[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I believe it was a GTR and it destroyed the ring. It was built...but in it's defense, it was raining that day and they still put up a phenomenal time. I think they put up the 4th best time...in the rain. I think...

Back to Ford. Even if they never did any of this with times or whatever they also didn't come out way ahead of time talking about how the car isn't built for this or that. It's their statements that has me thinking they're trying to duck. If it was just business as usual then they wouldn't need to come out with all these statements.

OK I see where you are coming from. I guess for me since they haven't really ever done it in the past it's not that big of a deal for me.

Originally Posted by hotlap

I’m just asking that Ford fans apply the same standard to the GT500 as you did the ZL1. You said ...of course the base ZL1 should beat the GT350R, look at its power advantage. The GT500 will have an identical power advantage over the ZL1.

We all know that’s not going to happen because power is only part of the equation. A ZLE would put laps on a GT350R. You’re all hoping the GT500TP can eek out a win against the ZLE even with a large power advantage.

Well I believe at the time we saw that head to head coming, we had seen how good the SS 1LE was on a track already correct? I believe many probably based that logic on well if the SS 1LE is this good, adding extra power to it is only going to make it fast becuase if the ZL1 wasn't faster than it would have been a failure

Originally Posted by waterman

VIR Grand Course layout, production car record;

2019 ZR1 ZTK: 2:37.25. Driver, Jim Mero; occupation, ride and handling engineer. Cost $135K+.

2018 Ford GT: 2:38.62. Driver, Billy Johnson; occupation, professional race car driver. Cost $475K+.

Different day, yes. Different conditions, likely yes. GT mid Autumn 2017, ZR1 early winter 2018, likely 2-3 months apart. And yes, this was not officially posted by Ford. Yet Ford could and did not block it's release either. Too busy boasting about accidently beating the Viper ACR MkV's record.

Just saying.

That's the difference. When GM sets a lap record, or posts a blistering fast time you get an official statement/something official from GM. You don't get that from Ford that's the difference

Originally Posted by ST1LE

I dont think anybody looking at what Ford has done this Gen would draw the conclusion that Ford was trying to compete, and that is the intended message you responded to.

Ford is doing what needs to be done to sell cars, and they are kickin tons of ass at that. Performance clearly is not the top priority for a Mustang buyer, and Ford knows that. They have executed the goal of selling Mustangs extremely well.

And that's the ultimate goal is to sell vehicles

Originally Posted by newmoon

I agree with all of this to some point. The PP2 can run with the 1LE as reviewed, although for very limited laps. Failure on Fords part for not including coolers.

I am sure they had a valid financial reason not to do so, including not stepping on the 350s toes. Now that the 19 GT350 includes significant improvements to make it faster, which will separate it from the PP2 and 1LE, you may see Ford decide to include the coolers on the PP2.

The valid reason is this.

GT500 got delayed, GT350 production extended, GT PP2 basically gets trickle down everything minus voodoo and trans, PP2 gets to close to GT350, PP2 gets handicapped, 2019 GT350 gets upgrades to tires, aero, and magenride tuning to widen gap between GT350 and GT PP2. GT500 arrives and GT350 can ride of into sunset, PP2 can hopefully get properly equipped with coolers and not worry about out lapping the 350 because it will be retired

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by shaffe

The valid reason is this.

GT500 got delayed, GT350 production extended, GT PP2 basically gets trickle down everything minus voodoo and trans, PP2 gets to close to GT350, PP2 gets handicapped, 2019 GT350 gets upgrades to tires, aero, and magenride tuning to widen gap between GT350 and GT PP2. GT500 arrives and GT350 can ride of into sunset, PP2 can hopefully get properly equipped with coolers and not worry about out lapping the 350 because it will be retired

That would make it PP3...and as stated the 1LE has remained unchanged the entire time.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by V8 Fan

That recall does NOT affect ALL GT350s. My R was built after the affected date range. So, you were yet again being disingenuous by stating that ALL GT350s were recalled.

I wasn't being "disingenuous". I simply did not care enough to read the entire thing. Back when we first discussed this a year ago it was all of them...at that time. So that is the info I was going off of. If Ford did something to address the issue on the newer ones then good for them. But it shouldn't have been an issue in the first place.

