[hotlap]

Originally Posted by rocket403

I really think that the Camaro and Mustang are really close in times but wow lets get really selective on what times we are going to except for the Mustang because it was run by this guy or that and this other Mag never ran a Camaro so we can't take that is butt hurt in my mind.
Some of you are just bench racing blow hards I want to see these two cars go now with all this talk, kind of reminds me of when I would street race on Friday and Sat night and I would always come across someone that would say that the race was not fare so I would race again and the second time they wouldn't come back lol.

I think this is the overall message ...the SS and GT* are really close in a straight line with the edge going to the GT*.

It's not a 0.3 sec gap like some visitors from the other side like to say. Our SSes are A-OK!

I looked over at the M6G 2018 stock fast list earlier. What's up? Its sparse and poorly represented.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

The PP2 did flop. It got held back from being able to do the best it could for starters. As a result it overheated. So all that fanfare just to go out on the track and be able to do just one run? That is a major disappointment.

The GT350 R and non-R are a joke. At least to me and others. What can either of them beat that are in their price range? And then factor in all the issues with the car. If it was just that they can't beat any competitor's cars then that is one thing. But then to have major engine issues and recalls and reliability problems is another thing.

I exaggerated when I mentioned cars that are half the price. But then again the GT beats it. And there is the excuse that the Shelby is not a quarter mile car. Ok neither is the M6 ZL1 with all the TM thrown in but I don't see cars costing half it's price beating it at anything. And regardless if you buy a $50K or $60K car and then lose to a $30K nobody is going to rationalize that "oh well your car wasn't made for blah blah blah blah". Mention that excuse and people will laugh at you even more. People are simply going to look at you like a fool for spending twice as much money on a slower car. How many times do we compare the ZL1 and Z06 and even the SS in a newly opened thread on here to cars that cost way more? If my $40K SS beats an $80 Audi, nobody out there is going to hear an excuse about how luxury items are factored into the price and resale value and all that. They're gonna see one thing...an $80K sports car getting it's ass kicked by a $40K sports car. And if it was once or even twice with Ford then I could look past it. But when their top vehicles constantly get beat by the GT which is their entry level V8 then that really says something.

No it does matter what the car was designed for. What if someone in a 25K Miata beats your Hellcat time in an auto X? Does that make your hellcat a failure because a 25K car with 526 less HP beat it? Answer the question, don't tip toe around it.

The 350R can still beat plenty of cars around a track. It did beat the Z/28 when compared head to head and it did it for 12K less and with your favorite thing to toss out there, did it with more options LOL. (yes the Z was faster in LL) Now as you and me and hotlap have all agreed it was 100% short sighted by ford to target a car going out of production. And has since been eclipsed by the competition.


There is plenty of cars costing way more than the 350R that it beats around the track. Some examples from lightning lap results. I just pulled cars from the same year the 350R was tested and newer

2016 BMW M4 GTS MSRP 135,195
2016 Porche Cayman GT4 MSRP 84,600
2017 Nissan GTR Track Edition MSRP 128,540
2018 BMW M5 MSRP 102,000
2016 CTS-V MSRP 84,990
2018 Hellcat Widebody MSRP 72,590

Now I am sure some of those cars can beat it in a straightline, but the 350R beats them in the arena it was designed to be in on the track. I just don't think it's fair to criticize a car for not doing something well in an area it wasn't designed to do well in.

There isn't really much in it's price range besides the ZL1 and yes the ZL1 beats it handily. Bravo GM and Chevrolet because that means the ZL1 also beats all those high dollar cars as well.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

No they wouldn't because it would give no ghost to chase after. If I have a shop and ran an 18 GT to a 12.5, then threw some mods on it and ran an 11.9 then what motivation would that be to someone who did a 12 flat in their 18 GT? They would not buy my product. Plus I'd lose all credibility if I'm an authority on the car but average Joes are out there pulling better times than me. That is why these shops claim such radical times that nobody else can seem to match. Because it impresses their fans. Just like what happened with Evans when he posted that 11.8. So when they post these runs that nobody can do it gives people something to chase. And then they say "oh well not only did we run an incredible quarter mile with our bone stock GT, but we threw some X mods at it to really see what we could do" and people eat that shit up. It makes them look good and helps them retain their street cred. And then it makes their products look good when they install them and do even better.

