.
Faster lap times than the ZL1
Slower lap times than ZLE

This seems like a very reasonable prediction. I am very interested to see how the GT500 does against the RedEye. The RedEye is pretty heavy, but Dodge seems to have put some nice drag pack features to help launching and such. Ford looks like they will do the same. Some of the outcome will be determined by who has the better IT department! Kind of wierd, but that's the world we live in now...

I tend to agree with your pricing prediction, and most everything else, except I'm not convinced it will beat the RedEye. Also, I do think there is an outside (not very big) chance that it will beat the ZLE. It will have a big HP advantage, and if it has enough aero, it could take the win depending on the track...

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by hotlap

I don’t disagree with what the comparison should be, but you like to point to the power advantage and over look that the ZL1 weighed 200 lbs more and isn’t a pure Track car.

The GT350R is light and was built specifically for that purpose. A ZL1 1LE would have lapped the GT350R ...due to its power and torque advantage. The grand touring ZL1 is so good, naturally, that the R couldn’t hang

This shows that power alone guarantees nothing. Also, look at the torque on the 2014. 610 lb-ft would be a backward step. ...and I thought torque means nothing to the Ford community...gearing...gearing...gearing...power... rpms
Attachment 984585
[INDENT]

This is the perfect example of just how good the base ZL1 is vs the ultimate Track Pack Ford GT350R.

Where Ford had all the power advantages, it couldn't even touch the Z/28 on any road course. Yet the R, can't even hang with a base ZL1.

We obviously know just how bad the ZLE widens the gap.

I agree with Ethanolic -

GT500 will be faster in a straight line than a ZL1.
GT500 will be slightly slower than the Redeye.
GT500 CFTP +/- or = ZLE depending on track with a slight bias to ZLE w/A10.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlap

I don’t disagree with what the comparison should be, but you like to point to the power advantage and over look that the ZL1 weighed 200 lbs more and isn’t a pure Track car.

The GT350R is light and was built specifically for that purpose. A ZL1 1LE would have lapped the GT350R ...due to its power and torque advantage. The grand touring ZL1 is so good, naturally, that the R couldn’t hang

This shows that power alone guarantees nothing. Also, look at the torque on the 2014. 610 lb-ft would be a backward step. ...and I thought torque means nothing to the Ford community...gearing...gearing...gearing...power... rpms
Attachment 984585
[INDENT]

That is a very good point you bring up. The 5th Gen Z had other advantages over the GT500 like stickier tires, carbon ceramic brakes, it was lighter and the DSSV suspension set up. that is also why the 5th gen Z/28 was able to go much faster than the more powerful ZL1.

For this match up it's going to come down to this I think.

Power advantage GT500
Chassis Advantage ZL1
Weight advantage ZL1 most likely
Suspension - both on magneride (ZLE exception)
Transmission advantage GT500? we will see how good the DCT is
Tires - toss up I would say, both are on good tires

Going off of when the 350R was matched up same day as the ZL1 with the same driver if an extra 200 some HP, DCT and everything they have learned from the 350R cant make up a what was like .39 second gap in lap time then Ford deserves to get the crap they take.


The ZLE. As much as I want the GT500 CFTP to best it that is a tall order. The ZLE is other worldly in performance and that is bravo to GM.

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

This is the perfect example of just how good the base ZL1 is vs the ultimate Track Pack Ford GT350R.

Where Ford had all the power advantages, it couldn't even touch the Z/28 on any road course. Yet the R, can't even hang with a base ZL1.

We obviously know just how bad the ZLE widens the gap.

I agree with Ethanolic -

GT500 will be faster in a straight line than a ZL1.
GT500 will be slightly slower than the Redeye.
GT500 CFTP +/- or = ZLE depending on track with a slight bias to ZLE w/A10.

As far as slower than the RE are we talking magazine tests or real world results? Seems the magazines have all had trouble matching dodge's claimed times for the Hellcat and Demon. I haven't seen any RE reviews yet but I would imagine they would be a bit behind Dodge's claims based on past history

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by Ethanolic

GT500:

$70-72.5k starting MSRP

Equal to or quicker than a Redeye on the strip in reviews.
Faster lap times than the ZL1
Slower lap times than ZLE

I think you're really close. I'm not convinced on MSRP or 1/4 mile time yet, I think it will be more expensive and slower than the RE, but I do think whatever happens, it will be really close to your predictions.