Originally Posted by V8 Fan

Where in the world are you getting that Ford extended the S550 program?? Stop telling lies.

Lies?
https://www.hotcars.com/ford-mustang-7th-gen-delayed/

Here it is right on your favorite forum too:
https://www.mustang6g.com/report-7th...nches-in-2021/

CJ Pony Parts reported on it:
https://www.cjponyparts.com/resources/news/2021-mustang

Another report, this one by Auto Blog:
https://www.autoblog.com/2018/08/28/...-delayed-2021/

So we're all liars? Funny how you weren't aware of this.

Originally Posted by V8 Fan

The entire lineup has been a failure? According to whom? Being the continual sales leader of a segment doesn't sound like a failure to me.

Sales don't matter to me. Performance wise, reliability wise, and everything in between from keeping up with the competition to offering comparable vehicles of comparable performance with similar options...Ford has been in dead last for the majority of the S550's life-time. It started out as the slowest of the Big Three's best offerings. It's had multiple incidents of driveline failures. Along with many other issues like axles snapping, the first of the 18s snapping driveshafts in testing, engine oil consumption problems, and more that I won't get into. Most of us here are very well aware of all the problems that Ford has had with the S550 Mustangs so there isn't any need to go over it yet again.

Originally Posted by shaffe

And that's the ultimate goal is to sell vehicles

The ultimate goal is to make a profit. You can sell vehicles all day. But if your profit margins are too low then sales figures won't matter...or you'd have to sell even more.

I'll agree that Ford does sell a lot. But I also think that is due to them having Mustangs that are cheap enough that they can offer some very low deals on them. The Camaro doesn't seem to have that type of strategy. Maybe GM will start to offer some cheaper versions or trim levels so they can get these cars into more hands. Maybe they make enough off the ones that do sell that it isn't worth addressing. None of us knows the answer for sure.

[Deki]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Sales don't matter to me. Performance wise, reliability wise, and everything in between from keeping up with the competition to offering comparable vehicles of comparable performance with similar options...Ford has been in dead last for the majority of the S550's life-time.

The problem is, to Ford, sales are the only thing that matters. And as long as they are making money hand over fist, they have no reason to make the mustang any better, which ultimately does not hurt the average car buyer, but it does hurt the performance enthusiasts, and makes the dedicated hard core track guys switch camps, since they can go and get a competitive product at a much lower price, without having to go and spend money on aftermarket parts to make the car last through a track day. The problem is, those people are a very small majority and they don't make a dent in over all sales. I almost bought a 1LE, because objectively, it is a better car in every way. Steering is better, balance is better, better brakes, more torque, much better transmission, includes all necessary equipment to perform at the track without getting into limp mode...and if I did more than 3 track days a year (in a good year), it definitely would have been my choice. Alas, there are other factors when it came to buying a sporty 2+2 coupe, and I ended up with the 18 GT.

[kttxz06]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

what source are supposed to use? your fantasies?

the Z28 killed the 1LE at the LL and the 350R killed the Z28 at the Ring so how do you come up with the 1LE being remotely close to the 350R. Its laughable.

Are you comparing the 350R to the SS1LE? Cus it doesn't even sniff the Zl1 1LE which is it's direct competitor. I don't think anyone on here thinks the SS1LE would get the R on the track. I know I wouldn't.

[kttxz06]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

At $5K over I'd probably swallow my pride and buy one. I have a call out to my dealership too. We'll see what they hit me with. I really want a M5, Z06, ZR1, X6M, or GTR tho. But if it's reasonable enough then I'll settle for a GT500.

We've come to the conclusion that he was talking about a base. No way is he going to do $5k on the carbon package, which is what I want.

[kttxz06]

Originally Posted by mlee

He'll get that extra 5k on your trade in. Depreciation on that 350 will be killer and he knows it.

Nah, I done well for a change. Got my '18 w/900 miles on it for $52.9 so. I think i'll come out even honestly. Or I might lose a grand or 2. No biggie.