Yet nobody wonders why the shops always seem to do a little bit better than everyone else...

See that approach doesn't make anysense to me. It makes their package look better if they go from 12.5 to 11.9 then if they go from 12.1 to 11.9. Makes it look like their tune package can drop .6 off.

Originally Posted by hotlap

I think this is the overall message ...the SS and GT* are really close in a straight line with the edge going to the GT*.

It's not a 0.3 sec gap like some visitors from the other side like to say. Our SSes are A-OK!

I looked over at the M6G 2018 stock fast list earlier. What's up? Its sparse and poorly represented.

That site is terribly run. I don't think anyone even posts in the fast list section or anythinng

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by hotlap

I’m ok also because I own the car with the chassis that is superior in every way. There is no debate.
https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showp...5&postcount=10

12.1 is normal for a SS and the average of the Camaro6 shows it (below).

1-15 = 12.061
1-20 = 12.098
1-25 = 12.130
1-30 = 12.165

Narrow that into the top 10 and the average falls to 12.00 - flat.

That’s why it is silly to spend so much time tell you, and the long line that proceeded you, that we will be ok in our SSes. Every one ...since Nov 2016 ...has been stellar.

Chevy is on the positive side of the 4,000 years of evolution speratating the two.

The chassis is the only thing better IMO. And even then, the PP1 is more comparable to a base SS, and the PP2 to the 1LE. The H2H you linked was a 1LE vs PP1. If someone tried to buy the PP1 suspension from Ford Performance it's actually marketed as a street suspension, not track. The SS is a bit faster around a track than the PP1, and the 1LE and PP2 are about the same since tests have gone both ways and no direct H2H same day/driver. I know reviews have shown drivers generally like the feel and balance of both SS trims better than both GT trims. And I'm ok with that, too, because I don't track my PP1. It does well on the street for me.

That said, for me, compared to the '18 SS, the '18 GT PP1 looks better, sounds better, has better livability (better visibility, larger back seat and trunk), had more safety tech options in '18, had the A10, and I prefer the Mustang interior design/look over the Camaro. Not to mention, I really, really like the black PP1 wheels and tire combo in lieu of a 5 spoke style wheel. When I was looking in 18 the Camaro had the A8 and less safety tech options.

Mustang carries more name recognition to regular folk (reference the thread where Camaros get called Mustangs by non car folks), but that wasn't a deciding factor at all, just something I've noticed since I got the car.

It's all about how a car makes you feel. To me, the 18+ GT got "it", for me. I also really like the DOHC Gen 3 coyote engine. 5.0 making 460+ hp is very impressive and sounds crazy good and pulls hard at 7000+ rpm. I love that I can rev to say, 5000 rpm, without even straining the engine, since I'm only 2/3 of the way to redline. I remember how my 87 TPI Z28 had a 5000 rpm redline and really ran out of steam.

Anyway, to each his own. Those are all subjective things. Don't get me wrong, I like the SS and ZL1, and always liked them better than the Mustang, until 2018.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

The chassis is the only thing better IMO. And even then, the PP1 is more comparable to a base SS, and the PP2 to the 1LE. The H2H you linked was a 1LE vs PP1. If someone tried to buy the PP1 suspension from Ford Performance it's actually marketed as a street suspension, not track. The SS is a bit faster around a track than the PP1, and the 1LE and PP2 are about the same since tests have gone both ways and no direct H2H same day/driver. I know reviews have shown drivers generally like the feel and balance of both SS trims better than both GT trims. And I'm ok with that, too, because I don't track my PP1. It does well on the street for me.

That said, for me, compared to the '18 SS, the '18 GT PP1 looks better, sounds better, has better livability (better visibility, larger back seat and trunk), had more safety tech options in '18, had the A10, and I prefer the Mustang interior design/look over the Camaro. Not to mention, I really, really like the black PP1 wheels and tire combo in lieu of a 5 spoke style wheel. When I was looking in 18 the Camaro had the A8 and less safety tech options.

Mustang carries more name recognition to regular folk (reference the thread where Camaros get called Mustangs by non car folks), but that wasn't a deciding factor at all, just something I've noticed since I got the car.

It's all about how a car makes you feel. To me, the 18+ GT got "it", for me. I also really like the DOHC Gen 3 coyote engine. 5.0 making 460+ hp is very impressive and sounds crazy good and pulls hard at 7000+ rpm. I love that I can rev to say, 5000 rpm, without even straining the engine, since I'm only 2/3 of the way to redline. I remember how my 87 TPI Z28 had a 5000 rpm redline and really ran out of steam.

Anyway, to each his own. Those are all subjective things. Don't get me wrong, I like the SS and ZL1, and always liked them better than the Mustang, until 2018.

And that makes perfect sense. The subjective stuff won out over statistical stuff.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

The chassis is the only thing better IMO. And even then, the PP1 is more comparable to a base SS, and the PP2 to the 1LE. The H2H you linked was a 1LE vs PP1. If someone tried to buy the PP1 suspension from Ford Performance it's actually marketed as a street suspension, not track. The SS is a bit faster around a track than the PP1, and the 1LE and PP2 are about the same since tests have gone both ways and no direct H2H same day/driver. I know reviews have shown drivers generally like the feel and balance of both SS trims better than both GT trims. And I'm ok with that, too, because I don't track my PP1. It does well on the street for me.

That said, for me, compared to the '18 SS, the '18 GT PP1 looks better, sounds better, has better livability (better visibility, larger back seat and trunk), had more safety tech options in '18, had the A10, and I prefer the Mustang interior design/look over the Camaro. Not to mention, I really, really like the black PP1 wheels and tire combo in lieu of a 5 spoke style wheel. When I was looking in 18 the Camaro had the A8 and less safety tech options.

Mustang carries more name recognition to regular folk (reference the thread where Camaros get called Mustangs by non car folks), but that wasn't a deciding factor at all, just something I've noticed since I got the car.

It's all about how a car makes you feel. To me, the 18+ GT got "it", for me. I also really like the DOHC Gen 3 coyote engine. 5.0 making 460+ hp is very impressive and sounds crazy good and pulls hard at 7000+ rpm. I love that I can rev to say, 5000 rpm, without even straining the engine, since I'm only 2/3 of the way to redline. I remember how my 87 TPI Z28 had a 5000 rpm redline and really ran out of steam.

Anyway, to each his own. Those are all subjective things. Don't get me wrong, I like the SS and ZL1, and always liked them better than the Mustang, until 2018.

Very good post. For the things that are important to you, Mustang is definitely the best choice. That's a really good way to approach this. Every person who is in the market for these cars has a set of criteria that they want the car to satisfy. Some are willing to trade off certain aspects, others are not.

[Laststandard]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

It's all about how a car makes you feel. To me, the 18+ GT got "it", for me. I also really like the DOHC Gen 3 coyote engine. 5.0 making 460+ hp is very impressive and sounds crazy good and pulls hard at 7000+ rpm. I love that I can rev to say, 5000 rpm, without even straining the engine, since I'm only 2/3 of the way to redline. I remember how my 87 TPI Z28 had a 5000 rpm redline and really ran out of steam.

The new LT1 is quite a different beast. It'll pull right up to it's 6500 rpm redline without an issue.