[kttxz06]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

It beat the Hellcat up until the Widebody came out in 2018. And that is a $7,000 option. Again, another car that needed significant changes and costs significantly more money that can finally beat an unchanged Camaro. At that the Camaro is closer to the Hellcat in a straight line than the Hellcat can ever come close to on a course.

What I don't get is that you criticize the ZL1 for not being able to beat a car that is designed only for straight line acceleration. But the ZL1 beats the GT350R which is designed only for the track and that's not good enough. The R can't even get close to the Hellcat or, putting it on equal ground, even the M6 ZL1 in a straight line. But according to you that's ok because the Shelby isn't a straight line car. I said it before, your criticisms are extremely biased and are only focused on the ZL1's 1 area where it isn't the best...not any other car for their multitude of inadequacies, just the ZL1 for 1 area. When it comes to the Hellcat all that matters to you is straight line and how the less powerful unchanged ZL1 which wasn't designed for straight line hasn't done an 11 flat in a reviewed test. Then you flip flop with the GT350(R) and all of a sudden straight line doesn't matter anymore because now it's all about how the ZL1 beat the R by "only" X amount of time.

So by your assessment of the ZL1, you should disagree with my previous post about how the GT500 shouldn't have to beat the Redeye and the ZLE. Especially given that it had way more time in development than it's two competitors put together.

Shi*****. Fanboys are back out again. It was nice and quiet. I mean, come on. I have the guy on block, so I can see what he's typing when you quote him. haha.


Did he say that the R would get the ZL1 1LE? Really? I have a GT350 and sorry to tell Ford fanboys out there, but the Zl1 will literally space shuttle gap the living hell out of the the 350.



But, i give the 350 the edge on the fun factor as a daily. But, let's be clear. IT WILL NEVER..............NEVER..............sniff the bumper of the Zl1 at the drag, street, or road track. And def not on a roll race.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by kttxz06

Are you comparing the 350R to the SS1LE? Cus it doesn't even sniff the Zl1 1LE which is it's direct competitor. I don't think anyone on here thinks the SS1LE would get the R on the track. I know I wouldn't.

He won't be able to answer you...dude got banned, lol!!

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by kttxz06

We've come to the conclusion that he was talking about a base. No way is he going to do $5k on the carbon package, which is what I want.

I've gone back and forth over this in my head. Although $5K isn't a big deal at where this car should MSRP at it still isn't just a small chunk of change. And I didn't get this far in life by paying more for something than it's worth. I keep thinking that 5 Gs will put this car in the range of a Z06. And do I think it is worth Z06 money? Nah. So I'm not sure what Imma do when the time comes.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by kttxz06

Are you comparing the 350R to the SS1LE? Cus it doesn't even sniff the Zl1 1LE which is it's direct competitor. I don't think anyone on here thinks the SS1LE would get the R on the track. I know I wouldn't.

I'm pretty sure he was comparing the SS 1LE and not the ZL1E.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I've gone back and forth over this in my head. Although $5K isn't a big deal at where this car should MSRP at it still isn't just a small chunk of change. And I didn't get this far in life by paying more for something than it's worth. I keep thinking that 5 Gs will put this car in the range of a Z06. And do I think it is worth Z06 money? Nah. So I'm not sure what Imma do when the time comes.

How about keep what you have instead of chasing every next greatest thing. When you get close to retirement you will be glad you did. I decided a few years back to stop that nonsense and my bank account is much happier.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by newmoon

How about keep what you have instead of chasing every next greatest thing. When you get close to retirement you will be glad you did. I decided a few years back to stop that nonsense and my bank account is much happier.

Well those are very wise words newmoon. I do think that I should just keep the cars I have, pay them off, then get something else and stash the ones I have paid off. In 20 years I'll probably have a really awesome collection...plus it'll be better for my pockets. But then again, this is a passion and a sport. So practicality sometimes takes a back seat to desire. Not that it's a good thing.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by newmoon

How about keep what you have instead of chasing every next greatest thing. When you get close to retirement you will be glad you did. I decided a few years back to stop that nonsense and my bank account is much happier.

Being responsible isnt fun though!