I felt the opposite on all the subjective stuff, and I knew I'd be taking it to the track.. so Camaro it was. Plus, I really dislike how retro-gimmicky the Mustang interior is.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

The chassis is the only thing better IMO. And even then, the PP1 is more comparable to a base SS, and the PP2 to the 1LE. The H2H you linked was a 1LE vs PP1. If someone tried to buy the PP1 suspension from Ford Performance it's actually marketed as a street suspension, not track. The SS is a bit faster around a track than the PP1, and the 1LE and PP2 are about the same since tests have gone both ways and no direct H2H same day/driver. I know reviews have shown drivers generally like the feel and balance of both SS trims better than both GT trims. And I'm ok with that, too, because I don't track my PP1. It does well on the street for me.

That said, for me, compared to the '18 SS, the '18 GT PP1 looks better, sounds better, has better livability (better visibility, larger back seat and trunk), had more safety tech options in '18, had the A10, and I prefer the Mustang interior design/look over the Camaro. Not to mention, I really, really like the black PP1 wheels and tire combo in lieu of a 5 spoke style wheel. When I was looking in 18 the Camaro had the A8 and less safety tech options.

Mustang carries more name recognition to regular folk (reference the thread where Camaros get called Mustangs by non car folks), but that wasn't a deciding factor at all, just something I've noticed since I got the car.

It's all about how a car makes you feel. To me, the 18+ GT got "it", for me. I also really like the DOHC Gen 3 coyote engine. 5.0 making 460+ hp is very impressive and sounds crazy good and pulls hard at 7000+ rpm. I love that I can rev to say, 5000 rpm, without even straining the engine, since I'm only 2/3 of the way to redline. I remember how my 87 TPI Z28 had a 5000 rpm redline and really ran out of steam.

Anyway, to each his own. Those are all subjective things. Don't get me wrong, I like the SS and ZL1, and always liked them better than the Mustang, until 2018.

The H2H I quoted was for a 2016 2SS vs M4. Motortrend skipped comparing with the GT at that time because there was no comparison.

2016 Camaro SS - 1:22.94
BMW M4 - 1:23.15
https://youtu.be/D87tO7VUs2I

I mentioned the 1LE vs PP1 was a different day (year actually since the Mustang wasn't capable until 2018)

Camaro SS 1LE - 1:20.67
Mustang GT PP1 - 1:23.97

Different day ...yes ...but the PP1 was a full second off the earlier SS lap and was harshly criticized for poor chassis dynamics.

It was important to Chevy that every performance oriented Camaro be fully capably. That means something. Even the SS is a fully capable track car! A mini triple threat. I like that and believe I got tremendous value.
All that put aside ...you own a great car. It looks sexy AF.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by Laststandard

The new LT1 is quite a different beast. It'll pull right up to it's 6500 rpm redline without an issue.

I felt the opposite on all the subjective stuff, and I knew I'd be taking it to the track.. so Camaro it was. Plus, I really dislike how retro-gimmicky the Mustang interior is.

Fair enough. No doubt the current LT1 is different than those old TPI engines and even the 90s LT1s. The Gen 3 Coyote 5.0 redlines at 7500, it's quite fun since I'd never had a car rev that high, much less a V8 that comes close so that. The closest V8 was my 95 Trans Am with aftermarket cam that ran up to 6200-6300 (~500 higher than stock).

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Very good post. For the things that are important to you, Mustang is definitely the best choice. That's a really good way to approach this. Every person who is in the market for these cars has a set of criteria that they want the car to satisfy. Some are willing to trade off certain aspects, others are not.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

No it does matter what the car was designed for. What if someone in a 25K Miata beats your Hellcat time in an auto X? Does that make your hellcat a failure because a 25K car with 526 less HP beat it? Answer the question, don't tip toe around it.

The 350R can still beat plenty of cars around a track. It did beat the Z/28 when compared head to head and it did it for 12K less and with your favorite thing to toss out there, did it with more options LOL. (yes the Z was faster in LL) Now as you and me and hotlap have all agreed it was 100% short sighted by ford to target a car going out of production. And has since been eclipsed by the competition.


There is plenty of cars costing way more than the 350R that it beats around the track. Some examples from lightning lap results. I just pulled cars from the same year the 350R was tested and newer

2016 BMW M4 GTS MSRP 135,195
2016 Porche Cayman GT4 MSRP 84,600
2017 Nissan GTR Track Edition MSRP 128,540
2018 BMW M5 MSRP 102,000
2016 CTS-V MSRP 84,990
2018 Hellcat Widebody MSRP 72,590

Now I am sure some of those cars can beat it in a straightline, but the 350R beats them in the arena it was designed to be in on the track. I just don't think it's fair to criticize a car for not doing something well in an area it wasn't designed to do well in.

There isn't really much in it's price range besides the ZL1 and yes the ZL1 beats it handily. Bravo GM and Chevrolet because that means the ZL1 also beats all those high dollar cars as well.

Again, I'm talking about what the average onlooker would notice or say. And for the record, not many people who watch these cars will even consider what they do in auto-X. They're gonna see you get toasted and that is what they will react to. 100% of people out there would never expect a Hellcat to beat anything in auto-X. I could probably beat a Hellcat on a moped around a track and nobody would bat an eye. But if you show up somewhere in a $67K Shelby and get beat by some kid in a $32K GT then no matter what you say about the Shelby being this or that, you're gonna look bad.

To prove my point, it's kinda like what you said about the R beating cars that cost twice as much. Do you think anybody will take into account that those cars cost as much as they do because they have tons of luxury, better quality materials, way more options as standard, comfort features, and better value retention? No. They will see an expensive BMW getting beat by a Mustang and that is all they'll see. So everything you said just proves exactly my point. That an expensive car getting beat by a cheaper car will always look bad. And the Mustangs are quite notorious for that this Generation.

Originally Posted by shaffe

See that approach doesn't make anysense to me. It makes their package look better if they go from 12.5 to 11.9 then if they go from 12.1 to 11.9. Makes it look like their tune package can drop .6 off.

Not for nothin but these companies aren't sandbagging their cars or posting the slowest runs. They're all out there making ghost runs that nobody else can duplicate and they're making money hand over fist. I'm not saying shit that just comes off the top of my head. I'm telling you what they're actually doing. Evans posted a hero run that nobody else could do and he got more attention from that than anything he has done in his entire life. Steeda, American Muscle, LMR, they did the same thing and look at how many people bought their "Track Packages" and this or that. They are doing exactly what I said they are and it is working for them. So how can you disagree when that is what they're all doing?

[Ethanolic]

I forgot about the American Muscle 11.97 pass, so that makes 3 bone stock 11 second passes we have to ignore and AM’s 11.97 on 235 all seasons blows the GT* nonsense out of the water also.

LaLa land.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Ethanolic

I forgot about the American Muscle 11.97 pass, so that makes 3 bone stock 11 second passes we have to ignore and AM’s 11.97 on 235 all seasons blows the GT* nonsense out of the water also.

LaLa land.

Right...and they just so happen to sell shit for the GT also. How convenient. And it just so happens that nobody else can do it on 235s either. Figures. The funny thing is how gullible people become when someone who just so happens to sell products always have ghost results. Keep chasing.

[Ethanolic]

You’d think with so many sales riding on their results they would claim the car was faster than an 11.97 or a 12.02. I mean if Cars.com went 11.9 surely they could cheat their way to a faster time or at least run the car in mineshaft air... Amateurs.

LaLa land

[BlaqWhole]

Mustangs are the only "11" second cars that always run mid 12s. And the only cars that can do "10s NA with simple boltons easily" but are never seen actually doing it. Freakin ghost watching.

Originally Posted by Ethanolic

You’d think with so many sales riding on their results they would claim the car was faster than an 11.97 or a 12.02. I mean if Cars.com went 11.9 surely they could cheat their way to a faster time or at least run the car in mineshaft air... Amateurs.

LaLa land

I have no idea WTF you just said...